Why so many signing systems?

[Buffalo]

well - if a foreigner can learn English, so can ASLer.

that doesnt answer the question

Let us say that you moved to Germany and you had to learn German in order to fit in. Would the German teacher have you say stuff in English but in German syntax order before you learn German??? No? Why not? That is what the hearing educators are doing to the deaf kids. That is why I want to see ASL in school and ASL and English should be kept separated. Those MCEs are a waste of time.

 

[jillio]

Let us say that you moved to Germany and you had to learn German in order to fit in. Would the German teacher have you say stuff in English but in German syntax order before you learn German??? No? Why not? That is what the hearing educators are doing to the deaf kids. That is why I want to see ASL in school and ASL and English should be kept separated. Those MCEs are a waste of time.

That is an excellent point, Buffalo.

 

[Buffalo]

That is an excellent point, Buffalo.

Thanks!

 

[missywinks]

Thank you all for the responses but I am not talking about sign language. As far as I know in the US there is only one sign language and that is ASL. I believe ASL and English to be mutually exculsive languages. Please correct me if I am wrong.

The MCE systems as I understand are suppose to hellp teach English literacy. My question is to why we have so many different MCE's. Furthermore, why are the MCE signs different from the ASL signs? The MCE should use existing ASL signs as the starting point so that a word signed in ASL would be the same as the MCE sign for the same word. Hopefully that clears it up a bit.

I think the MOST important thing when you are trying to teach your child English literacy is to start with attachment and communication. I thank my dad for my literacy skills because he is the one who got me motivated to read books. At the time, he wasn't fluent signer yet but he would use gestures and act out the story in books (he looked goofy but he made me laugh) and while that probably didn't teach me literacy skills but it was what MOTIVATED me to continue reading. I kept getting him to do more and more and my skills increased from that point on and it wasn't long before I started to read on my own. He really made reading fun for me.

Also, incidential learning is very important especially when teaching your child English Literacy. One suggestion: label everything in your house with picture and words. Its a good way to keep your child exposed to english vocab everyday. Also, leave the cc on your t.v. your child might not show interest, but model it, and your child will eventually show interest. For ASL, make sure your child has an opportunity to socialize with deaf peers that use ASL as often as possible. There are many good resources such as the Shared Reading Project which has the English version of the book, and then video tapes with the ASL version of the same book.

The key word is keeping your child MOTIVATED. The more motivated your child is, the more curious he becomes and the more books he will read. Maybe he will become a book worm like me.

Ohhhh, dont forget to model literacy yourself and its practical purposes. I really dont think MCE is necessary....maybe fingerspell the words or create a temporary sign for the vocab for the time-being but I wouldnt waste your energy in learning the system.

Hey....I really admire your motivation in researching what is the best for your child. That shows how motivated you are as a parent and that you want the best for your child.

 

[missywinks]

My daughter's school adds "English Signs" when they need to. They are learning "are", "is", "to", "and", stuff like that. They use them so they can teach reading English. If there were no MCE systems, what would they do?

FJ, we teach the kids English (L2) through their first language ASL (L1). We explain English vocabulary, grammar and rules, word order, reading comprehension, etc through ASL. Why teach a second language (L2) using second language (L2)? My brain would be going OUCH. That would be like learning through a memorizing process rather than understanding the concept as a whole.

There are so many hearing professionals out there who think they know what they are doing. This infuriates me.

 

[shel90]

Let us say that you moved to Germany and you had to learn German in order to fit in. Would the German teacher have you say stuff in English but in German syntax order before you learn German??? No? Why not? That is what the hearing educators are doing to the deaf kids. That is why I want to see ASL in school and ASL and English should be kept separated. Those MCEs are a waste of time.

 

[Mrs Bucket]

This is why ASL must be kept separate from MCEs otherwise young children are set up for failure.

 

[rockdrummer]

My daughter's school adds "English Signs" when they need to. They are learning "are", "is", "to", "and", stuff like that. They use them so they can teach reading English. If there were no MCE systems, what would they do?

That is pretty much what I was asking too. How do you teach english if ASL doesn't have all of the signs of English. I guess they would have to fingerspell them.

 

[rockdrummer]

That is like why is there so many accents' and slang in the English spoken language.

People from All over the USA, speak entirely different.

Certain states speak totally different from other states.

Dunno if I am going off topic or not... but just thought to throw that in.

I don't know if that is a fair comparison. Talking with an accent you would still use the same words. Slang is a whole different story. There is slang in English and ASL.

