School for the Deaf denies deaf child with Down Syndrome placement

[jillio]

Well, you know it is possible that she could really thrive with ASL if she's only moderately mentally affected. It can be very hard to tell how much benifit a mentally disabled kid can get from ASL.
And jillo, the entire IEP team saying that the School for the Deaf is the LRE, even after looking at other placement options, does say something.......you yourself must know how hard it is for an IEP team to agree on somethign like that!

I don't know that the entire IEP team has said that. And there are many reasons that the IEP team wants out of district placement...not the least of which paying out of distict tuition would be cheaper than paying for accommodation at the home school. Remeber, the bulk of the IEP team is made up of employees from the home school district.

 

[CSign]

No, you claim the child was discriminated against. There has been no finding of that to date. Big difference.

Volunteer mentors need to stick to mentoring and leave the educational placement and the law to those that are educated, trained, and experienced. Too many volunteer mentors think they know more about the process than they really do, and in their ignorance, simply create additional problems.

Of couse there is no finding to date because the matter hasn't run it's full course. You were the one who labeled me as a, " volunteer sort of mentor or something." I'm just playing along with your jokes. I have far more knowledge than you know, and your condescending attitude and insults are getting quite old. You are constantly harping on people, and are seriously in need of a massage or something because you are often rude and wound tight.

I'm sure some of you will give me a hard time for saying that, but none of you are willing to call her out on her nonsense.

I'm helping a family advocate for their child who is deaf, and I know exactly what I'm doing. You think I'm making this situation up, or creating more problems then that's A ok. Just quit posting in this thread if you're going to have the same ignorant replies over and over again. It does nobody any good.

 

[Bottesini]

Of couse there is no finding to date because the matter hasn't run it's full course. You were the one who labeled me as a, " volunteer sort of mentor or something." I'm just playing along with your jokes. I have far more knowledge than you know, and your condescending attitude and insults are getting quite old. You are constantly harping on people, and are seriously in need of a massage or something because you are often rude and wound tight.

I'm sure some of you will give me a hard time for saying that, but none of you are willing to call her out on her nonsense.

I'm helping a family advocate for their child who is deaf, and I know exactly what I'm doing. You think I'm making this situation up, or creating more problems then that's A ok. Just quit posting in this thread if you're going to have the same ignorant replies over and over again. It does nobody any good.

I am curious as to why you don't say what your qualifications are? It's going to be a little hard to trust a person who says they are just playing along with people's assumptions.

Why would you want to discuss it here if you don't want to tell the truth?

 

[jillio]

Of couse there is no finding to date because the matter hasn't run it's full course. You were the one who labeled me as a, " volunteer sort of mentor or something." I'm just playing along with your jokes. I have far more knowledge than you know, and your condescending attitude and insults are getting quite old. You are constantly harping on people, and are seriously in need of a massage or something because you are often rude and wound tight.

I'm sure some of you will give me a hard time for saying that, but none of you are willing to call her out on her nonsense.

I'm helping a family advocate for their child who is deaf, and I know exactly what I'm doing. You think I'm making this situation up, or creating more problems then that's A ok. Just quit posting in this thread if you're going to have the same ignorant replies over and over again. It does nobody any good.

If you have far more knowlege than I know, it would be helpful if you would start demonstrating it here. It would certainly increase your credibility. And I am referring to correct and useful knowlege, not misperceptions.

So tell us, what is it that you expected to accomplish with this thread?

 

[GrendelQ]

I don't see why it's necessary or even desirable that individuals posting or commenting provide qualifications, name, places of work, CVs, publications, degrees, or other specialized training on this forum to engage in discussions about how a family can best obtain the placements defined by the IEP team in answer to the requirements outlined in an IEP.

No one here is working in a professional capacity on this forum, and while some of us may be professionals and experts on various subjects in the real world, this group does not take the place of an expert panel, it's a bunch of mostly anonymous individuals with varying degrees of experience navigating deaf education either on their own behalf or on behalf of family and others.

