Wisconsin lawmakers are missing in action

[Reba]

Well, excuuuuuse me!

I was correcting craigm26, not you, silly!

 

[webexplorer]

Actually, do you ever thought about retired people now work as a second job nowadays? They do.

They are earning so much money that you ever imagined. Let's say, in a bottom general, that their salary makes 60,000 a year which is not included a second job's salary.

In reality, many retired people already took advantage of their pension and second job at the same time while there are no available jobs for other people.

This is probably why the government makes a division not to bring this up yet.

 

[saywhatkid]

One more comment about unions and political parties; when I was in a union, voting Democrat pissed off all the NRA people. For those scoring at home, I would say the split between parties at election time was very similar to the general public. Never underestimate the love of gun freedoms by the blue collar crowd.

 

[nobody456]

 

[Jiro]

 

[darkdog]

Reading one of the newest dispatches about this: Wisconsin governor rejects negotiations on controversial budget bill - CNN.com



So, the protesters have already agreed to the cuts in wages and benefits. Then this really is just a ploy to bust the unions, and the more Walker and the corporate thugs backing him try to lie about it, the worse they look. How exactly will not getting rid of the collective bargaining rights lead to thousands of layoffs? That doesn't make any sense at all to me.

Stay strong, Wisconsin.

That article doesn't do a good job explaining Walker's point. George Stephanopolous asked him about it and he basically said that the school districts and local municipalities will still have to bargain with the unions. If the local districts don't have the leverage to make the cuts they need to make, the state will have to contribute help them out, and then they're back to an unbalanced budget and having to lay off teachers. In other words, he's not exactly trusting that the unions will go easy on the local districts. He speaks to his own experience as a county supervisor trying to negotiate with unions who refused to budge which led to hundreds of lay offs.

Besides, the whole reason they're in this mess in the first place is because of the excessive power the unions have. Even if it were possible to solve the current budget crisis without rescinding collective bargaining rights, they'd still end up in this same position down the road. It's called kicking the can.

One more comment about unions and political parties; when I was in a union, voting Democrat pissed off all the NRA people. For those scoring at home, I would say the split between parties at election time was very similar to the general public. Never underestimate the love of gun freedoms by the blue collar crowd.

Exactly my point. Nobody should be forced to pay dues to a private political organization. It's a corrupt system. Today, Democrats fled the state of Indiana to avoid a vote on a bill that would stop the system of having workers automatically join a union and pay dues. They are corrupt.

 

[TXgolfer]

Maybe not for the teachers yet, but I think it made more people try to understand their viewpoints. It could help in the long run.

Or hurt

 

[Foxrac]

That article doesn't do a good job explaining Walker's point. George Stephanopolous asked him about it and he basically said that the school districts and local municipalities will still have to bargain with the unions. If the local districts don't have the leverage to make the cuts they need to make, the state will have to contribute help them out, and then they're back to an unbalanced budget and having to lay off teachers. In other words, he's not exactly trusting that the unions will go easy on the local districts. He speaks to his own experience as a county supervisor trying to negotiate with unions who refused to budge which led to hundreds of lay offs.

Besides, the whole reason they're in this mess in the first place is because of the excessive power the unions have. Even if it were possible to solve the current budget crisis without rescinding collective bargaining rights, they'd still end up in this same position down the road. It's called kicking the can.


Exactly my point. Nobody should be forced to pay dues to a private political organization. It's a corrupt system. Today, Democrats fled the state of Indiana to avoid a vote on a bill that would stop the system of having workers automatically join a union and pay dues. They are corrupt.

I disagree, I believe that businesses or workplaces are free to form the union and require employees to join union and pay dues. If you want to avoid so go work at McDonald's or Target, they are union-free workplace, known as open shop.

 

[Beowulf]

Or hurt

O ye of little faith!

 

[Beowulf]

I disagree, I believe that businesses or workplaces are free to form the union and require employees to join union and pay dues. If you want to avoid so go work at McDonald's or Target, they are union-free workplace, known as open shop.

