which is better?

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Hearing Aids-

They're like cochlear implants, but it doesn't involve surgery. So really think about that.
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Oh no, they are so NOT.

Fuzzy
 
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deafdyke said:
faire_jour said:
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nope, just straight to the point.

with a severe loss it is very unlikely that a child would have access to enough of spoken language with hearing aids to develop the ability to understand spoken language through listening.

if that is not of value, then absolutely do NOT implant. There are plenty of people who don't value that at all. I happen to, but who cares! A person can have a wonderful, successful life without it.

asl and written english can (and do) provide the ability to read and write and communicate. There are tons of Deaf people who are successful every day with those tools.

but again, no action is a choice. Waiting is a decision. That is the truth. And there is nothing wrong with saying that
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Oh really? How do you know? I know tons of kids who are functionally hoh with hearing aids who have severe/severe-profound and even PROFOUND losses!!!!!! Every kid is different with how they respond to hearing technology.
God, back in the 80's there were still lots of kids at Clarke/DePaul/CID/St. Joseph's/ other oral programs..........and they were SUCESSFUL?!?!?! Sucessful aqustiion of oral skills did not begin and end with CIs!
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they understand running spoken language without lipreading? They can hear the difference between cat and cats? Gum and gun? With a profound loss?

interesting, especially since you claim there are sounds of speech that can't be distinguished without lipreading (which, of course, is FALSE.)
 
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deafdyke said:
Coolgirl,the root cause of faire joure's rants against Deaf Schools have to do with the fact that the speech therapy at her daughter's bi bi program was REALLY bad. She does not understand that there are a plethora of schools out there that have accomodnated themselves to the CI, and offer hoh style services to CI and hoh kids.
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you are flat out wrong. The school was absolutely amazing, for a very small segment of the population. They were amazing. They did what they do beautifully. I have never once, for a second advocated against deaf schools.

plus, this discussion is about cis not schools.
 
faire_jour said:
Wirelessly posted
you are flat out wrong. The school was absolutely amazing, for a very small segment of the population. They were amazing. They did what they do beautifully. I have never once, for a second advocated against deaf schools.

plus, this discussion is about cis not schools.
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ok, faire_jour - you had no compunction about dumping on a small child the following risks, published by FDA in 2010 without her full knowledge of all that CIs entail. Of course she couldn't know, she was just a small child. Once she just had poor hearing, now she has all of the following to worry about thanks to you:

What are the Risks of Cochlear Implants?
General Anesthesia Risks

General anesthesia is drug-induced sleep. The drugs, such as anesthetic gases and injected drugs, may affect people differently. For most people, the risk of general anesthesia is very low. However, for some people with certain medical conditions, it is more risky.


Risks from the Surgical Implant Procedure

Injury to the facial nerve --this nerve goes through the middle ear to give movement to the muscles of the face. It lies close to where the surgeon needs to place the implant, and thus it can be injured during the surgery. An injury can cause a temporary or permanent weakening or full paralysis on the same side of the face as the implant.
Meningitis --this is an infection of the lining of the surface of the brain. People who have abnormally formed inner ear structures appear to be at greater risk of this rare, but serious complication. For more information on the risk of meningitis in cochlear recipients, see the nearby Useful Links.
Cerebrospinal fluid leakage --the brain is surrounded by fluid that may leak from a hole created in the inner ear or elsewhere from a hole in the covering of the brain as a result of the surgical procedure.
Perilymph fluid leak --the inner ear or cochlea contains fluid. This fluid can leak through the hole that was created to place the implant.
Infection of the skin wound.
Blood or fluid collection at the site of surgery.
Attacks of dizziness or vertigo.
Tinnitus, which is a ringing or buzzing sound in the ear.
Taste disturbances --the nerve that gives taste sensation to the tongue also goes through the middle ear and might be injured during the surgery.
Numbness around the ear.
Reparative granuloma --this is the result of localized inflammation that can occur if the body rejects the implant.