 

[rockdrummer]

Ask yourself who invented ASL? George Veditz.

Who invented those other & unrecognised languages like SEE, Pidgin and so on? Hearing people who thought they had the best interests at heart only to find out it didn't work.

Not entirely true if my facts are correct. There were deaf people involved with the development of the MCE's

 

[rockdrummer]

Let us say that you moved to Germany and you had to learn German in order to fit in. Would the German teacher have you say stuff in English but in German syntax order before you learn German??? No? Why not? That is what the hearing educators are doing to the deaf kids. That is why I want to see ASL in school and ASL and English should be kept separated. Those MCEs are a waste of time.

that was not the point. Using your example would one German teacher teach me a set of words one way and another German teacher teach me them in another way. No. The word in German for food as example would be taught the same way. I would mouth it and pronounce it the same way. Between ASL and some of the MCE's the sign for the same word is different. So I don't think it is a fair comparision.

 

[rockdrummer]

I think the MOST important thing when you are trying to teach your child English literacy is to start with attachment and communication. I thank my dad for my literacy skills because he is the one who got me motivated to read books. At the time, he wasn't fluent signer yet but he would use gestures and act out the story in books (he looked goofy but he made me laugh) and while that probably didn't teach me literacy skills but it was what MOTIVATED me to continue reading. I kept getting him to do more and more and my skills increased from that point on and it wasn't long before I started to read on my own. He really made reading fun for me.

Also, incidential learning is very important especially when teaching your child English Literacy. One suggestion: label everything in your house with picture and words. Its a good way to keep your child exposed to english vocab everyday. Also, leave the cc on your t.v. your child might not show interest, but model it, and your child will eventually show interest. For ASL, make sure your child has an opportunity to socialize with deaf peers that use ASL as often as possible. There are many good resources such as the Shared Reading Project which has the English version of the book, and then video tapes with the ASL version of the same book.

The key word is keeping your child MOTIVATED. The more motivated your child is, the more curious he becomes and the more books he will read. Maybe he will become a book worm like me.

Ohhhh, dont forget to model literacy yourself and its practical purposes. I really dont think MCE is necessary....maybe fingerspell the words or create a temporary sign for the vocab for the time-being but I wouldnt waste your energy in learning the system.

Hey....I really admire your motivation in researching what is the best for your child. That shows how motivated you are as a parent and that you want the best for your child.

We already do many of those things that you mention. One thing I don't understand is whey you say to make up my own signs. Wouldn't that be just another MCE? And thank you for your admiration. I really do try but as you all know, this is not a black and white area

 

[Daredevel7]

Rockdrummer,

I think the reason why there's so many MCE languages is because they are meant to be temporary. Just a visual means to teach them English. ASL is meant to be a permanent and common language that people use for social interactions. Since MCEs are really for just teaching English, they don't necessarily have to be standardized if that makes sense? Although I am not sure why they don't just show them the picture then the word, instead of showing them the picture, then the sign, then the word.

I barely know anything about MCE's but that's the impression I got. Am I wrong?

 

[rockdrummer]

Rockdrummer,

I think the reason why there's so many MCE languages is because they are meant to be temporary. Just a visual means to teach them English. ASL is meant to be a permanent and common language that people use for social interactions. Since MCEs are really for just teaching English, they don't necessarily have to be standardized if that makes sense? Although I am not sure why they don't just show them the picture then the word, instead of showing them the picture, then the sign, then the word.

I barely know anything about MCE's but that's the impression I got. Am I wrong?

Thanks Vickie, That makes does make some sense to me. Maybe its that some work better than others or maybe it's like others have said here. They evolved because one didn't work so they tried another. To me it really doesn't matter as long as the end result is met. I also understand the difference between sign language and making English visual. The big problem for me is that ASL is very accessible to me but SEE is not so my son and I sometimes confuse eachother by using different signs to communicate. Sometimes he understands my ASL signs and sometimes he doesn't. My recent thread about the sign for the word grass was a result of some miscommunication between us.

 

[Frisky Feline]

I know MCE used to be at the Rochester school for the deaf. It was in a very late 1850's. Then rochester school for the deaf stopped using MCE in a late 1940s'. My old deaf teacher who attended to rochester when he was a kid. He told me some stories about MCE. He got older and learned how to ASL and he loved ASL more and much easier. of course he seldoms used MCE with us in the classroom. once in a while, he was really upset with us, and he used MCE. The reason is that he made us to PAY ATTENTION real hard in the classrom. He is a great teacher. i dont know if he's still alive. eh.