Don't underestimate the power of unions. In the postwar years they benefited not only their own members but also were important to the whole community for aid to education, housing, civil rights, etc.. In those days they had muscle and were heard and heeded. They have lost their clout in recent decades, and if they were as strong now as they were in the 50's and 60's, we most likely wouldn't have seen tax cuts and deregulation run amok like they have. Support your local Union.

 

[TWA]

That article doesn't do a good job explaining Walker's point. George Stephanopolous asked him about it and he basically said that the school districts and local municipalities will still have to bargain with the unions. If the local districts don't have the leverage to make the cuts they need to make, the state will have to contribute help them out, and then they're back to an unbalanced budget and having to lay off teachers. In other words, he's not exactly trusting that the unions will go easy on the local districts. He speaks to his own experience as a county supervisor trying to negotiate with unions who refused to budge which led to hundreds of lay offs.

Eh, I think that's more scare tactics than anything. The whole point of a union is to protect its workers. In tough economic times when there are no alternatives, unions will ease on their demands. They're not going to put their workers out of a job (yes, it has happened before, I concede, but it is not typical of unions to hurt their workers just to score political points). Saying that taking away their collective bargaining power is necessary to protect jobs and workers is just false and reeks of ulterior motives.

Exactly my point. Nobody should be forced to pay dues to a private political organization. It's a corrupt system. Today, Democrats fled the state of Indiana to avoid a vote on a bill that would stop the system of having workers automatically join a union and pay dues. They are corrupt.

Funnily enough, governor Mitch Daniels supports the democrats in this effort. he doesn't support their agenda, but he supports their right to walk out and also feels that the republicans are trying to pass unnecessary legislature.

He might be just trying to score political points, but I'm very impressed with his courage to stand up to his own party and tell them they're out of line with this bill. Very different approach than Governor Walker.

For reading: http://dailycaller.com/2011/02/22/i...nes-to-support-gop-pushed-right-to-work-bill/

 

[darkdog]

Eh, I think that's more scare tactics than anything. The whole point of a union is to protect its workers. In tough economic times when there are no alternatives, unions will ease on their demands. They're not going to put their workers out of a job (yes, it has happened before, I concede, but it is not typical of unions to hurt their workers just to score political points). Saying that taking away their collective bargaining power is necessary to protect jobs and workers is just false and reeks of ulterior motives.

We'll see what happens at the end of this week. If they don't pass a budget bill by the end of this week, the state will either have to default or start laying people off. Of course, they can't pass a bill if they can't form a quorum.

Funnily enough, governor Mitch Daniels supports the democrats in this effort. he doesn't support their agenda, but he supports their right to walk out and also feels that the republicans are trying to pass unnecessary legislature.

He might be just trying to score political points, but I'm very impressed with his courage to stand up to his own party and tell them they're out of line with this bill. Very different approach than Governor Walker.

For reading: Mitch Daniels | declines support GOP right-to-work bill | Wisconsin protests | The Daily Caller - Breaking News, Opinion, Research, and Entertainment

You're talking about the guy that stripped away all collective bargaining rights for public sector unions on his first day of office. That's much farther than what Walker's doing. One of Daniels' chief concerns for what the legislature is doing now is that he didn't campaign on this. The same can't be said for Walker.

As far as his comments go, he did some "clarification" today. I don't know if he was taken out of context in the first place, didn't word it clearly, or is just being a weasel. Either way, he didn't pull any punches on walking out today.

"The House Democrats have shown a complete contempt for the democratic process. The way that works—as we all learned in grade school—is that if you seek public office, you come, do your duty, you argue, you debate, you amend if you can, you vote ‘no’ if you feel you should. If you are not successful, you go home and take your case to the voters. You don’t walk off the job, take your public paycheck with you, and attempt to bring the whole process to a screeching halt. You know, if they persist, the Democratic Party of Indiana will need a rebranding effort because this is as anti-democratic as behavior can be.