There may be other unforeseen complications that could occur with long term implantation that we cannot now predict.
Other Risks Associated with the Use of Cochlear Implants
People with a cochlear implant:

May hear sounds differently. Sound impressions from an implant differ from normal hearing, according to people who could hear before they became deaf. At first, users describe the sound as "mechanical", "technical", or "synthetic". This perception changes over time, and most users do not notice this artificial sound quality after a few weeks of cochlear implant use.
May lose residual hearing. The implant may destroy any remaining hearing in the implanted ear.
May have unknown and uncertain effects. The cochlear implant stimulates the nerves directly with electrical currents. Although this stimulation appears to be safe, the long term effect of these electrical currents on the nerves is unknown.
May not hear as well as others who have had successful outcomes with their implants.
May not be able to understand language well. There is no test a person can take before surgery that will predict how well he or she will understand language after surgery.
May have to have it removed temporarily or permanently if an infection develops after the implant surgery. However, this is a rare complication.
May have their implant fail. In this situation, a person with an implant would need to have additional surgery to resolve this problem and would be exposed to the risks of surgery again.
May not be able to upgrade their implant when new external components become available. Implanted parts are usually compatible with improved external parts. That way, as advances in technology develop, one can upgrade his or her implant by changing only its external parts. In some cases, though, this won't work and the implant will need changing.
May not be able to have some medical examinations and treatments. These treatments include:
MRI imaging. MRI is becoming a more routine diagnostic method for early detection of medical problems. Even being close to an MRI imaging unit will be dangerous because it may dislodge the implant or demagnetize its internal magnet. FDA has approved some implants, however, for some types of MRI studies done under controlled conditions.
neurostimulation.
electrical surgery.
electroconvulsive therapy.
ionic radiation therapy.

Will depend on batteries for hearing. For some devices new or recharged batteries are needed every day.
May damage their implant. Contact sports, automobile accidents, slips and falls, or other impacts near the ear can damage the implant. This may mean needing a new implant and more surgery. It is unknown whether a new implant would work as well as the old one.
May find them expensive. Replacing damaged or lost parts may be expensive.
Will have to use it for the rest of life. During a person's lifetime, the manufacturer of the cochlear implant could go out of business. Whether a person will be able to get replacement parts or other customer service in the future is uncertain.
May have lifestyle changes because their implant will interact with the electronic environment.
An implant may set off:
theft detection systems
set off metal detectors or other security systems
be affected by cellular phone users or other radio transmitters
have to be turned off during take offs and landings in aircraft
interact in unpredictable ways with other computer systems

Will have to be careful of static electricity. Static electricity may temporarily or permanently damage a cochlear implant. It may be good practice to remove the processor and headset before contact with static generating materials such as children's plastic play equipment, TV screens, computer monitors, or synthetic fabric. For more details regarding how to deal with static electricity, contact the manufacturer or implant center.
Have less ability to hear both soft sounds and loud sounds without changing the sensitivity of the implant. The sensitivity of normal hearing is adjusted continuously by the brain, but the design of cochlear implants requires that a person manually change sensitivity setting of the device as the sound environment changes.
May develop irritation where the external part rubs on the skin and have to remove it for a while.
Can't let the external parts get wet. Damage from water may be expensive to repair and the person may be without hearing until the implant is repaired. Thus, the person will need to remove the external parts of the device when bathing, showering, swimming, or participating in water sports.
May hear strange sounds caused by its interaction with magnetic fields, like those near airport passenger screening machines.
 
@DeafCaroline
That's a very offensive post you just made. I'd be willing to bet that you placed your child in far greater danger every day he has lived with you than FJ did by choosing CI surgery for her child. In fact, to paraphrase your accusation: 'now your child has all of the following to worry about thanks to you':

Have you ever placed your child in a car? If so, you must be comfortable exposing a child to the leading cause of death (aside from disease and natural causes). Putting it in the same terms you posed to FJ, Hey, your child was able to get to the local Kroger or Target, was that trip worth the risk of death?

