Why so many signing systems?

R

rockdrummer

Guest
:confused: I find it interesting (and frustrating) that there are so many different manual coded english (MCE) systems out there. As an educated adult I find it confusing when one system signs the word one way but another system signs the same word differently. Add to that the difference in some sign language (ASL) signs and MCE signs. I would have to imagine for a child trying to learn it would be a bit confusing as well. What are your thoughts? Which method do you think is the best for what it is designed and intended for? Also if you can think of any other MCE systems I have missed please include them.

Thank you for your time.

Signed English (SE) - American
The term 'Signed English' refers to a much simpler system than SEE1, SEE2, or LOVE. Signed English (occasionally referred to as Siglish) uses ASL signs in English word order, but only 14 grammatical markers. The most common method of Signed English in the US is that created by Harry Bornstein, who worked on the Gallaudet Signed English Project to develop children's books written in both illustrated signs and written English.

Seeing Essential English (SEE1)
Developed in the US in 1966 by a deaf teacher named David Anthony, SEE1 was intended to teach proper grammatical construction by using gestures borrowed from ASL but not in a linguistically logical manner. In SEE1, all compound words are formed as separate signs - instead of using the ASL sign for butterfly, SEE1 places the signs for butter and fly in sequential order. SEE1 also uses the same sign for all homonyms - the same sign is used to sign blue and blew. Many gestures from ASL are initialized in SEE1 - the ASL sign for have is signed with the H handshape in SEE1. Grammatical markers also have signs of their own, including the -ing ending and articles such as the, which are not typically included in ASL. The verb "to be" is unique in SEE1 - is, am, and are are signed in the same way, again using initialization. SEE1 is occasionally referred to as Morphological Sign System (MSS), and it has also been adapted in Poland into Seeing Essential Polish.

Signing Exact English (SEE2)
Main article: Signing Exact English
SEE2 was developed by Gerilee Gustason and Esther Zawolkow in the early 1970s. As an offshoot of SEE1, many features of SEE2 are identical to that code system. Initializations and grammatical markers are also used in SEE2, but compound words with an equivalent ASL sign are used as the ASL sign, as with butterfly. SEE2 is also used in Singapore. About 75% to 80% of SEE2 signs are either borrowed from ASL or are modified ASL signs. As there is no more formal use of SEE1, Signing Exact English is no longer referred to as SEE2, but rather SEE.

Linguistics of Visual English (LOVE)
Developed by Dennis Wampler, LOVE is also quite similar to SEE1 in construction. While most forms of ASL and MCE are transcribed using English glosses, LOVE is written using the notation system developed by William Stokoe.

Conceptually Accurate Signed English (CASE)
CASE, one of the more recently developed forms of MCE, combines the grammatical structure used in Signed English with the use of concepts rather than words, as is done in ASL. It is becoming one of the more common forms of MCE, and has been used in both interpreter training programs and mainstreamed deaf education. The term Sign Supported English (SSE) is sometimes used to refer to the same thing.

Rochester Method
Perhaps the closest type of MCE to written English, the Rochester method involves fingerspelling every word. It was originated by Zenas Westervelt in 1878, shortly after he opened the Western New York Institute for Deaf-Mutes (presently known as the Rochester School for the Deaf). Use of the Rochester method continued until approximately the 1940s, and there are still deaf adults from the Rochester area who were taught with the Rochester method. It has fallen out of favor because it is a tedious and time-consuming process to spell everything manually, though it is still used in some deafblind settings (see tactile signing).

Source: Manually Coded English - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pidgin Sign English
The phrase Pidgin Sign English[5] (PSE, sometimes "Pidgin Signed English") is often used to describe the different contact languages that arise between the English language and either British Sign Language, New Zealand Sign Language, Auslan or American Sign Language, but the term is increasingly falling out of favor.

Source: Contact Sign - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
ASL is the best. It is the language of the Deaf. I am for Bi-Bi education. We didn't invent those other sign language systems. It is the hearings who continually do the experiments on the deaf kids.
 
Well, there are so many MCEs because first one was invented, and when it didn't perform the way it was expected to perform, another one was created that was supposed to make up for the deficits of the first. And on and on. Kind of like re-inventing the wheel. ASL has been there all along. It didn't need to be re-invented.

And, what a confusing mess was made in the process.
 
It's as if ASL isn't' acceptable because it's just too deaf and any alternatives that are more like English is more acceptable.
 
Deaf kids are not rats to be experimented with. Jillio, is there any experiments done on hearing kids. I don't know of anything like that. I'd bet parents would have a cow if there is one going on. So why the silent response to the experiments on deaf kids/language????
 
ASL is a true language complete with its own syntax and grammar rules as opposed to all the other sign languages you mentioned above. Why would you want to teach your child sign language that doesnt really make sense visually?

By teaching your child L1 (ASL), he would be able to learn L2 (English) easier.

But that's just my opinion.
 