“All that said, I think they deserve another chance. Let the heat of the moment cool, I hope. Maybe if their leadership doesn’t have a conscience about the unconscionable things they’ve done, maybe individual members do. But I do hope that having made their point, scored one victory on the big issue, they will decide to come back to work. Let’s do the people’s business, together.

“I can tell you that I don’t know what will happen; I don’t know how we’ll proceed. I can tell you what won’t happen. We will not be bullied or blackmailed out of pursuing the agenda we laid in front of the people of Indiana. That agenda is going to get voted on.

“If it takes special sessions from now to New Year’s, we will hold them and we will send the bill to Leader Bauer and to the Democratic Party of Indiana. I see no reason for that to be necessary. They can come back, and I hope they will tomorrow. We can just get on with business, and that is what I would appeal to them to do. I hope as a whole group, if not then, perhaps individuals in the caucus who have gone along -- because that is what good caucus members do -- may decide their conscience tells them they should do their duty instead.”

 

[TWA]

Very interesting how he is totally changing his tune. I thought it was clear as day what he said yesterday and not taken out of context. Guess he was just mad at his party for not following his wishes and fired off some rounds he shouldn't have? Now he's coming out swinging to save face?


Shucks, and just when I was starting to warm up to him...

 

[darkdog]

Very interesting how he is totally changing his tune. I thought it was clear as day what he said yesterday and not taken out of context. Guess he was just mad at his party for not following his wishes and fired off some rounds he shouldn't have? Now he's coming out swinging to save face?


Shucks, and just when I was starting to warm up to him...

I found the transcript here. Sounds to me like he was saying he was fine with them walking away to make a point but he wants them to come back.

Anyway, out of curiosity, are you fine with legitimizing this tactic in a representative democracy? Ed Morrissey has a great piece in The Week that sums up the danger to democracy better than I can after midnight. For your reading pleasure: The real threat to democracy in Wisconsin - The Week

 

[TWA]

I found the transcript here. Sounds to me like he was saying he was fine with them walking away to make a point but he wants them to come back.

Anyway, out of curiosity, are you fine with legitimizing this tactic in a representative democracy? Ed Morrissey has a great piece in The Week that sums up the danger to democracy better than I can after midnight. For your reading pleasure: The real threat to democracy in Wisconsin - The Week

I think walking out and refusing to participate in legislature that is fundamentally wrong and anti-American (which taking away collective bargaining rights is, IMO) is a valid tool, but should only be used in extreme circumstances. Using it for just any instance would trivialize it, and trivialize our democratic process. Have the people in Wisconsin and Indiana already pushed it to that point? I don't think so, but we are close. Keep in mind, though, that the republicans did pretty much the same thing in congress, saying they will block any legislature until they got their tax cuts. That is pretty much the same thing as a walk-out to me.

But, the problem isn't solely the tactics; it's with the fundamental flaw in our two-party system. There are not enough voices, not enough variety that forces TRUE compromise in our government. It's just how much each party can get without giving up anything in return. Jon Stewart put it best during his Rally to Restore Sanity. He showed that, everyday, Americans of all different backgrounds, race, and creeds set aside their differences to get work done and make this country work. The only place they don't do it, is in Washington, DC.

 

[darkdog]

I think walking out and refusing to participate in legislature that is fundamentally wrong and anti-American (which taking away collective bargaining rights is, IMO) is a valid tool, but should only be used in extreme circumstances. Using it for just any instance would trivialize it, and trivialize our democratic process. Have the people in Wisconsin and Indiana already pushed it to that point? I don't think so, but we are close. Keep in mind, though, that the republicans did pretty much the same thing in congress, saying they will block any legislature until they got their tax cuts. That is pretty much the same thing as a walk-out to me.

