Reasonable accomodation?

[A]

They rot in the street (ok I was being sarcastic there) or file SSI, Either that... or manage it.

or they can find jobs in the deaf field

Deaf people do improve over time just like hearing people do.

 

[shel90]

Here's my question, what happens if they can't do the job because they were failed by the education system? If they aren't literate enough to keep up, etc? What happens to them?

I know so many who were failed by the educational system...

on SSI or working at menial jobs. I have chatted with them and their ASL is sooo fucking superior and they have bright bright minds. Such a damn shame.

 

[faire_jour]

I know so many who were failed by the educational system...

on SSI or working at menial jobs. I have chatted with them and their ASL is sooo fucking superior and they have bright bright minds. Such a damn shame.

It really is horrible...

 

[A]

I know so many who were failed by the educational system...

on SSI or working at menial jobs. I have chatted with them and their ASL is sooo fucking superior and they have bright bright minds. Such a damn shame.

How did that happen? Did the school didn't bother teaching them about Writing?

 

[jillio]

Here's my question, what happens if they can't do the job because they were failed by the education system? If they aren't literate enough to keep up, etc? What happens to them?

Retraining. However, few are unable to perform specific jobs when accomodations are made appropriately. There is a difference between not meeting job requirements, and being able to meet job requirements with accomodation.

 

[jillio]

I know so many who were failed by the educational system...

on SSI or working at menial jobs. I have chatted with them and their ASL is sooo fucking superior and they have bright bright minds. Such a damn shame.

And these are the people that could easily meet the job requirements with accomodation.

 

[faire_jour]

And these are the people that could easily meet the job requirements with accomodation.

But if reading and writing are a required element of the job, how illiteracy be oercome without fundamentally changing the job?

 

[shel90]

How did that happen? Did the school didn't bother teaching them about Writing?

Of course, all schools teach deaf children writing but if the deaf child doesnt have a strong language foundation, then teaching them to read and write will be extremely difficult. That happens too often with many deaf children with the oral-only approach. They end up with a poor language foundation and end up with literacy problems later on.

 

[A]

Of course, all schools teach deaf children writing but if the deaf child doesnt have a strong language foundation, then teaching them to read and write will be extremely difficult. That happens too often with many deaf children with the oral-only approach. They end up with a poor language foundation and end up with literacy problems later on.

That's what I thought, but I wasn't sure. Nowadays we have early infant screening so that should help alot. My sister did not get diagnosed until she was in her elementary year. Lucky for her, My aunt, used to talk to her closely to her alot (she also have a loud voice) when she was staying with my mother, so that helped my sister. My sister was fitted with BTE and could benefit from it.

I was reading Cousin Vinny's blog about history of deaf education/special education.. interesting. He should add the history of MCE as well.

 

[jillio]

Of course, all schools teach deaf children writing but if the deaf child doesnt have a strong language foundation, then teaching them to read and write will be extremely difficult. That happens too often with many deaf children with the oral-only approach. They end up with a poor language foundation and end up with literacy problems later on.

Yep. All those years wasted for the sake of the spoken word.

 

[jillio]

That's what I thought, but I wasn't sure. Nowadays we have early infant screening so that should help alot. My sister did not get diagnosed until she was in her elementary year. Lucky for her, My aunt, used to talk to her closely to her alot (she also have a loud voice) when she was staying with my mother, so that helped my sister. My sister was fitted with BTE and could benefit from it.

I was reading Cousin Vinny's blog about history of deaf education/special education.. interesting. He should add the history of MCE as well.

It is going to take more than early diagnosis. It is going to take a reversal of the current trend toward medicalization and oral only environments. No matter how early a child is diagnosed, many continue to have severe language delays, and are never fluent in the one and only language (English) that they have been exposed to. Why? Oral only environments impede on the developmental stages when language could be acquired.

 

[Daredevel7]

I know so many who were failed by the educational system...

on SSI or working at menial jobs. I have chatted with them and their ASL is sooo fucking superior and they have bright bright minds. Such a damn shame.

How did that happen? Did the school didn't bother teaching them about Writing?

Of course, all schools teach deaf children writing but if the deaf child doesnt have a strong language foundation, then teaching them to read and write will be extremely difficult. That happens too often with many deaf children with the oral-only approach. They end up with a poor language foundation and end up with literacy problems later on.

