So...what you think about the health care bill?

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shel90 said:
Good for you..

I think health care should be paid by the taxpayers so everyone gets it. Then stuff like TVs, cars and etc are based on how hard one works.
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We don't have the money! If the govt cannot even manage Medicare with it's $60 billion dollars a year in fraud and waste, imagine how this boondoggle of a bill will cause. Massachussetts is doing this on the state level and they are failing miserably.
 
darkdog said:
I hate to ruin a good stereotype, but that's really not the way conservatives think. They think that charity is the responsibility of individuals, not government, because frankly, government is pretty bad at it. Conservatives, as a whole, are quite generous with their own money.

Entitlement programs already in place are driving us bankrupt and nobody can reform it because that would be political suicide. Too many other programs suffer from unintended consequences that end up hurting the intended beneficiaries or cause other problems. When the government takes it upon itself to dole out benefits to groups, political considerations and fashionable causes tend to take precedence over actual needs (like AIDS research, which gets far more federal funding per sick person than other diseases that affect far more people, like cancer). It also leads to divisive squabbles as groups fight for an optimal place at the government teat.

There's nothing easier for a politician to do than shower benefits upon one group that will be paid for by another group and take the credit along with the votes. Many of those same politicians tend to be the most miserly with their own money (prime examples being Barack Obama, Joe Biden, and Al Gore).
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And to boot, the great U.S. citizens of the United States give more money to worthy causes (inside the U.S. and outside) than any other country in the world. Philanthropy is the results of capitalism. Not socialism, communism, Marxism, Facism and what not.

"...govt teat..." LOL. How apropo...
 
shel90 said:
It is not as simple as that. People dont usually choose to get laid off and then fall behind with their bills. Your daughter has someone willing to pay her but when her cash flows stop, will she still have that choice?
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That was my point. I did what was told to do. I still have money saved. Did not want to give the impression I was panhandling for mortgage money. My whole point is; someday, regardless of your savings, planning, insurance, etc, people may find themselves in the same situation. So what to do? Should I refuse any aid money and stop shaving, to look the part of a jobless loser? It is about having and not having. About "I got mine" versus "I am having a tough go right now" that is what I mean. No worries. When I read about how they lost a family member to accident or disease, I will just shrug and say "tough it out" rather than offer a kind word. None given, none received.
 
Lol, I prefer "government trough".
 
darkdog said:
I hate to ruin a good stereotype, but that's really not the way conservatives think. They think that charity is the responsibility of individuals, not government, because frankly, government is pretty bad at it. Conservatives, as a whole, are quite generous with their own money.
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I forgot. You donate to the church, ProLife movement, and the NRA. None for those Liberals and the down on their luck folks. And sometimes, they might tip 20% if the service is excellent.
 
One thing to note... most conservatives have their churches and families to fall back on. Many people turned to liberalism because they either don't have the same access to those "mutual funds" or their families and church are unable to support them. Other people turn to liberalism because they see their friends don't have the same support network in place.

Just something to think about...

It's the reason why I don't ask for tax exemptions, because even though I don't use public healthcare, I do recognize a lot of people DO need it. Only thing I ask for is exemptions from mandatory requirements.
 
kokonut said:
We don't have the money! If the govt cannot even manage Medicare with it's $60 billion dollars a year in fraud and waste, imagine how this boondoggle of a bill will cause. Massachussetts is doing this on the state level and they are failing miserably.
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As I like to say, experience trumps logic. I have a strong logical side and certain aspects of government-controlled health care do appeal to my logical side, but if it has a horrible track record in practice, I have to go with that. That's because our logic can't always account for the gazillion factors that affect outcomes, but experience does. No matter how lofty something sounds, if it doesn't work in reality, I have no moral obligation to support it. On the contrary, if I did support something I knew wouldn't work just to count myself among the "special wonderful people", that in itself would be immoral.
 
We have the money. We just need to allocate money differently. Less military weapons and more funding for things like health care and education. We spend money on prisons instead of schools and we have the highest incarceration rate in the world.

The people that I know on Medicare are very happy with it. No long lines. They get specialists' bills covered. Wish that I had it.
 
kokonut said:
We don't have the money! If the govt cannot even manage Medicare with it's $60 billion dollars a year in fraud and waste, imagine how this boondoggle of a bill will cause. Massachussetts is doing this on the state level and they are failing miserably.
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Then how do we have money to support the war?
 
sallylou said:
We have the money. We just need to allocate money differently. Less military weapons and more funding for things like health care and education. We spend money on prisons instead of schools and we have the highest incarceration rate in the world.