Demanding the name of the school is unreasonable and asking this poster to "out" herself in the professional / advisory capacity in which she's acting is out of line and compromises the privacy of the family. I'm very open about my child's school, and not willingly at first, but because I felt I had to counter early insistence that she must be at some oral school given her CIs. Also because I'm very pleased with and proud of her school, and I hope others consider schools for the deaf even in cases where a child has excellent access to spoken language, given the unique learning and social needs of deaf kids. If we were in a confrontational situation, however, I know that as a mom I'd be very unhappy to find my child and her school unmasked and the situation publicized against my will because of some demand made on one of our many professional advocates to identify herself even only in part.

Csign knows the situation, the requirements of the IEP, and the decisions made in determining this particular deaf school as the right placement. I think she was simply looking for advice on implementing that decision. None of us have enough info to argue the merits of the decisions made by either the IEP team or the deaf school. But many have experience managing school administrators who may not be acting in the best interests of a deaf child.

 

[jillio]

I don't see why it's necessary or even desirable that individuals posting or commenting provide qualifications, name, places of work, CVs, publications, degrees, or other specialized training on this forum to engage in discussions about how a family can best obtain the placements defined by the IEP team in answer to the requirements outlined in an IEP.

No one here is working in a professional capacity on this forum, and while some of us may be professionals and experts on various subjects in the real world, this group does not take the place of an expert panel, it's a bunch of mostly anonymous individuals with varying degrees of experience navigating deaf education either on their own behalf or on behalf of family and others.

Demanding the name of the school is unreasonable and asking this poster to "out" herself in the professional / advisory capacity in which she's acting is out of line and compromises the privacy of the family. I'm very open about my child's school, and not willingly at first, but because I felt I had to counter early insistence that she must be at some oral school given her CIs. Also because I'm very pleased with and proud of her school, and I hope others consider schools for the deaf even in cases where a child has excellent access to spoken language, given the unique learning and social needs of deaf kids. If we were in a confrontational situation, however, I know that as a mom I'd be very unhappy to find my child and her school unmasked and the situation publicized against my will because of some demand made on one of our many professional advocates to identify herself even only in part.

Csign knows the situation, the requirements of the IEP, and the decisions made in determining this particular deaf school as the right placement. I think she was simply looking for advice on implementing that decision. None of us have enough info to argue the merits of the decisions made by either the IEP team or the deaf school. But many have experience managing school administrators who may not be acting in the best interests of a deaf child.

Then why are we even discussing the situation? Those of us attempting to advise her have been upfront with our credentials and experience. She evidently believes, despite those combined years of experience and education, that we have no idea what we are talking about, and she knows better. If she knows exactly what to do and how to do it, why are we discussing anything?

I believe we saw the same respsonse when she started a thread stating that Signed English was preferable to ASL, and the ASL using community, as well as professionals in the field corrected her, she did not learn. She simply kept replying with "I know what I'm talking about" while demonstrating the opposite.

And the plain fact of the matter is, information regarding matters of placement should be coming from professionals. Evidently, CSign doesn't want advise, she wants us to tell her what a wonderful person she is for undertaking this battle for a child that isn't even hers.

This deaf school was determined not to be the right placement by the deaf school. Ultimately, they are the ones that make that decision, not the home school district. Any contract school can refuse a child for placement if they believe that child will not be served by their programs. It would appear that no one here can help her.

 

[CSign]

If you have far more knowlege than I know, it would be helpful if you would start demonstrating it here. It would certainly increase your credibility. And I am referring to correct and useful knowlege, not misperceptions.

So tell us, what is it that you expected to accomplish with this thread?

Ok, let me reword it for you. I know far more than you are giving me credit for. Honestly IDGARA what you think about me and what I'm doing.

 

[CSign]

I am curious as to why you don't say what your qualifications are? It's going to be a little hard to trust a person who says they are just playing along with people's assumptions.

