Wisconsin lawmakers are missing in action

[hellos245]

This has been going on for about a week. Most of our schools are shut down. All the teachers are on strike. There are 50,000+ people in the Capitol building everyday protesting.

 

[saywhatkid]

This has been going on for about a week. Most of our schools are shut down. All the teachers are on strike. There are 50,000+ people in the Capitol building everyday protesting.

Now that there is a big snowstorm coming, does this mean the roads will be unplowed?

 

[Reba]

Now that there is a big snowstorm coming, does this mean the roads will be unplowed?

Since the schools are closed anyway, that's one school snow day wasted.

 

[saywhatkid]

Since the schools are closed anyway, that's one school snow day wasted.

If they don't plow from this storm, it will be weeks before some schools can open. Forecasting 12-18" in some locations.

 

[darkdog]

Interesting picture from Egypt about support Wisconsin.
Photo From Egypt: "Egypt Supports Wisconsin Workers." on Twitpic

I wouldn't say he's supporting Wisconsin. He's supporting a special interest in Wisconsin at the expense of the taxpayers of Wisconsin. As an opponent of the unions, I support a much wider constituency of Wisconsin.

Maybe the union people can start huge riots like they had in Egypt. That will show those legislators! :roll:

I think that eye roll means you're kidding. At least I hope it does.

Koch Brothers Behind Wisconsin Effort To Kill Public Unions - Rick Ungar - The Policy Page - Forbes

I knew something fishy was going on. I am changing my mind; I am in complete support of the lawmakers walking out. The Koch brothers are thugs of the highest order. There is no level playing field when they are involved, so there are no rules to play by. They tried to pull this same shit in California with prop 23.

No rules? Lawmakers refusing to do their jobs? Teachers refusing to do their jobs? Doctor's writing fraudulent notes? Having to shut down the legislature because of threats of violence? All of that is now OK because some rich guys participated in the political process? Gee, I think every time George Soros writes a check, I'm gonna break me some windows!

I really don't like debating about unions. There is a reason they came into being.

Because things used to be very different from how they are now.

There is a reason they are now fading. People like the Koch brothers are more concerned about the people upstairs than the people on the floor.

No, because they are hugely unpopular nowadays. People don't want to send their money to corrupt bullies and political hacks. People don't want to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs (i.e. the companies they work for).

We can talk about people and the drive to be wealthy until we are blue in the face, but the real issue becomes greed. The guy on the floor, that decided he would be content to live his life as a 40 hour a week person with limited need for the finer things in life, often bears the brunt of the guy upstairs that commands a salary 500 times the salary of the guy on the floor, yet feels obligated to give himself a 15% wage increase annually, regardless of how the company is doing. Unions were devised to keep things a bit more reasonable, especially in the areas of safety and hours worked. There are some CEOs that despise the union workers intensely. There are also CEOs that would pour hazardous chemicals down the drain, forced overtime, discriminatory promotion practices, etc without a union in place.

Regardless of the merits of your argument about CEOs, there's nobody in this situation making millions of dollars from the labor of the public workers. Who pays their salaries? The taxpayers, most of whom are struggling as it is. These teachers should be grateful they even have a job, especially one with good pay, exceptional benefits, and a 9 month work year. The people who pay their salaries have had to adjust to economic realities. Isn't it kind of pathetic for teachers to skip out on the job and demand that everyone else pay more so they don't have to be exposed to economic reality?

Do unions play fair? Not much. Are they needed? In some cases, yes. Is it fair to require a new employee to join? Maybe not, but it is also unfair about a lot of what new hires are required to do to accept a job; credit checks, drug testing, personality tests, physicals. What do they do with the information they obtain from people that they don't hire? In some cases, they sell it to further the bottom line.

I don't see what drug tests and credit checks have to do with forcing people to pay into a political organization.

 

[TWA]

^^ very impressive display of responding to EVERYTHING. That requires patience. Damn!

Anyway, I don't like George Soros sticking his nose in things too, but there's a difference between the type of policy he funds and what the Koch brothers fund. The Koch bros aren't "participating in the democratic process." They are trying to purchase a government.