The people that I know on Medicare are very happy with it. No long lines. They get specialists' bills covered. Wish that I had it.
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No. Look again. We simply do not have the money just by simply shifting resources around. Last year the U.S. govt collected barely $2 trillion dollars in taxes (tax receipts). We're already $1.4 trillion dollars OVER the allocated budget of a little more than $3 trillion dollars for 2009. Socialized programs and education take up the bulk of the budget...not military defense.
 
kokonut said:
And to boot, the great U.S. citizens of the United States give more money to worthy causes (inside the U.S. and outside) than any other country in the world. Philanthropy is the results of capitalism. Not socialism, communism, Marxism, Facism and what not.
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Very true. The last time I looked at the data, we lead the world in philanthropy. I think (and I'm going off memory) we nearly doubled the second nation on the list. This isn't to say we should pat ourselves on the back and be done with it. We should recognize that it's a positive part of our culture and strive to do even more.

kokonut said:
"...govt teat..." LOL. How apropo...
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Thanks. Wish I could take credit for coining that phrase, but alas, I cannot.

saywhatkid said:
I forgot. You donate to the church, ProLife movement, and the NRA. None for those Liberals and the down on their luck folks. And sometimes, they might tip 20% if the service is excellent.
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Not true. Political causes aren't considered charity (although some groups that are more about advocacy for a cause rather than directly giving money to that cause present a gray area). Churches are a part of it, but not all of it. They do in fact give their time and money to causes that directly help people of all stripes, liberal or not.
 
souggy said:
Go back to university or college, take a History course or Political Science. They will define the differences between the ideologies. It's not as clear and cut as the dictionary makes it.
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I've already been to college. I simply put it in the simplest terms I thought you would be able to comprehend. What exactly is your degree in?
 
saywhatkid said:
Here is the Conservative stance, in my opinion. Most of them feel they have earned what they have, and don't want to share it with those that have less. Funny thing, those are the same people that tend to support gun ownership and religion. They got their pile, they want to be able to defend it, and they want to tell you who to worship. If you are different, you are a stupid and uninformed loser. Circumstances be damned! If you have financial problems, no matter the cause; too bad for you. They went to college, paid their dues, and feel entitled to keep the results.

All I can say; someday, they may be in the other side's shoes. Karma is a bitch, yes?
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Are you a conservative? If not, who made you the conservative spokesman?

FYI, yes, I earned what I have. No, I don't mind sharing it with people who have less. No, I don't want the government to tell me how to "share" it.

I "give" more than 1/3 of my gross income to Federal taxes.

I give about 15% of my gross income to what the IRS calls "charity." That doesn't include what I give in other material items, cash, time, and services that aren't tax deductible. I prefer to make that choice rather than have it taken from me.

I support 2nd Amendment rights, and freedom of religion. Those are Constitutional rights. Those rights are for liberals and conservatives.

I don't even know what you mean having a "pile" that I would want to "defend."

No, I don't want to tell you (or anyone) who to worship. As a Christian, I want to share the joy and peace that a relationship with Jesus Christ provides but I can't force anyone to worship because worship that's forced is meaningless.

"Different" doesn't mean uniformed or stupid.

Yes, I did go to college and paid my dues. What's wrong with that?

Are you saying that only conservative people want to keep what they've earned, to spend it the way they want? Does that mean liberal people want the government to take all their money?

Guess what? There are poor, unemployed conservative people, and there are rich, employed liberal people.

Conservative people live without health insurance, get laid off from jobs, have pre-existing conditions, and die from cancer just like every one else. It has nothing to do with "karma."
 
The costs of the wars are not included in the federal budget because Congress appropriates the money. You can't look at the allocated federal budget and get the total amount of military spending. The point is that we can't afford war.
 
History has it that giving govt greater and greater control over people's freedom and liberty isn't the answer. Nor has it ever worked to people's satisfaction.
 
History is a bit more complicated than that. Historians specialize in very limited and specific areas and write about complicated issues.
 
Reba said:
Are you a conservative? If not, who made you the conservative spokesman?

FYI, yes, I earned what I have. No, I don't mind sharing it with people who have less. No, I don't want the government to tell me how to "share" it.

I "give" more than 1/3 of my gross income to Federal taxes.

I give about 15% of my gross income to what the IRS calls "charity." That doesn't include what I give in other material items, cash, time, and services that aren't tax deductible. I prefer to make that choice rather than have it taken from me.

I support 2nd Amendment rights, and freedom of religion. Those are Constitutional rights. Those rights are for liberals and conservatives.

I don't even know what you mean having a "pile" that I would want to "defend."

No, I don't want to tell you (or anyone) who to worship. As a Christian, I want to share the joy and peace that a relationship with Jesus Christ provides but I can't force anyone to worship because worship that's forced is meaningless.

"Different" doesn't mean uniformed or stupid.

Yes, I did go to college and paid my dues. What's wrong with that?

Are you saying that only conservative people want to keep what they've earned, to spend it the way they want? Does that mean liberal people want the government to take all their money?

Guess what? There are poor, unemployed conservative people, and there are rich, employed liberal people.

Conservative people live without health insurance, get laid off from jobs, have pre-existing conditions, and die from cancer just like every one else. It has nothing to do with "karma."
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What's more, I certainly do not mind seeing that top 20 Senators that make the most money are mostly Democrats. But what I do mind is the insinuation that I cannot use my creativity and hard work to earn the money I worked for and have those assholes tell me what I can or cannot do with my money. Keep socialism away from me and my family.
 
sallylou said:
History is a bit more complicated than that. Historians specialize in very limited and specific areas and write about complicated issues.
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There are all kinds of historians. Again, history shows that greater and greater govt control over people's freedom and liberty isn't the answer.
 
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