Why would you want to discuss it here if you don't want to tell the truth?

This is crazy. What would I have to gain to sit here and lie about this situation? Playing along with what assumptions?

 

[jillio]

Ok, let me reword it for you. I know far more than you are giving me credit for. Honestly IDGARA what you think about me and what I'm doing.

Again, it would be helpful if you would start demonstrating it.

Personally IDGARA about you. It is deaf children and their educational environments and their linguisitic environments that I am concerned with. It is reduction of audist attitudes that keep deaf students mired in less than satisfactory placements that I am concerned with. It is deaf schools being used as dumping grounds that I am concerned with. I have many, many concerns...and none of them really have anything to do with you. Don't flatter yourself.

 

[jillio]

This is crazy. What would I have to gain to sit here and lie about this situation? Playing along with what assumptions?

I could make a list as long as my arm regarding the gains people receive from behaviors.

 

[shel90]

I don't see why it's necessary or even desirable that individuals posting or commenting provide qualifications, name, places of work, CVs, publications, degrees, or other specialized training on this forum to engage in discussions about how a family can best obtain the placements defined by the IEP team in answer to the requirements outlined in an IEP.

No one here is working in a professional capacity on this forum, and while some of us may be professionals and experts on various subjects in the real world, this group does not take the place of an expert panel, it's a bunch of mostly anonymous individuals with varying degrees of experience navigating deaf education either on their own behalf or on behalf of family and others.

Demanding the name of the school is unreasonable and asking this poster to "out" herself in the professional / advisory capacity in which she's acting is out of line and compromises the privacy of the family. I'm very open about my child's school, and not willingly at first, but because I felt I had to counter early insistence that she must be at some oral school given her CIs. Also because I'm very pleased with and proud of her school, and I hope others consider schools for the deaf even in cases where a child has excellent access to spoken language, given the unique learning and social needs of deaf kids. If we were in a confrontational situation, however, I know that as a mom I'd be very unhappy to find my child and her school unmasked and the situation publicized against my will because of some demand made on one of our many professional advocates to identify herself even only in part.

Csign knows the situation, the requirements of the IEP, and the decisions made in determining this particular deaf school as the right placement. I think she was simply looking for advice on implementing that decision. None of us have enough info to argue the merits of the decisions made by either the IEP team or the deaf school. But many have experience managing school administrators who may not be acting in the best interests of a deaf child.

Then why is the argument is still going on even after some of us suggested to appeal? It is really out of our hands especially with the little information given.

CSign may feel she has given enough information but as a professional, I dont have enough to really form an opinion.

I did ask questions and pose possible scenarios and I get called "not sincere?"

If the child is getting discriminated, then go to the courts. Otherwise, bitching about it is not going to solve it.

 

[deafdyke]

Good post Shel!!!!!! Again, just to make it 100% clear, overall we support Deaf Schools as a placement for kids with intellectucal disabilties. MANY mild mentally disabled kids, especially those who may have strong " scattered" skills (ie they may have regular academic abilty in some areas) can fit in well at a Deaf School with a special needs program.
n

d the plain fact of the matter is, information regarding matters of placement should be coming from professionals. Evidently, CSign doesn't want advise, she wants us to tell her what a wonderful person she is for undertaking this battle for a child that isn't even hers.

This deaf school was determined not to be the right placement by the deaf school. Ultimately, they are the ones that make that decision, not the home school district. Any contract school can refuse a child for placement if they believe that child will not be served by their programs.

You know......I have a hunch about which Deaf School this is.
Maybe look at Riverside? They have eleven special needs classrooms....It really does seem to be lack of space for special needs kids... Definitly keep appealing.

 

[Daredevel7]

Thank god I am an engineer. Seems like no one GARA about my experiences, qualifications, nor credentials. Whew....