ASL is the best. It is the language of the Deaf. I am for Bi-Bi education. We didn't invent those other sign language systems. It is the hearings who continually do the experiments on the deaf kids.

Exactly. Experimenting, experimenting, and experimenting!
 
I think, just an experimental guess, there are reasons to why there are 7+ major dialects of Chinese, but I don't know the exact reason for them all. Demographics and geographies might have to do a big part of it. Wiki (opinionated) states that it may have to do with: "Within China, it is common perception that these varieties are distinct in their spoken forms only, and that the language, when written, is common across the country. Therefore even though China is home to hundreds of relatively unique spoken languages, literate people are usually able to communicate through written language effectively."

官话 Mandarin: The famed standard (similar to how we may view ASL)
吴语 Cantonese: One of the major southern dialects
臺灣閩南語 Taiwanese: A lot of taiwan speaks, but not necessarily all.
Don't know the following personally, but the internet told me more:
吳語 Wu
闽语 Min
湘语 Xiang
客家话 Kejia
赣语 Gan

It doesn't end here, there are more dialects and branches off these somewhere. However, they all share the same written form of language.

Mandarin's became the accepted "standard" of them all, though, similar to how you are describing ASL as the chief one among all.

Just dropping some :2c: observations into here. I know and understand Chinese is a spoken/written language, I'm dropping in to show you it's not exactly one size for all too.. Get those brain matters churning in your head!
Don't look at me for a sign language comparison though, I shouldn't be jumping with my own opinions into there ;).
 
1. these dialects were created and used by hearing people to communicate with other hearing people within their communities - but disadvantage is... their vocabulary and expression are limited to their own context within their society/community so that "farmer" dialect will not work for.... say city people. That's exactly what's wrong with this picture regarding MCEs.
2. multiple sign languages (non-ASL) were created by hearing people for deaf people
3. deaf population is pretty small compared to hearing population - imagine having multiple sign languages for a small deaf population... how chaotic!
 
Me again. I am not an ASL instructor but Im Deaf and I use ASL everyday. I want to give you a simple example to why ASL makes sense to me while the other "sign language" systems do not.

Take the word "run" for example:

1) The water tap is running.

2) My stocking has a run in it.

3) My brother is running for the president position.

4) The photocopier is running.

5) My nose is running.

6) I am running to the store.

As you can see, the word 'run' has several meanings depending on the context. If you were signing in SEE or any other sign language system that you mentioned, there would be only one sign for "run" in all of the contexts. So if I used one sign for run for example, running as in jogging...it would make sense in the sentence, "I am running to the store" but it would NOT make sense in this sentence, "My nose is running". If I used the same sign for run as in jogging, in this sentence then, it would make it look like my nose is running/jogging. Noses do not go jogging! In ASL, I would use a different sign showing a visual concept that my nose is running (booger coming out of my nose) as opposed to my nose jogging.

So if you used SEE or any other sign language system other than ASL, can you imagine how challenging it would be for little children trying to learn and translate the meaning? I remember being exposed to SEE and it was confusing for me.

Again, in ASL, the word run would have a different sign for each meaning so that it makes sense visually and conceptually.

Let me know if I do not make sense! :lol: :wave:
 
Me again. I think I am on a roll tonight. Another point I wanted to make was:

Either you want your child to belong to the deaf world or the hearing world, OR BOTH. If I was a parent, I would probably want my deaf child to belong to both as I would want him/her to socialize with like-peers to have a strong sense of pride and identity as well as know how to function in a hearing world that all of us live in. The language of the Deaf world is ASL and the language of the hearing world is English. So, why bring in all of the other sign language systems/methods in? Where would all of the other sign language systems fit in both worlds? So it only makes sense to focus on ASL and English only.

Good night.
 
I was always taught that the systems were merely and assistive to ASL.

ASL first, any deviation after to assist with total communication.

:)
 
Me again. I think I am on a roll tonight. Another point I wanted to make was:

Either you want your child to belong to the deaf world or the hearing world, OR BOTH. If I was a parent, I would probably want my deaf child to belong to both as I would want him/her to socialize with like-peers to have a strong sense of pride and identity as well as know how to function in a hearing world that all of us live in. The language of the Deaf world is ASL and the language of the hearing world is English. So, why bring in all of the other sign language systems/methods in? Where would all of the other sign language systems fit in both worlds? So it only makes sense to focus on ASL and English only.

Good night.

Agreed.

ASL and English r true languages while the other systems are artificial. Would rather have my child be exposed to true languages.
 
For me as a DB, ASL is my true language and seeing so many DBs as well, ASL is their language as well.

Tactile using ASL is amazing. Fingerspelling is hard using tactile so imagine SEE1 or SEE2 using tactile, there would be so many miscommunications.

I'm lucky because to be able to be L1/L2.. ASL was there for me.

My family has advocated for Bi-Bi as well.
 
