Wisconsin lawmakers are missing in action

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Um... well, I posted the full text. So :nana:

Lol, sorry Foxrac. My bad. I'll link to your post.

I decided to not copy and paste anymore because it was messed up on Chrome and that made me to separate the paragraph before submit the post. :lol:

I prefer Firefox for copy and paste but it does not satisfy my overall performance to use Firefox but oh well.

No problem, man.
 
I have no evidence. Just paranoia. But just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get me. ;) My point is, though, that our political system allows for legalized bribery. Just because it is legal doesn't make it right. I think we can both agree that lobbyists, on both sides of the aisle, often have more to do with what laws get passed than the will of the people.

I agree with you on these points. This is why I've argued that public sector unions should be illegal. To quote what I said earlier:

Personally, I think public sector unions should be banned. It was a nice experiment, but it failed. Here's the problem with public sector unions. I think we can all agree it would be wrong, not to mention illegal, for a worker or a union to bribe a company's management into giving higher salaries and benefits. That screws over the company's stakeholders. But with the public sector unions, that's exactly what's happening, except it's legal. Politicians give unions what they want and unions reward politicians with campaign contributions and political support. They both win and the taxpayers get screwed.
I also agree that special interests and lobbyists have too much influence. That's why I'm in favor of reducing the power of the government. You can't outright ban lobbying because it's a constitutionally protected activity. The only thing you can do is lower the incentive to lobby. When Congress has the power to destroy businesses or industries, sending lobbyists is a matter of survival. When they control that much money, of course you're going to have special interests and lobbyists coming to suck at the teet of the government.

You're certainly right about this situation. The people in Wisconsin elected Scott Walker and the Republicans to the legislature. They campaigned on reigning in the unions. Currently, they're unable to do that because the unions (a special interest group) applied pressure and Democrats decided to skip town to help the special interest group.

You make a good case, and I'd like to agree with you, but we both know that there are plenty of instances where the person with the most cash wins. Like what happened in, um, presidential elections for 2000, 2004, 2008... Yes, you CAN buy elections.
Correlation does not equal causation. Looking at 2008, Obama's supporters were a whole lot more excited about Obama than McCain's supporters were about McCain. That means Obama supporters were a lot more likely to send money and to show up on election day. Besides, given the environment, do you really think McCain could have won if only he had twice as many commercials on TV? When politicians lose, they love to blame "messaging". Yes, you need money to get your message out, but if your message doesn't resonate, all the advertising money in the world won't save you.

But illegal striking? Hmm, I don't really believe striking should ever be considered "illegal." Workers always have the right to refuse to work. This isn't China. Sure, they can be punished, so punish them, but their right to strike is inherent.
If a strike is legal, it means the workers can't be fired. An illegal strike means the workers can be fired. A factory strike is one thing. It hurts the bottom line and it sucks for the shareholders and the consumers, but at least it doesn't affect the security of the people, the general stability of society, or the education of children. We can't have cops strike and let the criminals have a field day or have teachers skip out on school and let kids have a field day.

Also, they are striking for much more than just the benefits issue. They're striking because this is an assault on their right to collective bargaining. Essentially, this is an assault on unionization. People in this country do not get riled up about things this easily. The stakes must be high in order to cause this sort of passion and audacious disregard for rules.
Yes, to be fair, that's also one of their big complaints, and I did leave that out before, but the two complaints are connected. They want that right to collective bargaining because they want to continue this dysfunctional arrangement that shields them from economic reality and allows them to legally bribe their way to ever-growing compensation. Either way, it's still about them getting money.

I think the stakes are high because of politics. The unions and the Democratic party have a symbiotic relationship and if a union stronghold like Wisconsin breaks the power of the unions there and it catches on, it could hurt the Democrat party everywhere. That's why the President's OFA group and the Democrat party are sending buses of protesters to this thing- it will have huge repercussions. Now, I don't think hurting the Democrat party should be a motive in this. I think the motive should be fixing a broken system and that's exactly what they're trying to do. On the other side of the coin, I would hope that Democrats would also base their position on what system works best, not what political party it hurts or helps. Luckily, if this poll is any indication, at least 40% already do see it that way: Poll: Public unions a hard sell - Ben Smith - POLITICO.com

Wow, long post. Well, I'm off to bed. Have a good night.
 