 

[Foxrac]

I wouldn't say he's supporting Wisconsin. He's supporting a special interest in Wisconsin at the expense of the taxpayers of Wisconsin. As an opponent of the unions, I support a much wider constituency of Wisconsin.

Not really, the picture says that Egypt supports Wisconsin workers, that all without make more detail.

The protest in Wisconsin is mostly anti-Walker with small portion of pro-Walker Tea Party.

 

[saywhatkid]

Regardless of the merits of your argument about CEOs, there's nobody in this situation making millions of dollars from the labor of the public workers. Who pays their salaries? The taxpayers, most of whom are struggling as it is. These teachers should be grateful they even have a job, especially one with good pay, exceptional benefits, and a 9 month work year. The people who pay their salaries have had to adjust to economic realities. Isn't it kind of pathetic for teachers to skip out on the job and demand that everyone else pay more so they don't have to be exposed to economic reality?


I don't see what drug tests and credit checks have to do with forcing people to pay into a political organization.

My comments are about unions in general. Brushing past the CEOs making 500 times the salary of the people they hire might seem trivial to some, but not to those 500 workers. The testing is required to interview for the job. What happens to this vast pool of extremely personal information that derives from those not hired? There have been jobs I applied for that were sending me all over the area for tests, pokes, prods, and various other exciting fun. They might do this to 50 job applicants. Out of that pool, they hire 5. What about the others? Would you like having all these test results at the disposal of a company that did not hire you? Would you consider it at least possible that some of these job offers exist for the purpose of culling personal information in order to sell it?

Anyhow, getting further from the topic.

 

[Foxrac]

Interesting article.
Why America's teachers are enraged - CNN.com

 

[darkdog]

^^ very impressive display of responding to EVERYTHING. That requires patience. Damn!

Thanks! Although a few years ago, I spent over two hours writing what was probably the longest post at AD and it was all about chemistry. That was the zenith of my patience.

Anyway, I don't like George Soros sticking his nose in things too, but there's a difference between the type of policy he funds and what the Koch brothers fund. The Koch bros aren't "participating in the democratic process." They are trying to purchase a government.

Nah, you just like Soros' policies better than the Kochs', so therefore the Kochs are sinister government purchasers. If you have evidence they're actually bribing officials or doing what it would take to actually purchase a government, you may want to take it to the justice department.

Even if they are doing something wrong, does that really justify everyone else acting like buffoons and thugs? The fact is Scott Walker campaigned on doing exactly what he's doing and the people elected him. He's trying to do just that and the Democrats and unions are acting about as childish as they possibly can.

Not really, the picture says that Egypt supports Wisconsin workers, that all without make more detail.

The protest in Wisconsin is mostly anti-Walker with small portion of pro-Walker Tea Party.

I suppose one could take it to mean he supports the workers who have to pay for the teachers, but given the "One World, One Pain" stuff, I figure he supports the unions.

 

[Reba]

In recent years, teachers have wanted their work to be upgraded to a profession, and they even prefer to be called "educators." However, they want to be union members akin to blue collar factory workers and truck drivers.

Which is it that they do want?

Is it common for salaried white-collar professionals to strike, rally, and picket? What other professions do that?




When I was a school kid, I would have been shocked to see any of my teachers skipping school and angrily screaming in public. I always looked up to my teachers with high regard. To me, they were on a higher plane than us common folk. Maybe that was unrealistic.

 

[TWA]

Nah, you just like Soros' policies better than the Kochs', so therefore the Kochs are sinister government purchasers. If you have evidence they're actually bribing officials or doing what it would take to actually purchase a government, you may want to take it to the justice department.

Tue, I *usually* like the policies Soros supports, but that doesn't mean I support a wealthy and powerful individual's ability to influence elections and policy that apply to the entire country. The problem here is that the bribing is legalized. The Supreme Court made sure of that last year. But that still doesn't mean it's okay. It is unfortunate that some sanctioned aspects of our democratic process have become contradictory to categorical imperatives.