I think, just an experimental guess, there are reasons to why there are 7+ major dialects of Chinese, but I don't know the exact reason for them all. Demographics and geographies might have to do a big part of it. Wiki (opinionated) states that it may have to do with: "Within China, it is common perception that these varieties are distinct in their spoken forms only, and that the language, when written, is common across the country. Therefore even though China is home to hundreds of relatively unique spoken languages, literate people are usually able to communicate through written language effectively."

官话 Mandarin: The famed standard (similar to how we may view ASL)
吴语 Cantonese: One of the major southern dialects
臺灣閩南語 Taiwanese: A lot of taiwan speaks, but not necessarily all.
Don't know the following personally, but the internet told me more:
吳語 Wu
闽语 Min
湘语 Xiang
客家话 Kejia
赣语 Gan

It doesn't end here, there are more dialects and branches off these somewhere. However, they all share the same written form of language.

Mandarin's became the accepted "standard" of them all, though, similar to how you are describing ASL as the chief one among all.

Just dropping some :2c: observations into here. I know and understand Chinese is a spoken/written language, I'm dropping in to show you it's not exactly one size for all too.. Get those brain matters churning in your head!
Don't look at me for a sign language comparison though, I shouldn't be jumping with my own opinions into there ;).


Dialects do not cross languages. All dialects of Chinese are still Chinese. ASL has different dialects. It is known as regionality in sign. English has different dialects. They are still ASL and still English.

MCEs are not different dialects. Mandarin may be the standard dialect in Chinese. But MCEs are not dialects of ASL. They are English, pure and simple. It is English presented in a different mode. The dialects of ASL are those differences seen in regional variations, just as, in English, there are variations in word use and accent by region, or in Chinese, there are variations by region.
 
Me again. I am not an ASL instructor but Im Deaf and I use ASL everyday. I want to give you a simple example to why ASL makes sense to me while the other "sign language" systems do not.

Take the word "run" for example:

1) The water tap is running.

2) My stocking has a run in it.

3) My brother is running for the president position.

4) The photocopier is running.

5) My nose is running.

6) I am running to the store.

As you can see, the word 'run' has several meanings depending on the context. If you were signing in SEE or any other sign language system that you mentioned, there would be only one sign for "run" in all of the contexts. So if I used one sign for run for example, running as in jogging...it would make sense in the sentence, "I am running to the store" but it would NOT make sense in this sentence, "My nose is running". If I used the same sign for run as in jogging, in this sentence then, it would make it look like my nose is running/jogging. Noses do not go jogging! In ASL, I would use a different sign showing a visual concept that my nose is running (booger coming out of my nose) as opposed to my nose jogging.

So if you used SEE or any other sign language system other than ASL, can you imagine how challenging it would be for little children trying to learn and translate the meaning? I remember being exposed to SEE and it was confusing for me.

Again, in ASL, the word run would have a different sign for each meaning so that it makes sense visually and conceptually.

Let me know if I do not make sense! :lol: :wave:

Makes perfect sense, and in fact, is quite accurate and well explained. That is exactly why using signed English creates a confusing linguistic atmosphere for the brain.
 
Makes perfect sense, and in fact, is quite accurate and well explained. That is exactly why using signed English creates a confusing linguistic atmosphere for the brain.

Which in turn, leads to poor literacy skills.
 
Thank you all for the responses but I am not talking about sign language. As far as I know in the US there is only one sign language and that is ASL. I believe ASL and English to be mutually exculsive languages. Please correct me if I am wrong.

The MCE systems as I understand are suppose to hellp teach English literacy. My question is to why we have so many different MCE's. Furthermore, why are the MCE signs different from the ASL signs? The MCE should use existing ASL signs as the starting point so that a word signed in ASL would be the same as the MCE sign for the same word. Hopefully that clears it up a bit.
 
Thank you all for the responses but I am not talking about sign language. As far as I know in the US there is only one sign language and that is ASL. I believe ASL and English to be mutually exculsive languages. Please correct me if I am wrong.

The MCE systems as I understand are suppose to hellp teach English literacy. My question is to why we have so many different MCE's. Furthermore, why are the MCE signs different from the ASL signs? The MCE should use existing ASL signs as the starting point so that a word signed in ASL would be the same as the MCE sign for the same word. Hopefully that clears it up a bit.

We have so many because they don't work. Hearing folk just keep believing that they can improve the language of signs by making it more closely resemble their spoken language. Just another indication of the audist view. They just keep altering and changing hoping to hit upon something that is actually effective. MCE signs are different because MCEs are not ASL. What you are talking about is PSE. The MCEs were designed to make English visable. Therefore, they include the various features of the English language. PSE evolved for communication purposes. It follows neither the strict grammatical rules of English, nor ASL, but combines them both.

The problem here is that MCEs are attempting to take stimuli meant to be received and processed auditorily (in a linear fashion) and put it into a mode that is intended to process stimuli from a time oriented and spatial perspective.
 
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