which is better?

[Jiro]

I can handle truth, what I object to is maliciousness and hypocrisy.

My child and all of her peers at school are at a far greater risk than FJ's child. They attend an ASL-based school for the Deaf that's out of district. They are driven from hours away every day to attend this school. They take swimming lessons daily at school, in a pool. They cook in a kitchen. In a thread about making a choice between educational environments, if you wanted to be bearer of doom and gloom, wouldn't a more relevant truth be for you to post child mortality rates due to auto accidents? Or drownings? Or allergies? This school requires annual dentist visits, what about posting the side effects of fluoride, of xrays, have you ever read the FDA small print on vaccinations?

I don't see how your child and her peers are at far greater risk than FJ's child. You're blurring the actual message.

In terms of "risk" - we're talking about the ramification that deaf child will face if raising him/her as a hearie so let's cut this silly farce and stay on topic without these hyperboles, si?

so do you agree with this post?

he would be missing out on th ability to hear and understand the spoken language of others.

but if that is not of value to you, more power to you. But know, you ARE making that choice.

 

[faire_jour]

Wirelessly posted

I have never once, for a second advocated against deaf schools.

how convenient.... that's just same as a racist guy saying "hey I have a black neighbor and we don't fight as long as he minds his own business."

The way you are - it's like this.... you do not advocate against deaf schools but you wouldn't help support deaf schools if they're shutting down due to budget cut.

absolutely incorrect. I wrote letters to the utah board of education, signed petitions and wrote utah legislators when it looked like usd was on the chopping block. (and we don't even live there anymore). I have told my familiy's story to the news, fundraised for a new playgroud for the asl program and on and on...all for a school that is not appropriate for my child, but lovingly supports and educates many others.

 

[GrendelQ]

I don't see how your child and her peers are at far greater risk than FJ's child. You're blurring the actual message.

In terms of "risk" - we're talking about the ramification that deaf child will face if raising him/her as a hearie so let's cut this silly farce and stay on topic without these hyperboles, si?

so do you agree with this post?

Really? Reread DC's post -- the one I responded to -- and tell me how you see that it's about raising a Deaf child as a hearie and the risks inherent. It's just a hypocritical attack on an individual's parenting, and not a constructive discussion of parenting a deaf child.

If you don't see the risks I mention, look up child mortality rates and causes.

FJ's kid was brought up in an ASL environment for most of her life. Her parents are fluent ASL users, and her family has been immersed in Deaf culture for years, which is more than many of the participants in this conversation can say. Just because her parents choose to include a spoken language in her environment, as well as signed language, doesn't suddenly mean they are "raising her as a hearie."

 

[faire_jour]

Wirelessly posted

I find it offensive to implant babies and subject them to a whole slew of risks and restrictions and high costs even when there are no long terms studies done on long term effects and risks on implantees. I'm not going to sugarcoat this. It's how I really feel. It's THEIR bodies therefore their right to decide.

You obvious have different opinions, fine. But I'll be damned if I sit here and be all nice and sweet and pretend I dont feel this way because you find opposing views to yours offensive. I find faire_jour offensive and I am not putting up with her manipulative arrogant bullshit. She's implying to frankiesmom she's a bad mother if she doesn't implant and I am thinking waaaaaait a minute, there are a LOT of cons to CIs and many parents would have very good reasons not to implant. No one has the right to guilt trip a parent into thinking otherwise. That's wrong. And now you're making it all about you. It's not. It's about faire_jour and her attitude.

implants, even childhood implantation, has been around for over 20 years. Yes, there are risks, but they are tiny compared to the actual risks in every day life. My daughter's surgeon has certainly never had a fatality (in fact, no one has ever died during a ci surgery). He has never had a single facial nerve complication and is rate of infection is very very low. I checked him out, just like every responsible parent does

the complications for a single vaccination are higher than a ci operation. Do you vaccinate? I know PLENTY of wonderful mothers who would think you disgusting and irresponsible for subjecting your perfectly healthy child to a shot, for a disease that (if they even get it) will most likely less complications than the vaccine!

i don't care if you don't like implants. They have improved my child's life. She has relationships with people she struggled to communicate with for years. She is closer to her extended family than we ever hoped.
i do NOT think every child should be implanted.

 

[DeafCaroline]

Really? Reread DC's post -- the one I responded to -- and tell me how you see that it's about raising a Deaf child as a hearie and the risks inherent. It's just a hypocritical attack on an individual's parenting, and not a constructive discussion of parenting a deaf child.