Do you have a bath in your home, or worse, a pool in your yard? Live near a body of water? Drowning is #2.

Do you have a stove/oven? Cook in your home? Have any old electronics in use? How are the wires in your home? Any smokers nearby? Fire / Burning is another leading cause of death. Do you expose your child to those risk factors?

Cleaning fluids? Lawn/car care chemicals? Poisoning is up there.

Do you think bedding is a nice to have? Consider strangulation/suffocation.

CI surgery isn't a cause of death. Terrible accidents can happen at any point in our lives, including during CI surgery or during a trip to the local supermarket.
 
One thing I think is very important to remember is if your child can use hearing aids and benefit from them by learning speech and understanding speech even if he has to look at you to know you are talking to him it is a benefit of hearing. Cochlear implants, once you get them you have absolutely NO hearing left. It is the cochlear that hears for you. So the decision basically comes to are you willing to give up the hearing that he has to get a cochlear? They are a lot of work and rehab. If your child learns speech before cochlear with a hearing aid it is my understanding that he will do that much better with a cochlear in the future. But then again I am no expert. Wish you well with your journey!
 
GrendelQ said:
@DeafCaroline
That's a very offensive post you just made. I'd be willing to bet that you placed your child in far greater danger every day he has lived with you than FJ did by choosing CI surgery for her child. In fact, to paraphrase your accusation: 'now your child has all of the following to worry about thanks to you':

Have you ever placed your child in a car? If so, you must be comfortable exposing a child to the leading cause of death (aside from disease and natural causes). Putting it in the same terms you posed to FJ, Hey, your child was able to get to the local Kroger or Target, was that trip worth the risk of death?

Do you have a bath in your home, or worse, a pool in your yard? Live near a body of water? Drowning is #2.

Do you have a stove/oven? Cook in your home? Have any old electronics in use? How are the wires in your home? Any smokers nearby? Fire / Burning is another leading cause of death. Do you expose your child to those risk factors?

Cleaning fluids? Lawn/car care chemicals? Poisoning is up there.

Do you think bedding is a nice to have? Consider strangulation/suffocation.

CI surgery isn't a cause of death. Terrible accidents can happen at any point in our lives, including during CI surgery or during a trip to the local supermarket.
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The one thing I want to say about your post is that, yes, Caroline has those things to worry about with her child.

But, as a parent, so do you. CI or not. And, in addition to.
 
AlleyCat said:
The one thing I want to say about your post is that, yes, Caroline has those things to worry about with her child.

But, so do you. CI or not. And, in addition to.
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But that's just it. DC wrote a post accusing FJ of exposing her child to unnecessary risk. That's cruel and unnecessary when the risk of CIs are infinitesimal compared with the risks every parent exposes his or her child to daily. Peanut butter is more dangerous than CIs. Letting a child ride a bike: far, far more dangerous.

I wouldn't write a post condemning a parent for exposing his or her child to risk because they let their child ride a bike, ride in a car, enter school. That's absurd and nasty. I'd advise caution to parents: have your children wear seat belts if you ride in a car, wear helmets if you bike, get vaccinated for meningitis if your child is deaf, whether or not you choose CIs (deaf/HOH kids have a significantly higher incidence of meningitis than hearing kids, without CIs), and so on. You can't keep your child wrapped in cotton at home -- even that is probably dangerous :).
 
the MO continues.........................

same old, same old.

Now, Grendel, are you defending Faire Jour?
 
GrendelQ said:
@DeafCaroline
That's a very offensive post you just made. I'd be willing to bet that you placed your child in far greater danger every day he has lived with you than FJ did by choosing CI surgery for her child. In fact, to paraphrase your accusation: 'now your child has all of the following to worry about thanks to you':

Have you ever placed your child in a car? If so, you must be comfortable exposing a child to the leading cause of death (aside from disease and natural causes). Putting it in the same terms you posed to FJ, Hey, your child was able to get to the local Kroger or Target, was that trip worth the risk of death?