Anti-American? No. I don't recall Publius ranting about the dire need for public employees to unionize for the health of the republic. Collective bargaining rights aren't protected in the Constitution. Heck, even FDR strongly opposed the idea of public unions. It may be bad policy, but you're over blowing this as if it is some existential threat to the republic. That is simply not the case. A good portion of the states have right-to-work laws with very weak public unions and yet you don't see teachers and policemen begging in the streets. Come to think of it, I live in a right-to-work state. I think that's probably a big part of the reason why most of the jobs of late have been created here in Texas.

People are going on about how this rolls back a decades old institution, and yet, the Democrats are protesting this by undermining a centuries old institution- democracy. Yes, in a representative democracy like ours, one feature is allowing the minority to have a voice and not allowing the majority to get whatever they want. However, another important feature is the rule of law. If this democracy is to work, our representatives need to follow the rules, and that includes not fleeing the state. Refusing to pass certain types of bills or even filibustering laws is well within the rules. Breaking the rules is a "means justify the ends" approach. I really don't think limited collective bargaining rights for public employee unions justifies a Machiavellian attitude.

 

[Beowulf]

Hmmm. These uprising fevers are reaching a global pitch. I have heard that it is starting in North Korea as well. Breaking the rules there as well, shame shame on them.

 

[Foxrac]

Anti-American? No. I don't recall Publius ranting about the dire need for public employees to unionize for the health of the republic. Collective bargaining rights aren't protected in the Constitution. Heck, even FDR strongly opposed the idea of public unions. It may be bad policy, but you're over blowing this as if it is some existential threat to the republic. That is simply not the case. A good portion of the states have right-to-work laws with very weak public unions and yet you don't see teachers and policemen begging in the streets. Come to think of it, I live in a right-to-work state. I think that's probably a big part of the reason why most of the jobs of late have been created here in Texas.

People are going on about how this rolls back a decades old institution, and yet, the Democrats are protesting this by undermining a centuries old institution- democracy. Yes, in a representative democracy like ours, one feature is allowing the minority to have a voice and not allowing the majority to get whatever they want. However, another important feature is the rule of law. If this democracy is to work, our representatives need to follow the rules, and that includes not fleeing the state. Refusing to pass certain types of bills or even filibustering laws is well within the rules. Breaking the rules is a "means justify the ends" approach. I really don't think limited collective bargaining rights for public employee unions justifies a Machiavellian attitude.

Well, I live in Alabama, that's part of right to work law too and had been kicked in since 1953, compared to 1993 in Texas. The teacher union in here is much stronger and our republican governor support this case as well. I found out that unions are much stronger in public sector workplaces, even some states with right to work law too. Right to work law is joke and it won't make difference on job growth because businesses in non-right to work states are free to form or not form the unions. You can set up the small shop in IL without unionized and make as open shop for employees.

There is Honda assembly plant in Ohio and they are non-union workplace, even Ohio is non-right to work state. That why I'm favor for businesses to make decision to form or not form the unions and when they are closed shop or union shop so they are required to pay due, of course. Unionized workplaces don't want non-union members to take advantage of affordable, better insurance and pension without pay dues so they could fire them in non-right to work states but in right to work states, unionized businesses have to deny the union benefits or offers dedicated benefits for non-union members at high price, that cost more for unionized businesses too.

I think that right wing group, especially Koch Brothers is trying to make states to pass the right to work law to weaken the unions and no longer to be huge contribution to Democratic Party because most of their donation is from unions. I'm sure that Democratic Party will find way to raise the funds without demand on unions.

 

[hellos245]

Im proud the Democrats are sticking up against this bill! Our governor's an idiot, hes even suspended pay for these people because he wants them to come back so they can pass this 'budget' bill. All hes doing is threatening and trying any trick he can to get them to come back. Its absurd!

 

[Reba]

Im proud the Democrats are sticking up against this bill! Our governor's an idiot, hes even suspended pay for these people because he wants them to come back so they can pass this 'budget' bill. All hes doing is threatening and trying any trick he can to get them to come back. Its absurd!

Let's see . . . the governor expects them to do the job for which they were elected and get paid. . .

What a novel concept!