If you don't see the risks I mention, look up child mortality rates and causes.

FJ's kid was brought up in an ASL environment for most of her life. Her parents are fluent ASL users, and her family has been immersed in Deaf culture for years, which is more than many of the participants in this conversation can say. Just because her parents choose to include a spoken language in her environment, as well as signed language, doesn't suddenly mean they are "raising her as a hearie."

Why are you harping on mortality rates? Is that all you got out of that long list of risks? As long as the risk of death is not high, then it's ok?

Hypocritical attack? I pointed out that when a parent implants a baby, that they are subjecting that baby to a whole slew of risks and restrictions that it never had before all for the sake of attaining hearing. You find that hypocritical of me to point that out. Hmm. How long have you been here on AD? How many stories and accounts have you heard of parents opting not to raise their CI kids with ASL? CIs are very much part of integrating deaf kids into mainstream schools and it's toted as a sure fire way to ensure a deaf kid grow up to be a happy adult. Do you know of any CI company that posts on their website that ASL and deaf culture is important and valid? And how many CI kids are now coming here to say they're interested in joining the deaf community after growing up Orally.

Like i said before, I know you did what you thought was best for your child and I would never attack you for that. ONCE AGAIN, my posts were directed to faire_jour who is pushing hardcore for CI and implying parents who don't implant don't value spoken language for their deaf kids.

I like how you completely sidestepped Jiro's question to get mad at me for putting faire_jour in her place or how you completely avoided the fact that CIs come with cons by saying "well, stoves and cars are a risk!"

 

[sallylou]

I didn't know that you have to change settings on the CI. That's worse than digital HAs. Have CIs not changed in the last decade or so?

 

[Beowulf]

Why are we harping on CI risks? What is offensive to me is the idea that the gift of sound is so darn precious that we ought not let anyone be deaf. Phooey. I love it quiet.

 

[deafskeptic]

my mom did that, back in the late 80's. I said no. It was never discussed again. I thank her for that.

If I'm not mistaken, your deafness is a conductive one anyway? CIs wouldn't have been useful anyway.

 

[DeafCaroline]

Wirelessly posted

i don't care if you don't like implants. They have improved my child's life. She has relationships with people she struggled to communicate with for years. She is closer to her extended family than we ever hoped.
i do NOT think every child should be implanted.

So, she is closer to family because she has greater hearing, not because they love her enough to be close to her when she was deaf? That's very sad. My extended family have been very close and loving to me since the day I was born and my hearing aids made no difference in the volume or quality of love they had for me. In fact, I would even go so far as to say my grandparents and cousins and aunts and uncles actually made far more of an effort to make sure i always felt included than my own immediate family.

I struggle to hear but that didn't stop me from making the effort to communicate and usually do so very successfully whether it's with speech, writing it down on paper or gesturing. In fact I'm far more successful communicating with people who don't speak English than all hearing people I know because of my ability to be so adaptive when it comes to communication. Will your CI child have the same ability to be very adaptive and flexible if her CI breaks down or her battery run dry? Or will she become very upset that she cannot hear what people are saying and have a hard time dealing with that? Let me ask you this - what's the longest your child has gone without hearing after getting implanted and not be upset about it? Can she go a whole week stone deaf and not throw a fit? I once fell into the river with my hearing aid on and had to wait about a week and a half before getting a new set. It didn't affect me at all other than feeling bad for destroying an expensive piece of equipment. I was fine not hearing anything. I could still speak and lipread. Life went on as per usual. No big drama.


You say you do not think every child be implanted yet you make it very clear that those parents who opts not to don't value their child enough.

 

[deafskeptic]

So, she is closer to family because she has greater hearing, not because they love her enough to be close to her when she was deaf? That's very sad. My extended family have been very close and loving to me since the day I was born and my hearing aids made no difference in the volume or quality of love they had for me. In fact, I would even go so far as to say my grandparents and cousins and aunts and uncles actually made far more of an effort to make sure i always felt included than my own immediate family.

