SEE is a language... It's English...

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Bottesini said:
They could youtube a demonstration. Then I will post my video of me making coffee. Or not.
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:laugh2: I think you making coffee would be far less tedious and boring.
 
jillio said:
And by 1979 there was sufficient research to support that lack of usefullness of the MCEs. And I might mention, since it was brought up, a TC ed environment does not use SEE. They use PSE. All it takes is 5 minutes observation to determine that.
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If even 5.
 
CSign said:
If you choose not to be open to different options, then that is your loss. No big deal ;-) I just wanted to share my experience, which has been effective and positive for my son. I think it is sad for people to shut down something that can be an effective tool for teaching English, if the goal is for the child to be proficient in English. That's all ;-) as you may or may not have noticed, I didn't say other ways are wrong or bad. It's funny to me that one would comment that one is superior to another. I wouldn't go so far as to insult someone who has found an effective way of communicating and teaching their child just because it is different from my experience ;-)
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that is wonderful that whatever the tool you used to help him achieved the proficiency in English.

But... it's funny that you stated that it is sad for people to shut down something that can be an effective tool for teaching English. Don't you think you are shutting down too? Don't you realize that majority of ADers here who replied to your thread do know SEE? They're telling you from firsthand experience that SEE does not work as good as you think. Your son will go down exactly same path as ADers and he will soon denounce TC/SEE.
 
CSign said:
... I am judging it's effectiveness by my sons speech and language skills, his grades, and his level of social comfort. He is able to move between both worlds, as he is a part of both....
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Are you saying that he signs ASL fluently, expressively and receptively, with Deaf ASL signers?
 
jillio said:
And let's get this correct once and for all...SEE is not a language. It is a mode of English. English is the language, SEE is the mode. That is why it falls into the category of Manually Coded English.

ASL on the other hand, is a complete language in and of itself that fulfills all of the linguistic requirements of a language. It is unrelated to English, it is not a way to make English visable, nor is it a code for English.
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Just sign my name to this. I couldn't have said it any better.
 
It has always been my intention to transition to ASL after his foundation in the English language was established.
In terms of past tense, where appropriate you w
 
Woops, pressed wrong button.
Depending on the word you would either add the "d" ending, or a small movement palm backwards towards your body.
"The" can be signed two different ways, I prefer palm in "t" twisting out.
In terms of his ability to sign expressively in ASL, we are w
 
Many people point out to me that there's no way to indicate "past tense" such as in verbs when using ASL. Actually you can...by using signing space, mouth movement, and using the orientation of your hands to indicate. In a true bi-bi classroom, the teacher (in this case, me) would model both languages to the students.

Now when I sign a verb, my students (from two months of practice) can tell you which ending to add to the verb (if it's a regular verb)...-ed, -s/-es/-ies, or -ing. How? They now are more aware of the elements of ASL.

I need to learn how to upload a video on here, and I'll be happy to show you.

I will say this...I DO use S.E.E. for specific lessons in the classroom, but always accompanied with ASL. And I do share your view, but in a different way. If I had a deaf child, she would use Cued Speech in conjunction with ASL. Cued Speech was designed to teach literacy (especially those little -ed and -ing stuff) while supporting ASL users. Many people are quick to disregard Cued Speech. From what I've read and seen, I'm shocked it isn't popular...especially in the bi-bi education classroom.
 
Working on That. However, he can make himself understood to those that use ASL. Receptively he understands most of what's said in ASL, and if he misses something he will usually ask for clarification.
In terms of what your Avatar says PFH, you've got me! I've tried to figure that out for some time and I can't. I must say though, that is not slower than how people speak ;-)
Jiro, I don't see how I've shut anything down. As I stated in the OP, I place high value on ASL. I have always intended on switching to ASL as he got older. I understand it's value and effectiveness. My goal was to communicate, and provide my son with complete access to language and communication. That has been achieved through TC and SEE.

Sorry about the incomplete posts, new phone and getting used to this forum.
 
To reiterate, I am not disagreeing that SEE in and of itself is not a "language." maybe I should have titled the thread differently. However, English is a language which I value just as I value ASL as a language. I have been well aware that SEE is MCE, just don't understand why it seems people here seem to dislike English. I'm trying to bridge the gap. Both are valuable and both serve a purpose.
 
I knew someone who had personalized car plates that read "KELLY THE" because of her fascination with the latter word in SEE. :lol:
 
I'm thrilled he knows how to ask for clarification...many deaf kids don't have that skill, and that is a big factor in language delays for them.

It sounds like he is allowed to socialize with other deaf people...that's GREAT!!! It's really crucial he has that exposure. :)
 
CSign said:
To reiterate, I am not disagreeing that SEE in and of itself is not a "language." maybe I should have titled the thread differently. However, English is a language which I value just as I value ASL as a language. I have been well aware that SEE is MCE, just don't understand why it seems people here seem to dislike English. I'm trying to bridge the gap. Both are valuable and both serve a purpose.
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I am curious, though...why is it not possible for him to learn both languages at the same time? Have you considered using the bilingual approach with him? I'm a teacher at a residential school for the deaf, and I'm using the bilingual approach in some of my classes...
 
My family doesn't use SEE conversationally--except that we approximate it when reading books aloud and encouraging reading and want to match sign for written word. Our preference is that our child have fluent grasp of two different languages: English and ASL, and as many modes as possible. I'm intrigued by the description of SEE as a mode of English.

A couple of questions:
If someone is expert in signed English, would he or she be considered fluent in English, just as is someone expert in another mode, such as written English or spoken English? If not, why would a signed mode not "count" just as a written code would? If so, why would you say that having expertise in this mode (signed English) is not considered knowing a language? Just as knowing the written code for English is considered knowing a language, isn't knowing the signed code also knowing a language, where only the form differs?
 
CSign said:
In terms of what your Avatar says PFH, you've got me! I've tried to figure that out for some time and I can't. I must say though, that is not slower than how people speak ;-)
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Well. It is only "Pain in the ass" and is 1.6 seconds long. Normally people speak 120-150 words a minute - thus translating into 2-2.5 words per second.

That is how fast spoken English is if you had to spell it out. Thus my point is, SEE/Rochester method is never as fast as spoken English. Which reinforces the fact we have this great doubt that you are signing SEE as fast as you're speaking.
 
posts from hell said:
...SEE/Rochester method is never as fast as spoken English. Which reinforces the fact we have this great doubt that you are signing SEE as fast as you're speaking.
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Maybe she speaks slowly, like Al Gore. :dunno:
 
CSign said:
Working on That. However, he can make himself understood to those that use ASL. Receptively he understands most of what's said in ASL, and if he misses something he will usually ask for clarification. In terms of what your Avatar says PFH, you've got me! I've tried to figure that out for some time and I can't. I must say though, that is not slower than how people speak ;-)
Jiro, I don't see how I've shut anything down. As I stated in the OP, I place high value on ASL. I have always intended on switching to ASL as he got older. I understand it's value and effectiveness. My goal was to communicate, and provide my son with complete access to language and communication. That has been achieved through TC and SEE.

Sorry about the incomplete posts, new phone and getting used to this forum.
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Then he isn't doing the code switching. The signers that are communicating with him are doing the code switching.

Why when he gets older? It has been shown through volumes of research that ASL facilitates the learning of another language.
 
He is only considered fluent in English if he can write English fluently.
Written English is a language. Signed English is only a representation of the language. Personally I would consider a fluent signer in M.C.E to be fluent in English, but according to the linguistics field, they do not recognize M.C.E. of any form to be a language, thus using that system would not 'count.' M.C.E does not meet all of the criteria of what makes a language a language.
 
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