 

[rockdrummer]

I know MCE used to be at the Rochester school for the deaf. It was in a very late 1850's. Then rochester school for the deaf stopped using MCE in a late 1940s'. My old deaf teacher who attended to rochester when he was a kid. He told me some stories about MCE. He got older and learned how to ASL and he loved ASL more and much easier. of course he seldoms used MCE with us in the classroom. once in a while, he was really upset with us, and he used MCE. The reason is that he made us to PAY ATTENTION real hard in the classrom. He is a great teacher. i dont know if he's still alive. eh.

I believe the Rhchester method is where everything is fingerspelled. I can see why that would be difficult and why a system of signs replaced it.

 

[Frisky Feline]

I believe the Rhchester method is where everything is fingerspelled. I can see why that would be difficult and why a system of signs replaced it.

Yes I suppose so. Like the old teacher made us to stare at his fingerspelling for five minutes in the classroom. My eyes were so SORE! Some of us could not make it what he was talking about!

 

[jillio]

Rockdrummer,

I think the reason why there's so many MCE languages is because they are meant to be temporary. Just a visual means to teach them English. ASL is meant to be a permanent and common language that people use for social interactions. Since MCEs are really for just teaching English, they don't necessarily have to be standardized if that makes sense? Although I am not sure why they don't just show them the picture then the word, instead of showing them the picture, then the sign, then the word.

I barely know anything about MCE's but that's the impression I got. Am I wrong?

Funny you should mention that, but the flash card approach is the one I took with my son when he was 2. I had flashcards pasted to everything in the house that had the picture of the object, and the print word. I then ran photo copies of pages of sign language dictionaries, and cut those out and pasted them onto the flashcard. By the age of 3-1/2, he had made the association between the English print word, the sign, and the symbology that meant both represented the thing he wanted to refer to. He could read and understand simple sentence structure by age 4-1/2. The reason for showing the picture, the sign, and then the word is that to a child, a print word is not as readily connected to language as is the sign. They use sign to communicate. They don't use the print word to communicate. Therefore, print must be connected to language in a way they can relate to. Just like in a hearing child, the print word must be connected to a sound to become meaningful. It is all about being in an environment that allows a deaf child to intuitively grasp the function and use of language. That is the foundation for literacy, and for being able to apply what is intuitively known to learning a second language.

 

[rockdrummer]

Funny you should mention that, but the flash card approach is the one I took with my son when he was 2. I had flashcards pasted to everything in the house that had the picture of the object, and the print word. I then ran photo copies of pages of sign language dictionaries, and cut those out and pasted them onto the flashcard. By the age of 3-1/2, he had made the association between the English print word, the sign, and the symbology that meant both represented the thing he wanted to refer to. He could read and understand simple sentence structure by age 4-1/2. The reason for showing the picture, the sign, and then the word is that to a child, a print word is not as readily connected to language as is the sign. They use sign to communicate. They don't use the print word to communicate. Therefore, print must be connected to language in a way they can relate to. Just like in a hearing child, the print word must be connected to a sound to become meaningful. It is all about being in an environment that allows a deaf child to intuitively grasp the function and use of language. That is the foundation for literacy, and for being able to apply what is intuitively known to learning a second language.

That seems like common sense to me and I was amazed that was not the approach the schools took. Associate the picture with the word with the sign. Granted you can't do that for everything but to me it's a great start.

 

[Daredevel7]

Funny you should mention that, but the flash card approach is the one I took with my son when he was 2. I had flashcards pasted to everything in the house that had the picture of the object, and the print word. I then ran photo copies of pages of sign language dictionaries, and cut those out and pasted them onto the flashcard. By the age of 3-1/2, he had made the association between the English print word, the sign, and the symbology that meant both represented the thing he wanted to refer to. He could read and understand simple sentence structure by age 4-1/2. The reason for showing the picture, the sign, and then the word is that to a child, a print word is not as readily connected to language as is the sign. They use sign to communicate. They don't use the print word to communicate. Therefore, print must be connected to language in a way they can relate to. Just like in a hearing child, the print word must be connected to a sound to become meaningful. It is all about being in an environment that allows a deaf child to intuitively grasp the function and use of language. That is the foundation for literacy, and for being able to apply what is intuitively known to learning a second language.

Ah yes, but that's for ASL signs. You are associating a word with the "spoken" aspect. However if MCEs are just for learning English and are not actually to be used as a language itself... that's what I meant. Isn't it kind of pointless?

I mean do people use MCE for actually communicating?