I struggle to hear but that didn't stop me from making the effort to communicate and usually do so very successfully whether it's with speech, writing it down on paper or gesturing. In fact I'm far more successful communicating with people who don't speak English than all hearing people I know because of my ability to be so adaptive when it comes to communication. Will your CI child have the same ability to be very adaptive and flexible if her CI breaks down or her battery run dry? Or will she become very upset that she cannot hear what people are saying and have a hard time dealing with that? Let me ask you this - what's the longest your child has gone without hearing after getting implanted and not be upset about it? Can she go a whole week stone deaf and not throw a fit? I once fell into the river with my hearing aid on and had to wait about a week and a half before getting a new set. It didn't affect me at all other than feeling bad for destroying an expensive piece of equipment. I was fine not hearing anything. I could still speak and lipread. Life went on as per usual. No big drama.


You say you do not think every child be implanted yet you make it very clear that those parents who opts not to don't value their child enough.

That's a good point.

 

[jillio]

Oh really? How do you know? I know tons of kids who are functionally hoh with hearing aids who have severe/severe-profound and even PROFOUND losses!!!!!! Every kid is different with how they respond to hearing technology.
God, back in the 80's there were still lots of kids at Clarke/DePaul/CID/St. Joseph's/ other oral programs..........and they were SUCESSFUL?!?!?! Sucessful aqustiion of oral skills did not begin and end with CIs!

How many times have I said that the CI claims are the same claims that have been made in the past about other technologies. The oralists can't come up with anything new, so they keep repeating the same old, same old with each technological advance. And they have yet to prove any of it, no matter how many times they use the same old tired arguments.

 

[jillio]

Wirelessly posted



implants, even childhood implantation, has been around for over 20 years. Yes, there are risks, but they are tiny compared to the actual risks in every day life. My daughter's surgeon has certainly never had a fatality (in fact, no one has ever died during a ci surgery). He has never had a single facial nerve complication and is rate of infection is very very low. I checked him out, just like every responsible parent does

the complications for a single vaccination are higher than a ci operation. Do you vaccinate? I know PLENTY of wonderful mothers who would think you disgusting and irresponsible for subjecting your perfectly healthy child to a shot, for a disease that (if they even get it) will most likely less complications than the vaccine!

i don't care if you don't like implants. They have improved my child's life. She has relationships with people she struggled to communicate with for years. She is closer to her extended family than we ever hoped.
i do NOT think every child should be implanted.

It is for your child to determine if they have improved her life, not you. You are not the one that is deaf. She is. And according to your blog, and all the pain and frustration she experienced after her second implant, she no doubt has a very different perspective than you do.

If she was struggling to communicate with her extended family, then it was the extended family's responsibility to learn to communicate with her, not her responsibility to meet their needs. Looks like you and your family have the responsibility thing reversed because it is more convenient for you to make the child meet the adults' needs rather than the way it is supposed to be: the adults meeting the child's needs.

 

[deafskeptic]

It is for your child to determine if they have improved her life, not you. You are not the one that is deaf. She is. And according to your blog, and all the pain and frustration she experienced after her second implant, she no doubt has a very different perspective than you do.

If she was struggling to communicate with her extended family, then it was the extended family's responsibility to learn to communicate with her, not her responsibility to meet their needs.

I guess Cloggy isn't the only parent who's in denial about CIs and deafness.

 

[jillio]

So, she is closer to family because she has greater hearing, not because they love her enough to be close to her when she was deaf? That's very sad. My extended family have been very close and loving to me since the day I was born and my hearing aids made no difference in the volume or quality of love they had for me. In fact, I would even go so far as to say my grandparents and cousins and aunts and uncles actually made far more of an effort to make sure i always felt included than my own immediate family.

I struggle to hear but that didn't stop me from making the effort to communicate and usually do so very successfully whether it's with speech, writing it down on paper or gesturing. In fact I'm far more successful communicating with people who don't speak English than all hearing people I know because of my ability to be so adaptive when it comes to communication. Will your CI child have the same ability to be very adaptive and flexible if her CI breaks down or her battery run dry? Or will she become very upset that she cannot hear what people are saying and have a hard time dealing with that? Let me ask you this - what's the longest your child has gone without hearing after getting implanted and not be upset about it? Can she go a whole week stone deaf and not throw a fit? I once fell into the river with my hearing aid on and had to wait about a week and a half before getting a new set. It didn't affect me at all other than feeling bad for destroying an expensive piece of equipment. I was fine not hearing anything. I could still speak and lipread. Life went on as per usual. No big drama.


You say you do not think every child be implanted yet you make it very clear that those parents who opts not to don't value their child enough.

Bingo! That is a family that has no idea how to practice unconditional love.

 

[sallylou]

FJ, how convenient for you.

