Survey of Bi-Bi programs - Empirical Article

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rockdrummer said:
I agree with that. The question is about which language the child is exposed to. If an american child was born to a spanish speaking family would the child do better if the family learned english or would it be better for the child to learn the native language of the parents? Naturally in the case of deaf children there would need be sign in order for the child to have access to the language.
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Your question is irrelevent as the Spanish speaking child is still hearing, and therefore, would have full access to English and Spanish. However, research has shown that bilingualism for the hearing child is a definate advantage int he development of cognitive skills.
 
jillio said:
Your question is irrelevent as the Spanish speaking child is still hearing, and therefore, would have full access to English and Spanish. However, research has shown that bilingualism for the hearing child is a definate advantage int he development of cognitive skills.
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Too many people just dont understand that at all. They keep comparing apples to oranges. If only they can really work with deaf children in the classroom day in and out instead of relying solely on these research. It is better to gather opinion from both research and personal experience.
 
shel90 said:
Too many people just dont understand that at all. They keep comparing apples to oranges. If only they can really work with deaf children in the classroom day in and out instead of relying solely on these research. It is better to gather opinion from both research and personal experience.
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**nodding**
 
rockdrummer said:
The question is about which language the child is exposed to. If an american child was born to a spanish speaking family would the child do better if the family learned english or would it be better for the child to learn the native language of the parents? Naturally in the case of deaf children there would need be sign in order for the child to have access to the language.
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rockdrummer -

IME&O, adult ESL learners (in your example the parents), can/do struggle with hearing and acquiring all the sounds of a second language. Thanks to the efficiencies of the brain, you don't process well or for some individuals at all, that which is not familiar. Try this yourself, by listening/watching a foreign language film. It is likely to make little sense to you, even if you think you are lip reading because you do not know the foreign language.

The speed at which an adult learns a new language, spoken or signed, more often than not will lag behind that of a child.

They are most comfortable in their first language and are also excellent language models of that language for their child. Comparative to deaf children of deaf families who use ASL.
 
loml said:
rockdrummer -

IME&O, adult ESL learners (in your example the parents), can/do struggle with hearing and acquiring all the sounds of a second language. Thanks to the efficiencies of the brain, you don't process well or for some individuals at all, that which is not familiar. Try this yourself, by listening/watching a foreign language film. It is likely to make little sense to you, even if you think you are lip reading because you do not know the foreign language.

The speed at which an adult learns a new language, spoken or signed, more often than not will lag behind that of a child.

They are most comfortable in their first language and are also excellent language models of that language for their child. Comparative to deaf children of deaf families who use ASL.
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While some of your statements are borderline correct, the conclusions you have drawn from them are not. You fail to include important variables that affect the speed at which the language is learned by the adults, as well as important variables concerning the child.
 
jillio said:
Your question is irrelevent as the Spanish speaking child is still hearing, and therefore, would have full access to English and Spanish. However, research has shown that bilingualism for the hearing child is a definate advantage int he development of cognitive skills.
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shel90 said:
Too many people just dont understand that at all. They keep comparing apples to oranges. If only they can really work with deaf children in the classroom day in and out instead of relying solely on these research. It is better to gather opinion from both research and personal experience.
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Maybe you guys missed my point about signing for accessability to the language.
 
rockdrummer said:
Shel, Do you honestly believe that there is a silver bullet that will work for all kids. My impression is that there isn't which is also why I believe there are so many different approaches. Exactly because one size does not fit all. This is re-enforced by the success stories that we hear from varying approaches.
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I will always hope that all deaf children have equal access to language, communciation, education, and information. If that is a a dream out of my reach, that by all means I will just keep on teaching and work harder with those who were failed by being in linguistically-restrictive environments. I wont look at the sucess stories and say it is ok to put each deaf kid through different approaches until one is found to fit them because that is years lost on language development. There are so many deaf children out there that do not have the same access to education and language as their hearing counterparts do and end up suffering for it. I refuse to forget about them. That's probably the difference between me and most of you...it seems that many of you look at the success stories to justify your beliefs or positions while I look at those who were language deprived to justify my beliefs.

ASL is fully accessible to all deaf and hearing kids because it is a visual language unless the children have severe problems with vision.
 
shel90 said:
I will always hope that all deaf children have equal access to language, communciation, education, and information. If that is a a dream out of my reach, that by all means I will just keep on teaching and work harder with those who were failed by being in linguistically-restrictive environments. I wont look at the sucess stories and say it is ok to put each deaf kid through different approaches until one is found to fit them because that is years lost on language development. There are so many deaf children out there that do not have the same access to education and language as their hearing counterparts do and end up suffering for it. I refuse to forget about them. That's probably the difference between me and most of you...it seems that many of you look at the success stories to justify your beliefs or positions while I look at those who were language deprived to justify my beliefs.