Even if they are doing something wrong, does that really justify everyone else acting like buffoons and thugs? The fact is Scott Walker campaigned on doing exactly what he's doing and the people elected him. He's trying to do just that and the Democrats and unions are acting about as childish as they possibly can.

Striking is part of the democratic process and it's as American as apple pie. I suggest Scott Walker takes a look at the fact that there are 50k+ pissed off people everyday at his capitol who are willing to risk their jobs and livelihood in tough economic times in order to protest this.

 

[Foxrac]

Thanks! Although a few years ago, I spent over two hours writing what was probably the longest post at AD and it was all about chemistry. That was the zenith of my patience.


Nah, you just like Soros' policies better than the Kochs', so therefore the Kochs are sinister government purchasers. If you have evidence they're actually bribing officials or doing what it would take to actually purchase a government, you may want to take it to the justice department.

Even if they are doing something wrong, does that really justify everyone else acting like buffoons and thugs? The fact is Scott Walker campaigned on doing exactly what he's doing and the people elected him. He's trying to do just that and the Democrats and unions are acting about as childish as they possibly can.


I suppose one could take it to mean he supports the workers who have to pay for the teachers, but given the "One World, One Pain" stuff, I figure he supports the unions.

That what I figured about one pain, one world but teachers, prison guards, state employees, nurses, etc are part of workers.

Trade union is part of worker's rights, of course.

 

[Foxrac]

In recent years, teachers have wanted their work to be upgraded to a profession, and they even prefer to be called "educators." However, they want to be union members akin to blue collar factory workers and truck drivers.

Which is it that they do want?

Is it common for salaried white-collar professionals to strike, rally, and picket? What other professions do that?




When I was a school kid, I would have been shocked to see any of my teachers skipping school and angrily screaming in public. I always looked up to my teachers with high regard. To me, they were on a higher plane than us common folk. Maybe that was unrealistic.

There is union strike for white collars, remember about writer strike in 2007 that leading to delaying of TV shows production, even cancellation of some shows to being aired on TV. The union strike for white collar isn't common as blue collar does but I don't know if writers are part of white collar.

Union striking for public school teachers are already illegal in many states, I believe so and they will be face penalty after return to work or unable to return to work after long time of striking. To avoid from penalty on illegal striking, teachers can send send a letter to state governor to stop anti-union bill from passing, send their families to protest in capital for them, join protest during weekend and more thing to do but teachers feel that their governor or state legislative aren't listen to them so they went join strike to bring more attention.

 

[darkdog]

Tue, I *usually* like the policies Soros supports, but that doesn't mean I support a wealthy and powerful individual's ability to influence elections and policy that apply to the entire country. The problem here is that the bribing is legalized. The Supreme Court made sure of that last year. But that still doesn't mean it's okay. It is unfortunate that some sanctioned aspects of our democratic process have become contradictory to categorical imperatives.

The Supreme Court said that corporations and unions can spend money on political advertisements. I was talking about direct bribery like physically handing politicians briefcases of money to support a bill.

I think you assume that public opinion is too easily led by those with the most money for ads or messaging campaigns or whatever. I disagree. George Soros himself seems to agree with me. He said he wasn't going to spend millions of dollars on this election because it would be a waste; public opinion was set against the Democrat party and liberal policies this cycle. Candidates like Fiorina, Whitman, and McMahon tried to win with huge amounts of money from their personal stash and they lost. Liberal groups spent more money combined on the last election than conservative groups and liberals got destroyed at the polls. Simply put, some messages resonate with the public and other messages just fall flat.

Like it or not, Scott Walker campaigned on this, he won fair and square just four months ago, he's trying to do it, and a minority is showing their disdain for our system of government and the choice of the voters.

Striking is part of the democratic process and it's as American as apple pie. I suggest Scott Walker takes a look at the fact that there are 50k+ pissed off people everyday at his capitol who are willing to risk their jobs and livelihood in tough economic times in order to protest this.