 

[jillio]

faire joure, I think that you keep assuming that ALL Deaf Schools/.programs are like the one in Utah. You don't get it. She wants speech therapy for her son. Her son will grow up the way jillo's son did, or the way a kid attending Kansas School or Oregon School did! It's not an either or choice. Many dhh kids can develop oral abilty even if they use ASL, and go to a school for the deaf!

Right. Frankie will grow up with a full tool box, not one missing needed tools.

 

[GrendelQ]

Why are you harping on mortality rates? Is that all you got out of that long list of risks? As long as the risk of death is not high, then it's ok?

Hypocritical attack? I pointed out that when a parent implants a baby, that they are subjecting that baby to a whole slew of risks and restrictions that it never had before all for the sake of attaining hearing. You find that hypocritical of me to point that out. Hmm. How long have you been here on AD? How many stories and accounts have you heard of parents opting not to raise their CI kids with ASL? CIs are very much part of integrating deaf kids into mainstream schools and it's toted as a sure fire way to ensure a deaf kid grow up to be a happy adult. Do you know of any CI company that posts on their website that ASL and deaf culture is important and valid? And how many CI kids are now coming here to say they're interested in joining the deaf community after growing up Orally.

Like i said before, I know you did what you thought was best for your child and I would never attack you for that. ONCE AGAIN, my posts were directed to faire_jour who is pushing hardcore for CI and implying parents who don't implant don't value spoken language for their deaf kids.

I like how you completely sidestepped Jiro's question to get mad at me for putting faire_jour in her place or how you completely avoided the fact that CIs come with cons by saying "well, stoves and cars are a risk!"

DC, I don't believe I've seen a situation yet on AD in which parents of a deaf child were against ASL. Not one. Even the most "hardcore" of parents I've seen on this forum used ASL with his daughter for a time, and has a wife who is fluent.

And I realize you think that there's a rush of once brainwashed CI kids coming here, but I participate in several other online communities, and I've seen quite a few young adults leave this forum after getting CIs because they just didn't "feel the warmth" -- any "rush" is actually going in the other direction, in the form of a recognition that spoken language is possible without losing one's Deafness. There would be many more families participating in this community, you'd really see a rush, if every discussion about academic options, about language, didn't devolve into CI bashing.

No one is promoting a CI as the right way for this parent -- do you see anyone with a CI, or any parent of a CI pushing them? I only see people correcting errors and misconceptions that are being put forward by people who don't know anything about CIs. Why are you even posting about them? You have no familiarity with them.

I answered Jiro's post. He's just trying to deflect from the discussion I am having with regard to your post.

 

[jillio]

I guess Cloggy isn't the only parent who's in denial about CIs and deafness.

Unfortunately not. I find it incredibly sad when parents do what is convenient for them and then attempt to justify it as being what is best for the child.

 

[DeafCaroline]

DC, I don't believe I've seen a situation yet on AD in which parents of a deaf child were against ASL. Not one. Even the most "hardcore" of parents I've seen on this forum used ASL with his daughter for a time, and has a wife who is fluent.

And I realize you think that there's a rush of once brainwashed CI kids coming here, but I participate in several other online communities, and I've seen quite a few young adults leave this forum after getting CIs becasue they just didn't "feel the warmth" -- any "rush" is actually going in the other direction, in the form of a recognition that spoken language is possible without losing one's Deafness. There would be many more families participating in this community, you'd really see a rush, if every discussion about academic options, about language, didn't devolve into CI bashing.

No one is promoting a CI as the right way for this parent -- do you see anyone with a CI, or any parent of a CI pushing them? I only see people correcting errors and misconceptions that are being put forward by people who don't know anything about CIs. Why are you even posting about them? You have no familiarity with them.

Neither do you. You're not the one implanted. Do you really think I haven't had long lectures and speeches and explanations about cochlear implants from doctors and audiologists? Hello? I'm deaf, remember?

 

[jillio]

Coolgirl,the root cause of faire joure's rants against Deaf Schools have to do with the fact that the speech therapy at her daughter's bi bi program was REALLY bad. She does not understand that there are a plethora of schools out there that have accomodnated themselves to the CI, and offer hoh style services to CI and hoh kids.

To be accurate, it wasn't that the speech therapy was bad, but it was that she could not get them to use AVT for her child. No matter that it is totally opposed to the bi-bi philosophy. Basically, she wanted a bi-bi school to operate from an oral perspective.