CSign, I understand what you are doing, but you do realize that all you want to hear from us is major support (be your cheerleaders), not constructive criticism. I admit that a large part of the responses are basically thinly veiled insults but I saw a few posts with real concerns/constructive criticism. However, I doubt you will get what you want. So I understand from your POV that you feel the need to be defensive because you believe that you are making a huge difference in a child's life, but honestly, it's pointless to defend yourself. If you are confident in your role in this child's life, then so be it, no need to get into a pointless cyberspace catfight. But if you are not confident, then read the past threads about what could possibly happen, find alternatives or people with experience to contact, or to make yourself better aware of possible outcomes of the situation.

 

[CSign]

My goal was never to "be a savior" for this child, nor was I looking for people to tell me how great I am. My purpose was to share an injustice that was done to an innocent child, and to share this situation with others. I expected some negativity (that's a given), but I did think that others would have stepped up and acknowledged this deaf Childs right to ASL. I thought that some would have shown support and distaste at the situation, rather than accusing me of fabricating a story.

I don't know what other information I could have provided that wouldn't have compromised this Childs privacy.

Shel- my comment about being sincere was not directed at you. It was in regards to my comment about Bottesini's school experience. I also thought I answered your question,
but maybe I missed it.
I personally think discrimination of any kind is appalling; whether it be against a deaf person, a blind person, or a deaf-blind person. It's not okay with me to discriminate against someone for who they are.

Beyond that, just because a person has a secondary disability doesn't change
the fact that they are deaf. A deaf person; regardless of anything, is entitled
to have access to their education and social settings. They have the same
right to their visual language as the next person. After all, isn't that what most
of you are fighting for? Your right to utilize and have access to a language
that is accessible?

 

[jillio]

Good post Shel!!!!!! Again, just to make it 100% clear, overall we support Deaf Schools as a placement for kids with intellectucal disabilties. MANY mild mentally disabled kids, especially those who may have strong " scattered" skills (ie they may have regular academic abilty in some areas) can fit in well at a Deaf School with a special needs program.
n You know......I have a hunch about which Deaf School this is.
Maybe look at Riverside? They have eleven special needs classrooms....It really does seem to be lack of space for special needs kids... Definitly keep appealing.

So, you think Riverside is the school in question, or are you suggesting Riverside as another possibility for placement? Wasn't sure which it was.

But you know, the fact remains that without assessment results, knowing what tests were used in that assessment, and observing social interaction from a professional perspective, no one can know what the best placement for this child is. Too many variables that have to be considered in placement decisions are missing. The one red flag I saw was the low vocab. An approx 200 words for a child entering the public school system is extremely low. That would interfere with not just academic content, but with social interaction with peers and making her needs known to staff. If there is not sufficient communication capabilities, then perhaps it is a matter of intensive work on communication and vocab in order to fit into one of the more standard programs for deaf children. Who knows. So far, the low level vocab is the only clue to functioning. DS occurs on such a continuum that without test results and observation no one knows where on that continuum she falls.. Likewise, no one knows just exactly how her deafness and her DS interact to form other functional limitations.

We can't second guess the deaf school's decision without any of that assesssment information. If they made a decision not to accept the child for contract placement, they had to have valid reasons for doing so. They know the legal ramifications, and are certainly not going to risk, needlessly, a lawsuit without sufficient information to support their decision. And the home school district is likely to be placing blame on the deaf school to get out from under the fact that placement is, ultimately, the responsibility of the home school district. If one of their contract schools decline a student, then it is their responsibility to find alternative placement for that child. Doesn't appear that they have done so.

 

[jillio]

My goal was never to "be a savior" for this child, nor was I looking for people to tell me how great I am. My purpose was to share an injustice that was done to an innocent child, and to share this situation with others. I expected some negativity (that's a given), but I did think that others would have stepped up and acknowledged this deaf Childs right to ASL. I thought that some would have shown support and distaste at the situation, rather than accusing me of fabricating a story.

I don't know what other information I could have provided that wouldn't have compromised this Childs privacy.