This has been going on for about a week. Most of our schools are shut down. All the teachers are on strike. There are 50,000+ people in the Capitol building everyday protesting.

I have been following this because I grew up in Wisconsin from the age of 4 til I was 21. I support what the Democrats are doing. I support all the teachers, especially. Many teachers are losing their positions due to the big budget cuts. So that is one of the reasons the Democrats are doing this.
 
I have been following this because I grew up in Wisconsin from the age of 4 til I was 21. I support what the Democrats are doing. I support all the teachers, especially. Many teachers are losing their positions due to the big budget cuts. So that is one of the reasons the Democrats are doing this.
Many school districts are making sweeping cuts across the board in order to save teacher positions. If all the teachers and staff are willing to take small decreases in benefits, them some additional teachers' jobs can be saved. If the pay and benefits cuts aren't made, then more teachers will be laid off.
 
In recent years, teachers have wanted their work to be upgraded to a profession, and they even prefer to be called "educators." However, they want to be union members akin to blue collar factory workers and truck drivers.

Which is it that they do want?

Is it common for salaried white-collar professionals to strike, rally, and picket? What other professions do that?

:dunno:


When I was a school kid, I would have been shocked to see any of my teachers skipping school and angrily screaming in public. I always looked up to my teachers with high regard. To me, they were on a higher plane than us common folk. Maybe that was unrealistic.

They ARE educators. They EDUCATE (teach) children. And it is a PROFESSION. But many teachers' positions are being eliminated because the schools are being hit hard by the large budget cuts. My foster mom, who is a school psychologist in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, told me that 7 teachers' positions will be eliminated from her school ALONE. (And it is a school I attended as a small child!)
 
They ARE educators. They EDUCATE (teach) children. And it is a PROFESSION. But many teachers' positions are being eliminated because the schools are being hit hard by the large budget cuts. My foster mom, who is a school psychologist in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, told me that 7 teachers' positions will be eliminated from her school ALONE. (And it is a school I attended as a small child!)
They aren't doing much educating while they're out "sick" and screaming at TV cameras.

Do they think that going on strike will save teachers' jobs?
 
(CNN) -- Thousands of teachers, nurses, firefighters and other public sector workers have camped out at the Wisconsin Capitol, protesting Republican Gov. Scott Walker's efforts to reduce their take-home pay -- by increasing their contribution to their pension plans and health care benefits -- and restrict their collective bargaining rights.


I wonder if my dad went to the Capitol. He's a firefighter. Probably not - he's thinking about retiring next year or in a couple of years.
 
Reading one of the newest dispatches about this: Wisconsin governor rejects negotiations on controversial budget bill - CNN.com

One of the missing Democratic state senators, Jon Erpenbach, said all state and local public employees -- including teachers -- have agreed to the financial aspects of Walker's requested concessions on paying more for employee health care and pensions.

"In return they ask only that the provisions that deny their right to collectively bargain are removed," Erpenbach said. "This will solve the budget challenge."

Walker, however, said it was necessary to change the collective bargaining rules because the alternative would be laying off thousands of state employees.

So, the protesters have already agreed to the cuts in wages and benefits. :hmm: Then this really is just a ploy to bust the unions, and the more Walker and the corporate thugs backing him try to lie about it, the worse they look. How exactly will not getting rid of the collective bargaining rights lead to thousands of layoffs? That doesn't make any sense at all to me.

Stay strong, Wisconsin.
 
Many school districts are making sweeping cuts across the board in order to save teacher positions. If all the teachers and staff are willing to take small decreases in benefits, them some additional teachers' jobs can be saved. If the pay and benefits cuts aren't made, then more teachers will be laid off.

Apparently, they already have agreed to this...
 
They aren't doing much educating while they're out "sick" and screaming at TV cameras.

Do they think that going on strike will save teachers' jobs?

