School for the Deaf denies deaf child with Down Syndrome placement

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I'm going to let Bott to speak for herself. It's not my place to speak for her. I'm just protective of my friends.
 
sallylou said:
I'm going to let Bott to speak for herself. It's not my place to speak for her. I'm just protective of my friends.
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You were doing better than I was. I thought she can't understand my English writing style. And I decided not to participate here.

If I say something, unless it is a question, I don't want to talk about it more.

I was only trying to tell her how that child may suffer.
 
Bottesini said:
You were doing better than I was. I thought she can't understand my English writing style. And I decided not to participate here.

If I say something, unless it is a question, I don't want to talk about it more.

I was only trying to tell her how that child may suffer.
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I really hope that this child does not suffer.

I think you write very well, and I'm always able to understand your posts. I was not being dismissive of your experience. If you look at my previous post, my intention was to validate what you said. I believe that you didn't have a good experience, and I really am saddened to hear that. I am happy though, that it seems you've found your strength and pride. For that I can be happy. I want this child to have a fighting chance at life- and the other placement options won't enable her to make progress.
 
sallylou said:
I'm going to let Bott to speak for herself. It's not my place to speak for her. I'm just protective of my friends.
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As you should be protective of your friends- but in this situation there really was nothing to defend or protect.
 
As a teacher myself, I don't have enough information to form an opinion about this case...just wish the best for the child. Sorry I can't ber more of help without more information
 
The school has a program that she could be educated in without any modifications to the curriculum. If she were labeled in terms of how well she functions, she is "moderately impaired" although I don't like that terminology.
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In that case, I'm on your side! If there is a formal sizable special needs program(like a self contained classroom dealie) and she is only moderately MR, it does sound like she would be OK. She couldn't be in the regular classroom.... and the parents aren't fighting for her to be in the regular classroom right? I think a lot of people thought that she was more on the severe end of functioning. In other words, she functions on the level of a little kid. It's not as bad as a severe kid. Moderate kids can still learn say....first or second grade level stuff.
And there is always the possibilty that she's smarter then everyone thinks, and in an ASL enviroment, she could improve immensely!
Because I told you about my schooling and what would most likely happen to your DS student, you basically shoved my opinion aside to say that you agreed with me.

I know several students my age or a little older, like me, who did attend a deaf school and had the experience I told you your student will likely have. Teachers won't be there every moment to make sure she isn't bullied.
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Botte, I'm not being dismissive of your experiance. But I doubt that when you were in deaf school, they had mentally handicapped or autism or other special needs programs. . I think the program that CSign is talking about is a MH self contained program.
 
CSign said:
I've given relevant factors, and enough basic information for posters to form an opinion.

This student is deaf, uses ASL, and has an intellectual disability. The school has a program that she could be educated in without any modifications to the curriculum. If she were labeled in terms of how well she functions, she is "moderately impaired" although I don't like that terminology.

She meets all of the eligibility requirements for the school. All other placement options have been explored, and none are appropriate. One of the criterion for admission is that students who don't have other appropriate placement options get priority over other students.

The IEP team- including the school district are in agreement that the school for the deaf is the most appropriate placement for her.
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IF SHE HAS A COGNITIVE DISABILITY THE CURRICULUM HAS TO BE MODIFIED TO MEET THE NEEDS OF THAT COGNITIVE DISABILITY.

You seem to think that just because a student is D/deaf, that their education is all appropriate for students with cognitive disabilities. ASL does not address the functioning needs of a student with cognitive disabilities. It has to be used within a modified curriculum, just as English has to be used within a modified curriculum, in order to address those needs. Otherwise, it would be appropriate to place English using deaf students in a class with the mentally retarded in order to meet their needs.:roll:
 
Bottesini said:
You were doing better than I was. I thought she can't understand my English writing style. And I decided not to participate here.

If I say something, unless it is a question, I don't want to talk about it more.

I was only trying to tell her how that child may suffer.
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She doesn't appear to be interested, in the least, in what the child may suffer. Her only concern is in playing out her fantasy of being some sort of a savior for this child.
And yet, refuses to listen to those than can help her actually do something to make this child's future better.
 