Teachers striking illegally by calling in sick in such great numbers that entire school districts have to close down- that's un-American. Frequent and common comparisons of Scott Walker to Hitler, Mubarak, Mussolini, etc.- that's just stupid. Getting unethical doctors to sign phony doctor notes- that's just cowardly and hypocritical (unless they're fine with their students bringing in phony doctor's notes, in which case, they probably shouldn't be teaching). And what are they pissed off about? That they'll have to pay a bit more for their benefits to relieve some of the burden from the struggling taxpayers, many of whom have suffered far worse in recent years. That's just ungrateful.

Don't forget- the governor also represent millions of people who are trying to make ends meet who chose to actually go to work and do their jobs. To forget them and appease thousands of pathetic and unscrupulous protesters would be a shame.

 

[TWA]

The Supreme Court said that corporations and unions can spend money on political advertisements. I was talking about direct bribery like physically handing politicians briefcases of money to support a bill.

I have no evidence. Just paranoia. But just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get me. My point is, though, that our political system allows for legalized bribery. Just because it is legal doesn't make it right. I think we can both agree that lobbyists, on both sides of the aisle, often have more to do with what laws get passed than the will of the people.

I think you assume that public opinion is too easily led by those with the most money for ads or messaging campaigns or whatever. I disagree. George Soros himself seems to agree with me. He said he wasn't going to spend millions of dollars on this election because it would be a waste; public opinion was set against the Democrat party and liberal policies this cycle. Candidates like Fiorina, Whitman, and McMahon tried to win with huge amounts of money from their personal stash and they lost. Liberal groups spent more money combined on the last election than conservative groups and liberals got destroyed at the polls. Simply put, some messages resonate with the public and other messages just fall flat.

You make a good case, and I'd like to agree with you, but we both know that there are plenty of instances where the person with the most cash wins. Like what happened in, um, presidential elections for 2000, 2004, 2008... Yes, you CAN buy elections.

Meg Whitman came close, but she was just outmaneuvered by Brown, who also had a formidable war chest for a governor race.

Teachers striking illegally by calling in sick in such great numbers that entire school districts have to close down- that's un-American. Frequent and common comparisons of Scott Walker to Hitler, Mubarak, Mussolini, etc.- that's just stupid. Getting unethical doctors to sign phony doctor notes- that's just cowardly and hypocritical (unless they're fine with their students bringing in phony doctor's notes, in which case, they probably shouldn't be teaching). And what are they pissed off about? That they'll have to pay a bit more for their benefits to relieve some of the burden from the struggling taxpayers, many of whom have suffered far worse in recent years. That's just ungrateful.

I haven't been paying close enough attention to the situation to know about the comparisons to Hitler, etc. I agree: that's just ridiculous.

But illegal striking? Hmm, I don't really believe striking should ever be considered "illegal." Workers always have the right to refuse to work. This isn't China. Sure, they can be punished, so punish them, but their right to strike is inherent. Also, they are striking for much more than just the benefits issue. They're striking because this is an assault on their right to collective bargaining. Essentially, this is an assault on unionization. People in this country do not get riled up about things this easily. The stakes must be high in order to cause this sort of passion and audacious disregard for rules.

 

[whatdidyousay!]

In recent years, teachers have wanted their work to be upgraded to a profession, and they even prefer to be called "educators." However, they want to be union members akin to blue collar factory workers and truck drivers.

Which is it that they do want?

Is it common for salaried white-collar professionals to strike, rally, and picket? What other professions do that?




When I was a school kid, I would have been shocked to see any of my teachers skipping school and angrily screaming in public. I always looked up to my teachers with high regard. To me, they were on a higher plane than us common folk. Maybe that was unrealistic.

I had teachers that I wish had skipped school every days!

 

[TWA]

Article in Foxrac's post: http://www.alldeaf.com/1771740-post29.html

The article is spot-on. Teachers are being turned into whipping boys left and right. Sure, there are plenty of bad teachers out there, but on the whole, they do a very difficult job for relatively little pay--a job that is, perhaps, the most important job there is.