Do you have a bath in your home, or worse, a pool in your yard? Live near a body of water? Drowning is #2.

Do you have a stove/oven? Cook in your home? Have any old electronics in use? How are the wires in your home? Any smokers nearby? Fire / Burning is another leading cause of death. Do you expose your child to those risk factors?

Cleaning fluids? Lawn/car care chemicals? Poisoning is up there.

Do you think bedding is a nice to have? Consider strangulation/suffocation.

CI surgery isn't a cause of death. Terrible accidents can happen at any point in our lives, including during CI surgery or during a trip to the local supermarket.
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I'm offensive for posting the cons of CIs as stated by the FDA? I'm making a point to faire_jour that if we're going to be frank, then let's be really frank.
 
GrendelQ said:
But that's just it. DC wrote a post accusing FJ of exposing her child to unnecessary risk. That's cruel and unnecessary when the risk of CIs are infinitesimal compared with the risks every parent exposes his or her child to daily. Peanut butter is more dangerous than CIs. Letting a child ride a bike: far, far more dangerous.

I wouldn't write a post condemning a parent for exposing his or her child to risk because they let their child ride a bike, ride in a car, enter school. That's absurd and nasty. I'd advise caution to parents: have your children wear seat belts if you ride in a car, wear helmets if you bike, get vaccinated for meningitis if your child is deaf, whether or not you choose CIs (deaf/HOH kids have a significantly higher incidence of meningitis than hearing kids, without CIs), and so on. You can't keep your child wrapped in cotton at home -- even that is probably dangerous :).
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Letting a deaf child think he/she is hearing is the most dangerous action of all and the damage is the most extensive. (I am not referring to you.)
 
GrendelQ said:
But that's just it. DC wrote a post accusing FJ of exposing her child to unnecessary risk. That's cruel and unnecessary when the risk of CIs are infinitesimal compared with the risks every parent exposes his or her child to daily. Peanut butter is more dangerous than CIs. Letting a child ride a bike: far, far more dangerous.

I wouldn't write a post condemning a parent for exposing his or her child to risk because they let their child ride a bike, ride in a car, enter school. That's absurd and nasty. I'd advise caution to parents: have your children wear seat belts if you ride in a car, wear helmets if you bike, get vaccinated for meningitis if your child is deaf, whether or not you choose CIs (deaf/HOH kids have a significantly higher incidence of meningitis than hearing kids, without CIs), and so on. You can't keep your child wrapped in cotton at home -- even that is probably dangerous :).
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GrendelQ - so what should I do? pretend those risks don't exist? They do and every single parent thinking about implanting their baby needs to know them and evaluate whether it's worth making someone, a baby, endure all those possible risks that FAR outweigh the pros of CIs. I, being a deaf person, would not do that to my baby. EVER. If others want to, fine, I wish them the best of luck but I am not going to pretend there are no risks to CIs and if you can't handle the plain truth, that's not my problem.
 
DeafCaroline said:
I'm offensive for posting the cons of CIs as stated by the FDA? I'm making a point to faire_jour that if we're going to be frank, then let's be really frank.
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No, we have all read the warnings, know the risks. What's offensive are your comments. "ok, faire_jour - you had no compunction about dumping on a small child the following risks, published by FDA in 2010 without her full knowledge of all that CIs entail. Of course she couldn't know, she was just a small child. Once she just had poor hearing, now she has all of the following to worry about thanks to you:"

I've had people who are against sending a child out of district object to my daughter's long trip to her school for the Deaf, accusing me of bad parenting for subjecting her to 3-4 hours in a van every day. She's been in two small accidents in the past 2 years on her way to and from school. Very scary. I'm putting her at more risk every day just by doing that than by getting a CI. But we take precautions. She wears a seatbelt. I know the safety record of her driver. I know the route they take. I don't like the risk. Is learning ASL worth her life? No. But that's not a fair equation. Neither is the one that you are making.
 