You seem to think that just because a student is D/deaf, that their education is all appropriate for students with cognitive disabilities. ASL does not address the functioning needs of a student with cognitive disabilities. It has to be used within a modified curriculum, just as English has to be used within a modified curriculum,
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jillo, have you missed that CSign has REPEATLY said that they DO have an MH program? And that the student is only moderate? Moderate kids can be served in MH programs. They don't need a severely handicapped program. They are more like first graders or kindergarteners mentaly. I DO agree with you that if there wasn't a MH program, she would definitly fall through the cracks and not be served well. But many, if not most deaf state schools do have special needs programs. (I think the only ones that don't, are the small ones like Hawaii or Montana)
I think you think that CSign may be one of those parents or admins who advocates the new holy temple of INCLUSION, without taking into regard the fact that the curricullum for regular students is FAR above what even some LD kids can understand. The parents of the DS kid don't want her in regular classes......they want her in the Special Needs Deaf Department. I do see where you're going with your thinking. It does seem like a lot of parents of MH kids seem to think that their kids will receive ALL the benifits of inclusion and none of the downsides. They also seem to take any suggestion that their kids might benifit from specialized (non mainstream) schooling as " OH you're telling us to dump wittle Smashlie into an insistution and forget about her, like they did in the old days!" :roll: But I don't think this is the case here, at ALL! The Deaf School has a program.
 
deafdyke said:
jillo, have you missed that CSign has REPEATLY said that they DO have an MH program? And that the student is only moderate? Moderate kids can be served in MH programs. They don't need a severely handicapped program. They are more like first graders or kindergarteners mentaly. I DO agree with you that if there wasn't a MH program, she would definitly fall through the cracks and not be served well. But many, if not most deaf state schools do have special needs programs. (I think the only ones that don't, are the small ones like Hawaii or Montana)
I think you think that CSign may be one of those parents or admins who advocates the new holy temple of INCLUSION, without taking into regard the fact that the curricullum for regular students is FAR above what even some LD kids can understand. The parents of the DS kid don't want her in regular classes......they want her in the Special Needs Deaf Department. I do see where you're going with your thinking. It does seem like a lot of parents of MH kids seem to think that their kids will receive ALL the benifits of inclusion and none of the downsides. They also seem to take any suggestion that their kids might benifit from specialized (non mainstream) schooling as " OH you're telling us to dump wittle Smashlie into an insistution and forget about her, like they did in the old days!" :roll: But I don't think this is the case here, at ALL! The Deaf School has a program.
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Have you missed that CSign has repeatedly said that their evaluation of this child indicates that she does not meet the parameters for that program? Not all programs are the same, nor do they address the same needs just because they are labled "special needs".

She has also said quite a bit that just does not ring true. Such as DP being taken against the deaf school, when anyone involved with due process and special placement knows for a fact that due process is brought against the home school district, not the contract placement.
 
I've not read the whole thread; nor am I going to bother to do so. I do have one comment to make, though.


Why did the OP choose to bring this here for us to argue over? Clearly we are not able to make judgements on where this child should be placed as we are not privy to pertinent documents, evaluations, and, such. This is clearly a situation in which the OP thinks this an outrage and thought that we would share in that outrage. Obviously, many do not.

Sounds like it's time for the OP to pick up her marbles and go play somewhere else. If this child was inappropriately placed, then it will be remedied outside of AD. All WE are doing is conducting a "Kangaroo court", which is going nowhere.....FAST.
 
Not all programs are the same, nor do they address the same needs just because they are labled "special needs".
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Agreed. There is a HUGE difference between mild multihandicapped and severely multihandicapped. Heck there is a HUGE difference between someone who functions on a mild/moderate level and someone who functions more towards the severe end of the spectrum.
I really can't give my opinon. Nobody really knows all the details of this case...and it IS hard to give an opinon without knowing all the facts. I think everyone here agrees that admissions decisons should be on a case by case basis. As a matter of fact, I think if this was a MILD kid or even a mild/moderate kid everyone would be up in arms. CSign is misunderstanding......this isn't about disabilty....it's about DEGREE of disabilty right? Because it IS a fact that kids who are on the moderately severe end of the MR spectrum may not even fit in with mild MR, and may need severely multihandicapped services. CSign, are you familiar with the different degrees of MH? If not, I am not surprised that you're claiming that we're being anti MH. Most people have only interacted with mild MH kids, since those kids make up most of the MH population. Unfortunatly when you get into the more complex MH population, we're talking about kids who are basicly toddlers and even in some cases babies.....a population which is very very difficult to educate.
jillo, I was wondering.......are most dhh multihandicapped MR kids on the mild end of the spectrum? Deaf Ed does seem to be a lot more vibrant then say Blind Ed. (most kids at blind schools are MH now.....and most of those are mildly MH) I have heard of mild MH kids being served well at Deaf Schools, but I have never heard of a moderate or a severe kid being a student at a deaf school. Is that b/c they tend to be served in SH programs? I know actually that Perkins just opened their Deaf Blind program to kids who are Deaf severely disabled.
But yes, jillo you are right. A kid beyond mild/moderate MH would be very difficult to educate at a deaf and even a blind school.
Deaf Schools (even in the special needs department) are very academic. It would be like putting a kid who is at the mental level of a toddler and who is blind, in a Braille class at the blind school.
 
one of the most important things I learned when working with kids and adults with cognitive disabilities was listening to them and seeing how we could take their desires into account:

"I want to be an airline pilot!" why? what do you like about planes or pilots?