If they get enough publicity, yes.
 
bigger and bigger

Being from Wisconsin, i know exactly how this bill hurts and helps. Its not all about the unions, though the unions are in the best interest of the people, ever since they were established so that people can have fair working conditions, 5 day work weeks, etc. They also pulled little boys and girls out of the workforce and put them in school where they belong.

putting unions aside, the bill would cut money from everywhere it needs to be. Fire fighters are protesting right along with teachers. The bill would tear apart the UW-school system, and raise tuition, take school lunch programs from elementary schools, take coverage from domestic partner benefits, and take away planned parenthoods throughout wisconsin (which is not all about abortions, PPH helps women keep their babies and get back on their feet, and provides contraceptives so that there are less unwanted abandoned babies)... and the list goes on. The thing you don't see are the officials taking pay cuts.

So the democrats that are in hiding... we owe them... for giving us time to voice our opinion and try to come to a compromise before all of our rights as american citizens are gone...

Things like Education aren't a privilege, its a necessity and a right that they shouldn't be allowed to take away.
 
So far, they've gotten a lot of publicity. Has anything changed for the teachers?

Maybe not for the teachers yet, but I think it made more people try to understand their viewpoints. It could help in the long run.
 
Being from Wisconsin, i know exactly how this bill hurts and helps. Its not all about the unions, though the unions are in the best interest of the people, ever since they were established so that people can have fair working conditions, 5 day work weeks, etc. They also pulled little boys and girls out of the workforce and put them in school where they belong.

putting unions aside, the bill would cut money from everywhere it needs to be. Fire fighters are protesting right along with teachers. The bill would tear apart the UW-school system, and raise tuition, take school lunch programs from elementary schools, take coverage from domestic partner benefits, and take away planned parenthoods throughout wisconsin (which is not all about abortions, PPH helps women keep their babies and get back on their feet, and provides contraceptives so that there are less unwanted abandoned babies)... and the list goes on. The thing you don't see are the officials taking pay cuts.

So the democrats that are in hiding... we owe them... for giving us time to voice our opinion and try to come to a compromise before all of our rights as american citizens are gone...

Things like Education aren't a privilege, its a necessity and a right that they shouldn't be allowed to take away.

Nice first post! :thumb:
 
Being from Wisconsin, i know exactly how this bill hurts and helps. Its not all about the unions, though the unions are in the best interest of the people, ever since they were established so that people can have fair working conditions, 5 day work weeks, etc. They also pulled little boys and girls out of the workforce and put them in school where they belong.

putting unions aside, the bill would cut money from everywhere it needs to be. Fire fighters are protesting right along with teachers. The bill would tear apart the UW-school system, and raise tuition, take school lunch programs from elementary schools, take coverage from domestic partner benefits, and take away planned parenthoods throughout wisconsin (which is not all about abortions, PPH helps women keep their babies and get back on their feet, and provides contraceptives so that there are less unwanted abandoned babies)... and the list goes on. The thing you don't see are the officials taking pay cuts.

So the democrats that are in hiding... we owe them... for giving us time to voice our opinion and try to come to a compromise before all of our rights as american citizens are gone...

Things like Education aren't a privilege, its a necessity and a right that they shouldn't be allowed to take away.

That's a thoughtful post. While I can see the need for making cuts, I draw the line at doing way with employees' bargaining power power. I must say I don't think this bill is a good idea cuz of what you outlined here.
 
^^ very impressive display of responding to EVERYTHING. That requires patience. Damn! :thumb:

Anyway, I don't like George Soros sticking his nose in things too, but there's a difference between the type of policy he funds and what the Koch brothers fund. The Koch bros aren't "participating in the democratic process." They are trying to purchase a government.

"Money is the root of all evil"... if you have that kind of money to influence votes....that's what pisses me off the most. People should arrive at their own conclusions about which "way" to vote instead of regurgitating Party platforms or sound bites like they're paid to do it.
 
"Money is the root of all evil"... if you have that kind of money to influence votes....that's what pisses me off the most. People should arrive at their own conclusions about which "way" to vote instead of regurgitating Party platforms or sound bites like they're paid to do it.

Actually it is the love of money that is the root of all evil. Just a heads up.
 
Correction:

"For the love of money is the root of all evil."
 
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