Why so many signing systems?

jillio said:
We have so many because they don't work. Hearing folk just keep believing that they can improve the language of signs by making it more closely resemble their spoken language. Just another indication of the audist view. They just keep altering and changing hoping to hit upon something that is actually effective. MCE signs are different because MCEs are not ASL. What you are talking about is PSE. The MCEs were designed to make English visable. Therefore, they include the various features of the English language. PSE evolved for communication purposes. It follows neither the strict grammatical rules of English, nor ASL, but combines them both.

The problem here is that MCEs are attempting to take stimuli meant to be received and processed auditorily (in a linear fashion) and put it into a mode that is intended to process stimuli from a time oriented and spatial perspective.
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Thanks... Without MCE's how would you teach english literacy to a profoundly deaf child?
 
rockdrummer said:
that doesnt answer the question
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it's already been explained many times in many threads. with strong L1 (which means you are cognitively developed & matured)... it helps facilitate learning L2. With poor L1 - how can you learn L2?

Example - Korean grammar is fundamentally different from American grammar but they have no problem learning it as long as they have strong L1. Just because ASL isn't a written nor spoken language doesn't mean it's any more difficult for deafie than a foreigner to learn English.
 
Jiro said:
it's already been explained many times in many threads. with strong L1 (which means you are cognitively developed & matured)... it helps facilitate learning L2. With poor L1 - how can you learn L2?

Example - Korean grammar is fundamentally different from American grammar but they have no problem learning it as long as they have strong L1. Just because ASL isn't a written nor spoken language doesn't mean it's any more difficult for deafie than a foreigner to learn English.
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nevermind
 
rockdrummer said:
Thanks... Without MCE's how would you teach english literacy to a profoundly deaf child?
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The same way ESL is taught. By using the L1 language to teach the L2.

You seem to forget that literacy rates of the deaf were higher before MCEs were even a thought, much less a practice.
 
Jiro said:
it's already been explained many times in many threads. with strong L1 (which means you are cognitively developed & matured)... it helps facilitate learning L2. With poor L1 - how can you learn L2?

Example - Korean grammar is fundamentally different from American grammar but they have no problem learning it as long as they have strong L1. Just because ASL isn't a written nor spoken language doesn't mean it's any more difficult for deafie than a foreigner to learn English.
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Eaxactly Jiro..I have a student who is struggling to learn English and has poor literacy skills for his age because he learned ASL at the age of 6 after the oral only method failed him. Because of such a huge delay, he doesn't have a strong first language. Despite learning ASL, there are gaps in it and in his thinking skills.
 
jillio said:
The same way ESL is taught. By using the L1 language to teach the L2.

You seem to forget that literacy rates of the deaf were higher before MCEs were even a thought, much less a practice.
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I can't forget something I have never known. But thank you for your reponse. I gather what you are all indirectly saying is that you don't believe MCE's are not necessary.
 
When MCE (any version) was invented and then used...many deaf students started to fail reading and writing...and fail to grasp language skills.

Which bears the question...why do I (as a deaf education teacher) not use Signed English to teach spoken and written English? Yes, that's a very good question and a logical one at that.

Because it does not work. You cannot teach a language by using an artifical language.

Using ASL works because the students acquire a full set of language tools to have a strong language base. ASL is a real language. Then from that base, they are able to learn any language - including English.

Look at Sweden. The teachers use the native sign language system of the deaf to teach the spoken/written Swedish language. This is often referred to as the bi-bi program in education. And as a result, nearly every child graduates on grade level or above from their education programs. This speaks volumes.
 
rockdrummer said:
I can't forget something I have never known. But thank you for your reponse. I gather what you are all indirectly saying is that you don't believe MCE's are not necessary.
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LOL, well now that you know it, keep it in mind.:giggle:

No, MCEs are not necessary.
 
deafbajagal said:
When MCE (any version) was invented and then used...many deaf students started to fail reading and writing...and fail to grasp language skills.

Which bears the question...why do I (as a deaf education teacher) not use Signed English to teach spoken and written English? Yes, that's a very good question and a logical one at that.

Because it does not work. You cannot teach a language by using an artifical language.

Using ASL works because the students acquire a full set of language tools to have a strong language base. ASL is a real language. Then from that base, they are able to learn any language - including English.

Look at Sweden. The teachers use the native sign language system of the deaf to teach the spoken/written Swedish language. This is often referred to as the bi-bi program in education. And as a result, nearly every child graduates on grade level or above from their education programs. This speaks volumes.
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Exactly. You can't argue with results. Or with the lack of results, when it comes to the MCEs.
 
My daughter's school adds "English Signs" when they need to. They are learning "are", "is", "to", "and", stuff like that. They use them so they can teach reading English. If there were no MCE systems, what would they do?
 
That is like why is there so many accents' and slang in the English spoken language.

People from All over the USA, speak entirely different.

Certain states speak totally different from other states.

Dunno if I am going off topic or not... but just thought to throw that in.
 
Ask yourself who invented ASL? George Veditz.

Who invented those other & unrecognised languages like SEE, Pidgin and so on? Hearing people who thought they had the best interests at heart only to find out it didn't work.
 
Mrs Bucket said:
Ask yourself who invented ASL? George Veditz.

Who invented those other & unrecognised languages like SEE, Pidgin and so on? Hearing people who thought they had the best interests at heart only to find out it didn't work.
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Just like how the Spoken English language. Slangs, drawls, accents, etc..
 
faire_jour said:
My daughter's school adds "English Signs" when they need to. They are learning "are", "is", "to", "and", stuff like that. They use them so they can teach reading English. If there were no MCE systems, what would they do?
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Fingerspelling comes to mind.
 
Mrs Bucket said:
Ask yourself who invented ASL? George Veditz.

Who invented those other & unrecognised languages like SEE, Pidgin and so on? Hearing people who thought they had the best interests at heart only to find out it didn't work.
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That is it in a nutshell. My favorite Veditz quote is "We are, now and forever, the people of the eye."
 
Good question, rockdrummer. Several signing system was invented by educators, should I say 'hearing' educators. The only reason why other signs were invented because they want to find signs that are very English. Since ASL has it's own syntax, own language that shares no grammatical similarities to English from what I've learned. :)

SimCon represents spoken English word order It's not the same as ASL but some signs were copied off from ASL, only one problem is that some deaf people do not use speech or oral skills as well to sign and speak the same time. And that signing system(SimCon) will not work for some, while it has worked for others.

To be honest, there's no universal sign language for all deaf people, so whatever signing method they wishes to go by is their call. ;)
 
jillio said:
Makes perfect sense, and in fact, is quite accurate and well explained. That is exactly why using signed English creates a confusing linguistic atmosphere for the brain.
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Thank you and I agree, signed English is confusing. I was exposed to it for quite some time between grades 5-7 because my teacher/interpreter at the time, only knew signed English. So I had to put up with their skills.
 
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