"I get to wear a certain hat and clothes and people like me!"

what else do you do that people like? can you think of times someone has told you something they liked about you?

"people told me I have a great smile"

well, maybe there's a way you could volunteer at the airport gift shop and greet people as they come in, we could work on that together.....



people with cognitive disabilities range along a whole continuum and have particular skills, likes and needs as anyone else. Even within a category such as "mild cognitive disability" or "severe cognitive disability" there will be variations in ability within that category; additionally factors such as family involvement, and exposure to the same experiences that people without cognitive disabilities have - also make up characteristics of said individual.
 
deafdyke said:
Agreed. There is a HUGE difference between mild multihandicapped and severely multihandicapped. Heck there is a HUGE difference between someone who functions on a mild/moderate level and someone who functions more towards the severe end of the spectrum.
I really can't give my opinon. Nobody really knows all the details of this case...and it IS hard to give an opinon without knowing all the facts. I think everyone here agrees that admissions decisons should be on a case by case basis. As a matter of fact, I think if this was a MILD kid or even a mild/moderate kid everyone would be up in arms. CSign is misunderstanding......this isn't about disabilty....it's about DEGREE of disabilty right? Because it IS a fact that kids who are on the moderately severe end of the MR spectrum may not even fit in with mild MR, and may need severely multihandicapped services. CSign, are you familiar with the different degrees of MH? If not, I am not surprised that you're claiming that we're being anti MH. Most people have only interacted with mild MH kids, since those kids make up most of the MH population. Unfortunatly when you get into the more complex MH population, we're talking about kids who are basicly toddlers and even in some cases babies.....a population which is very very difficult to educate.
jillo, I was wondering.......are most dhh multihandicapped MR kids on the mild end of the spectrum? Deaf Ed does seem to be a lot more vibrant then say Blind Ed. (most kids at blind schools are MH now.....and most of those are mildly MH) I have heard of mild MH kids being served well at Deaf Schools, but I have never heard of a moderate or a severe kid being a student at a deaf school. Is that b/c they tend to be served in SH programs? I know actually that Perkins just opened their Deaf Blind program to kids who are Deaf severely disabled.
But yes, jillo you are right. A kid beyond mild/moderate MH would be very difficult to educate at a deaf and even a blind school.
Deaf Schools (even in the special needs department) are very academic. It would be like putting a kid who is at the mental level of a toddler and who is blind, in a Braille class at the blind school.
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You really can't make a statement about most. Each case is individual. You have to look at the functional limitations of the individual child and not just their diagnosis.
 
jillio said:
You really can't make a statement about most. Each case is individual. You have to look at the functional limitations of the individual child and not just their diagnosis.
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You're absolutely right. You also can't look at a child who is multi-disabled and say that one disability dominates all the others. You have to look at the child as a whole and determine placement based on all these things considered.
 
Oceanbreeze said:
You're absolutely right. You also can't look at a child who is multi-disabled and say that one disability dominates all the others. You have to look at the child as a whole and determine placement based on all these things considered.
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Exactly. That line that asks for "primary disability" on the form is for diagnostic purposes only. All of the disabilities will interact in ways unique to that child.
 
Agreed with everyone. It can be hard to see how a paper dx translates into the real world, in terms of MH and multihandicapped.
Like for example, some mild MR kids can be basicly functionally severely LD.
And then there are some moderate kids who are very functional academic kids, vs other moderate kids who are more towards the severe end of the spectrum.
I do actually know a lot about more severely multihandicapped kids, since I have a syndrome (and am familiar with related syndromes) that can and does cause stereotypical "severe or profound" MH.
That is really why kids need to go through evlaution so that people experianced with figuring out placement can figure out if its a good educational placement or not.
I do think that this is a tough tough case. It almost sounds like while she IS very significently MH, she is not severe enough for a classic SH classroom. Especially since a SH classroom may not have a lot of Deaf support...or blind support.
I have to say I am very surprised that the blind school does not have a severe sensory impaired unit, to serve kids who while, they may be significently multihandicapped may need dhh or b/LV (blind/low vision) support, and who don't fit into classic SH classrooms.
 
And, we all need to keep in mind, before this child enters into the home school district to have an IEP drawn up to guide placement, comprehensive evaluation must be performed to determine eligibility for services. That evaluation is repeated every 3 years by law. So to maintain that this child was not properly evaluated is subject to skepticism.

Regarding the deaf school's observation of student: they have all of the information from the comprehensive evaluation prior to doing an observation. The purpose of the observation is to see how the information on paper plays out in the way the child actually functions in the environment at the school.

I have no doubt that this child, if said child even exists, was properly evaluated by both the home school district and the deaf school.
 
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