Shel- my comment about being sincere was not directed at you. It was in regards to my comment about Bottesini's school experience. I also thought I answered your question,
but maybe I missed it.
I personally think discrimination of any kind is appalling; whether it be against a deaf person, a blind person, or a deaf-blind person. It's not okay with me to discriminate against someone for who they are.

Beyond that, just because a person has a secondary disability doesn't change
the fact that they are deaf. A deaf person; regardless of anything, is entitled
to have access to their education and social settings. They have the same
right to their visual language as the next person. After all, isn't that what most
of you are fighting for? Your right to utilize and have access to a language
that is accessible?

No one is denying this child's right to ASL. I have no idea where you have read that in any of the responses.

No,having a secondary disability does not change the fact that a child is deaf. However, it does interact in specific ways with that deafness to create functional limitations and needs that are not evident in children without secondary disabilities. You cannot simply ignore the fact that the child has a secondary disability when deciding appropriate placement based on that child's needs as determined by assessment and testing.

School placement is much more than a "right to ASL". You are attempting to fight this battle from that very superficial stance when placement, especially where secondary disabilities are concerned, and most especially when those secondary disabilities are of a cognitive category, is a very complicated and individualized process.

 

[deafdyke]

I was suggesting Riverside as an alternative placement...or Csign, you might want to contact Riverside, since they may have more experiance with severe kids. You're really missing that this sounds like a VERY difficult case.

DS occurs on such a continuum that without test results and observation no one knows where on that continuum she falls.. Likewise, no one knows just exactly how her deafness and her DS interact to form other functional limitations.

We can't second guess the deaf school's decision without any of that assesssment information. If they made a decision not to accept the child for contract placement, they had to have valid reasons for doing so. They know the legal ramifications, and are certainly not going to risk, needlessly, a lawsuit without sufficient information to support their decision. And the home school district is likely to be placing blame on the deaf school

This.
Most Deaf Schools are very experianced with mildly mentally handicapped kids. This severe of a secondary disabilty plus deafness, makes this SUPER hard...especially since we don't really have a clue beyond the basics about this case. jillo, you are right. The low level of signed language IS a huge red flag . ..that does mean that she might be able to benifit more from an AAC/SH style class....

 

[CSign]

I was suggesting Riverside as an alternative placement...or Csign, you might want to contact Riverside, since they may have more experiance with severe kids. You're really missing that this sounds like a VERY difficult case.

This.
Most Deaf Schools are very experianced with mildly mentally handicapped kids. This severe of a secondary disabilty plus deafness, makes this SUPER hard...especially since we don't really have a clue beyond the basics about this case. jillo, you are right. The low level of signed language IS a huge red flag . ..that does mean that she might be able to benifit more from an AAC/SH style class....

Why the incessant need to tell me I'm "missing things" and that I "don't understand." What would give you the impression that I don't understand?? I get it- I know this isn't a straightforward case.

Additionally, her lower level of expressive language is such because of the Down syndrome. That is true with most kids who have DS, their receptive language far supersedes their expressive language. Put her in a class without consistent visual communication and she will flounder. She certainly wouldn't be expanding on her language if she isn't accessing it.

 

[jillio]

Why the incessant need to tell me I'm "missing things" and that I "don't understand." What would give you the impression that I don't understand?? I get it- I know this isn't a straightforward case.

Additionally, her lower level of expressive language is such because of the Down syndrome. That is true with most kids who have DS, their receptive language far supersedes their expressive language. Put her in a class without consistent visual communication and she will flounder. She certainly wouldn't be expanding on her language if she isn't accessing it.

That is exactly why she doesn't belong in a school for the deaf that does not have services available to address her DS needs. Put her in a class with visual communication that is not modified to address her DS needs and she will flounder.

 

[CSign]

That is exactly why she doesn't belong in a school for the deaf that does not have services available to address her DS needs. Put her in a class with visual communication that is not modified to address her DS needs and she will flounder.

What makes you think they don't have the services available to meet her needs?