(CNN) -- Thousands of teachers, nurses, firefighters and other public sector workers have camped out at the Wisconsin Capitol, protesting Republican Gov. Scott Walker's efforts to reduce their take-home pay -- by increasing their contribution to their pension plans and health care benefits -- and restrict their collective bargaining rights.

Republicans control the state Legislature, and initially it seemed certain that Walker's proposal would pass easily. But then the Democrats in the Legislature went into hiding, leaving that body one vote shy of a quorum. As of this writing, the Legislature was at a standstill as state police searched high and low for the missing lawmakers.

Like other conservative Republican governors, including Chris Christie of New Jersey, John Kasich of Ohio, Mitch Daniels of Indiana and Rick Scott of Florida, the Wisconsin governor wants to sap the power of public employee unions, especially the teachers' union, since public education is the single biggest expenditure for every state.

Public schools in Madison and a dozen other districts in Wisconsin closed as teachers joined the protest. Although Walker claims he was forced to impose cutbacks because the state is broke, teachers noticed that he offered generous tax breaks to businesses that were equivalent to the value of their givebacks.

The uprising in Madison is symptomatic of a simmering rage among the nation's teachers. They have grown angry and demoralized over the past two years as attacks on their profession escalated.

The much-publicized film "Waiting for Superman" made the specious claim that "bad teachers" caused low student test scores. A Newsweek cover last year proposed that the key to saving American education was firing bad teachers.

Teachers across the nation reacted with alarm when the leaders of the Central Falls district in Rhode Island threatened to fire the entire staff of the small town's only high school. What got their attention was that Secretary of Education Arne Duncan and President Obama thought this was a fine idea, even though no one at the high school had been evaluated.

The Obama administration's Race to the Top program intensified the demonizing of teachers, because it encouraged states to evaluate teachers in relation to student scores. There are many reasons why students do well or poorly on tests, and teachers felt they were being unfairly blamed when students got low scores, while the crucial role of families and the students themselves was overlooked.

Teachers' despair deepened last August when The Los Angeles Times rated 6,000 teachers in Los Angeles as effective or ineffective, based on their students' test scores, and posted these ratings online. Testing experts warn that such ratings are likely to be both inaccurate and unstable, but the Times stood by its analysis.

Now conservative governors and mayors want to abolish teachers' right to due process, their seniority, and -- in some states -- their collective bargaining rights. Right-to-work states do not have higher scores than states with strong unions. Actually, the states with the highest performance on national tests are Massachusetts, Connecticut, New Jersey, Vermont, and New Hampshire, where teachers belong to unions that bargain collectively for their members.

Unions actively lobby to increase education funding and reduce class size, so conservative governors who want to slash education spending feel the need to reduce their clout. This silences the best organized opposition to education cuts.

There has recently been a national furor about school reform. One must wonder how it is possible to talk of improving schools while cutting funding, demoralizing teachers, cutting scholarships to college, and increasing class sizes.

The real story in Madison is not just about unions trying to protect their members' hard-won rights. It is about teachers who are fed up with attacks on their profession. A large group of National Board Certified teachers -- teachers from many states who have passed rigorous examinations by an independent national board -- is organizing a march on Washington in July. The events in Madison are sure to multiply their numbers.

As the attacks on teachers increase and as layoffs grow, there are likely to be more protests like the one that has mobilized teachers and their allies and immobilized the Wisconsin Legislature.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Diane Ravitch.

 

[Foxrac]

Good Article about the teachers striking: Why America's teachers are enraged - CNN.com

The article is spot-on. Teachers are being turned into whipping boys left and right. Sure, there are plenty of bad teachers out there, but on the whole, they do a very difficult job for very little pay, a job that is, perhaps, the most important job there is.

I already posted same link in my post.
http://www.alldeaf.com/1771740-post29.html

 

[TWA]

I already posted same link in my post.
http://www.alldeaf.com/1771740-post29.html

Um... well, I posted the full text. So

Lol, sorry Foxrac. My bad. I'll link to your post.