ASL is fully accessible to all deaf and hearing kids because it is a visual language unless the children have severe problems with vision.
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My guess is that the reason different approaches are attempted is because language development is not occurring. So are you suggesting to stay with a given approach even of development is not happening? How can you ignore success stories? To me its deprivation to not find an approach that helps the child develop and grow. If bibi is not yielding results then why would you deprive the child of access to other methods which may prove successful? Who has the right to deprive a child of success no matter which method yields it. Would you remove children from programs that are working even if they are not BIBI programs? Nobody has the right to deny a deaf child access to the various methods because one of them may be exactly what proves successful. I don't think there is a conspiracy against deaf education or the bibi approach. Again I believe the reason there are so many methods is exactly because one size doesn't fit all. While BIBI might be successful for some, it won't be for all. And to leave a child in a program that is not working is just wrong.
 
rockdrummer said:
My guess is that the reason different approaches are attempted is because language development is not occurring. So are you suggesting to stay with a given approach even of development is not happening? How can you ignore success stories? To me its deprivation to not find an approach that helps the child develop and grow. If bibi is not yielding results then why would you deprive the child of access to other methods which may prove successful? Who has the right to deprive a child of success no matter which method yields it. Would you remove children from programs that are working even if they are not BIBI programs? Nobody has the right to deny a deaf child access to the various methods because one of them may be exactly what proves successful. I don't think there is a conspiracy against deaf education or the bibi approach. Again I believe the reason there are so many methods is exactly because one size doesn't fit all. While BIBI might be successful for some, it won't be for all. And to leave a child in a program that is not working is just wrong.
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I have never heard of a child being language deprived in a BiBi environment. :dunno: The reason for this is cuz both languages ..ASL and English are used and they are both fully accessible to the child. It would be like saying a spoken educational environment is failing hearing kids in which they are not picking up on spoken language. In those cases, that would be a sign of cognitive processing difficulties. That's why in my program, we have resources for deaf children with congnitive processing disorders to meet their needs. So, I dont know how deaf children (or even hearing children) are at risk for language delays in a BiBi approach. That's why the BiBi approach is usually the last resort for many parents and when those kids get referred to it, they usually progress. I havent seen a kid who did not make any progress simply because of the program itself.

If there are such cases where a deaf child is language deprived in a BiBi environment, I would like to know and I would find out what is happening and how to remedy it.

I am speaking of children being put in environments where the information, communciation, language, and socialization arent as accessible to them as they are to their hearing counterparts. That is what I am talking about.

I dont think anyone here really understands what I am trying to say. I would never ever be a party to forcing children to be in an educational program that is failing them. If I see a child who is not making progress, I find different teaching methods in my classroom that will fit the child.

The BiBi program uses both ASL and English but in each class, each teacher modifies their teaching style to fit the chidlren's learning needs. We all know that it is unrealistic to use one teaching style on all children.


U know what? I stand by my beliefs based on what I have seen over the years and in different programs.
 
Best wishes everyone and good luck with your children or teaching.
 
shel90 said:
I have never heard of a child being language deprived in a BiBi environment. :dunno:
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I didn't say language deprived. My point was about kids that are not developing language in a given program.
 
rockdrummer said:
I didn't say language deprived. My point was about kids that are not developing language in a given program.
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not able to develop language are due to either two reasons....language-deprived environment or cognitive processing disorders.

Those deaf kids that are language delayed do not have cognitive processing disorders ..it was due to being in a language-deprived environment.

We are basically talking about the same thing. :dunno:
 
Language Development in Profoundly Deaf Children with Cochlear Implants Although cochlear implants improve the ability of profoundly deaf children to understand speech, critics claim that the published literature does not document even a single case of a child who has developed a linguistic system based on input from an implant. Thus, it is of clinical and scientific importance to determine whether cochlear implants facilitate the development of English language skills. The English language skills of prelingually deaf children with cochlear implants were measured before and after implantation. We found that the rate of language development after implantation exceeded that expected from unimplanted deaf children (p < .001) and was similar to that of children with normal hearing. Despite a large amount of individual variability, the best performers in the implanted group seem to be developing an oral linguistic system based largely on auditory input obtained from a cochlear implant.
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Source: Wiley InterScience :: Session Cookies
 
I found this interesting article from teacher magazine about bi bi classroom. Teacher Magazine: Innovations: A Show of Hands

Also RD the posting on language development is interesting. To me it just makes sense that the language development rate would increase, but I would say only if therapy and strategies were used.
 