GrendelQ said:
No, we have all read the warnings, know the risks. What's offensive are your comments. "ok, faire_jour - you had no compunction about dumping on a small child the following risks, published by FDA in 2010 without her full knowledge of all that CIs entail. Of course she couldn't know, she was just a small child. Once she just had poor hearing, now she has all of the following to worry about thanks to you:"

I've had people who are against sending a child out of district object to my daughter's long trip to her school for the Deaf, accusing me of bad parenting for subjecting her to 3-4 hours in a van every day. She's been in two small accidents in the past 2 years on her way to and from school. Very scary. I'm putting her at more risk every day just by doing that than by getting a CI. But we take precautions. She wears a seatbelt. I know the safety record of her driver. I know the route they take. I don't like the risk. Is learning ASL worth her life? No. But that's not a fair equation. Neither is the one that you are making.
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GrendelQ - my post is directed at faire_jour, not you. I told you at the very beginning that I'm anti-implantation of babies and toddlers and also told you that you and I will probably clash over this. As predicted it's happened. You're getting very sensitive about facts that I've posted, it's rather intimidating, isn't it? that long long long list of risks and it's not a pretty thing to acknowledge but they're the facts. I'd rather a baby grow up perfectly healthy and not subjected to a whole slew of risks and limitations imposed upon them without their full knowledge and understanding and then as they become adults, fob off all the costs of CI maintenance upon them and say "it's your problem now even though I did this to you."

I have my opinion and that's what it is. you find it offensive? I don't care.
 
DeafCaroline said:
GrendelQ - so what should I do? pretend those risks don't exist? They do and every single parent thinking about implanting their baby needs to know them and evaluate whether it's worth making someone, a baby, endure all those possible risks that FAR outweigh the pros of CIs. I, being a deaf person, would not do that to my baby. EVER. If others want to, fine, I wish them the best of luck but I am not going to pretend there are no risks to CIs and if you can't handle the plain truth, that's not my problem.
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I can handle truth, what I object to is maliciousness and hypocrisy.

My child and all of her peers at school are at a far greater risk than FJ's child. They attend an ASL-based school for the Deaf that's out of district. They are driven from hours away every day to attend this school. They take swimming lessons daily at school, in a pool. They cook in a kitchen. In a thread about making a choice between educational environments, if you wanted to be bearer of doom and gloom, wouldn't a more relevant truth be for you to post child mortality rates due to auto accidents? Or drownings? Or allergies? This school requires annual dentist visits, what about posting the side effects of fluoride, of xrays, have you ever read the FDA small print on vaccinations?
 
faire_jour said:
I have never once, for a second advocated against deaf schools.
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how convenient.... that's just same as a racist guy saying "hey I have a black neighbor and we don't fight as long as he minds his own business."

The way you are - it's like this.... you do not advocate against deaf schools but you wouldn't help support deaf schools if they're shutting down due to budget cut.
 
I find it offensive to implant babies and subject them to a whole slew of risks and restrictions and high costs even when there are no long terms studies done on long term effects and risks on implantees. I'm not going to sugarcoat this. It's how I really feel. It's THEIR bodies therefore their right to decide.

You obvious have different opinions, fine. But I'll be damned if I sit here and be all nice and sweet and pretend I dont feel this way because you find opposing views to yours offensive. I find faire_jour offensive and I am not putting up with her manipulative arrogant bullshit. She's implying to frankiesmom she's a bad mother if she doesn't implant and I am thinking waaaaaait a minute, there are a LOT of cons to CIs and many parents would have very good reasons not to implant. No one has the right to guilt trip a parent into thinking otherwise. That's wrong. And now you're making it all about you. It's not. It's about faire_jour and her attitude.
 
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