In my opinion even in a classroom where students are communicating on the same level (bibi classroom, or oral classroom) it still leaves the fact that not all students are functioning on the same academic level. All classrooms must have accommodations to differentiate the instruction. If all students aquired the skills at the same time using the same strategies for teaching it, then teaching and data would be a "easy." Then you have to fact in behavior and classroom management. And don't forget developmental delays and learning disabilities. The language barrier is just one of the barriers in a classroom. I can see the decrease in a classroom when all students can proficiently communicate the same.
 
vallee said:
I found this interesting article from teacher magazine about bi bi classroom. Teacher Magazine: Innovations: A Show of Hands

Also RD the posting on language development is interesting. To me it just makes sense that the language development rate would increase, but I would say only if therapy and strategies were used.
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Thanks Vallee, That charter school has shown some impressive results. Hopefully the funding issues regarding transportation will be resolved and perhaps the school can be used as a model for others.
 
rockdrummer said:
Thanks Vallee, That charter school has shown some impressive results. Hopefully the funding issues regarding transportation will be resolved and perhaps the school can be used as a model for others.
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I would hope so. I am still trying to figure out which type of classroom I prefer - bibi or tc.

I wonder (me thinking????) which prepares the child to be an independent academic reader and successful. Graduation rates or college rates is not a true indicator of success. Success is a job in your field and not underemployed or unemployed.

Growing up I would use the mom I'm deaf excuse. My mom said she didn't care, I had a responsibility to go to college and get a job in the field I wanted. Are all deaf children giving that option???
 
vallee said:
In my opinion even in a classroom where students are communicating on the same level (bibi classroom, or oral classroom) it still leaves the fact that not all students are functioning on the same academic level. All classrooms must have accommodations to differentiate the instruction. If all students aquired the skills at the same time using the same strategies for teaching it, then teaching and data would be a "easy." Then you have to fact in behavior and classroom management. And don't forget developmental delays and learning disabilities. The language barrier is just one of the barriers in a classroom. I can see the decrease in a classroom when all students can proficiently communicate the same.
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I very much know and understand that. I implement different teaching strategies in my classroom to meet the diverse needs of children.

When I talk about putting deaf children at risk for language delays, Iam talking about a whole different ballgame. I think many of u misunderstand where Jillo and I r coming from. We aren't discussing teaching strategies. We r talking about deaf children having full access to language, information, communication, and social situations in the educational setting not about teaching strategies in the clasroom.

I think that's where the misunderstanding continue to occur. Oh well..life goes on. Iam just glad that many Deaf ed teachers IRL know and understand this issue.

Like I am not an expert in teaching blind kids and I wouldn't come on a forum making statements on how it should work for blind kids. I would take a teacher of the blind's experiences and feedback to learn about it instead of arguing with them about something I have no experience with.

Now, this is not to offend anyone but it is true...how does anyone really know and understand about a speciality field if they have never been trained or worked in it.

Like, u Vallee..u have more knowledge than I do about the issues and teaching strategies of hearing children with special needs. I know only by theory so I have no base to justify my opinions on in that field of education. I would tell people to ask you for your suggestions or feedback for this field of teaching, not me since I have no experience with it and I wouldn't want to give misleading information to anyone.

It is just a fact nothing personal. Iam going to the Redskins game to root for the Az Cardinals so have a good day! Catch ya later and I hope we all can clear up the misunderstandings. :)
 
shel thank you for putting your heart out in this posting. There are a lot of miss understandings with posting. I do respect your experience with deaf education. I want to learn more, as more and more deaf children are being mainstreamed. And thank you for respecting my knowledge of at risk children.

There seems some confusing on what type of classroom environment is best for all deaf children. I believe there is not a "best" type of classroom. I do believe that individual children struggle or strive in different classrooms. I'm not for the one size fits all, it doesn't. I don't believe in one strategy to teach a child. I can tell from your posting you use many different strategies to teach a child. My concern was I was told in a posting that you don't use modifications in your classroom because is bibi. I am just trying to envision your classroom layout, environment, and of course academic schedule. I don't want you to take it wrong, I want to learn. Strategies you use can be adapted to other classrooms. My experience with deaf education is just based on me, my education. I am working on going back for another masters in deaf education. The nearest school is 4 hours away. Moving is not an option. So I am looking into a private school, Vanderbilt, in Nashville.

So enjoy the game, I am watching Tennessee Titans play Houston. Nashville has 60% of gas stations out of gas, so home for me.
 
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