This confuses me. You said that their ASL was superior, so I would assume that they had a very strong language foundation, so teaching them to read/write should be easy. Unless you are saying that they originally did not have a strong language foundation then obtained superior ASL skills later on in their lives.

Could you clarify for me?

 

[A]

This confuses me. You said that their ASL was superior, so I would assume that they had a very strong language foundation, so teaching them to read/write should be easy. Unless you are saying that they originally did not have a strong language foundation then obtained superior ASL skills later on in their lives.

Could you clarify for me?

Back in the old days, many deaf people do not get diagnosed until elementary years.. and once they do, Some are sent to deaf school while others take the oral route. My grandma's sisters were not diagnosed until it became obvious that they are deaf (they didn't have hearing tests like we do today) ... then they were sent to the deaf school to be taught both oralism and sign language. She never got a hang of oralism (this is was back in the 30's so hearing aids aren't really available even though I'm sure they did have some technologies). sign language became the only language she could access..It was clear to her so her signing was very good. I don't know alot about her writing nor I know how much time they wasted on oralism.

 

[A]

I am with Daredevil. For professional business that requires good English writing, no accommodation should be made. I firmly believe all deaf people are completely capable of having excellent English grammar skills, regardless of their oral speaking ability, when or how they became deaf, etc. I know many many born-deaf who have excellent reading and writing skills, just like I know many hearing people who have abysmal English skills. What it really comes down to is the person's desire to improve their English, whether it is even necessary, and if it is culturally valued.

For many people (deaf or hearing), using good grammar and reading/understanding complex literature is not really a priority, and not really necessary, and to them I say fine, no biggie. I don't berate people on this site for grammar mishaps, but in a professional job where having strong English skills is a requirement, I cut nobody slack. Learn to improve your writing, or take a hike.

To illustrate my point, I tutor a deaf student in writing. This person entered Purdue with writing skills that were barely coherent (ie: 4th grade). In just three years, She has improved to an acceptable college writing level, and it is because she is an extremely hard worker and has a strong desire to improve her written English (she does not speak). So yes, it can be done.

Also, I will tell you one common denominator among all the people, deaf or hearing, that I know whom have excellent writing skills: THEY ALL READ A LOT OF BOOKS.

Jobs where writing is essential doesn't count, I've already covered that. And we already covered that deaf people will improve (although it is very easy to backslide because we can't hear). They had a hard time teaching me because I do speak and rely on speechreading only (no sign language whatsoever)... so limit of language foundation can hurt your writing even if you did improve, the thought process is just different. This girl who can't speak, I'm assuming that she already have a language foundation that help her learn within three years.

 

[shel90]

This confuses me. You said that their ASL was superior, so I would assume that they had a very strong language foundation, so teaching them to read/write should be easy. Unless you are saying that they originally did not have a strong language foundation then obtained superior ASL skills later on in their lives.

Could you clarify for me?

I am talking about adults with superior ASL skills. I dont know if ASL is their first language or not because I didnt know them back then.

 

[Daredevel7]

I am talking about adults with superior ASL skills. I dont know if ASL is their first language or not because I didnt know them back then.

Seems like you can have superior ASL skills without a strong first language foundation.

 

[shel90]

Seems like you can have superior ASL skills without a strong first language foundation.

I dont know what happened to them while they were young. If they were placed in oral-only programs or not.

All I know is that when chatting with them, they are capable of playing around with ASL in such a way that is so creative but struggle with writing advanced English. Their English skills are not poor but not advanced.

Hope that makes sense.

With students, I have always found those who have had a strong first language easier to teach English skills than those who dont.

This thread is talking about deaf people needing to write advanced English for the required jobs, right?

 

[Daredevel7]

I dont know what happened to them while they were young. If they were placed in oral-only programs or not.

All I know is that when chatting with them, they are capable of playing around with ASL in such a way that is so creative but struggle with writing advanced English. Their English skills are not poor but not advanced.

Hope that makes sense.

With students, I have always found those who have had a strong first language easier to teach English skills than those who dont.

This thread is talking about deaf people needing to write advanced English for the required jobs, right?

I asked that question because I thought if someone doesn't have a strong language foundation, they can still learn a language (whether it is ASL or English).

To me, advanced English is for either literature or technical papers.

I am talking about the middle ground that requires a good knowledge of English, more than conversation, such as reports. Let's use a teacher, for example. Don't some of them have to write reports about a child's progress, etc? The important thing is writing down the information as detailed as possible in a comprehensive way, NOT perfect grammar. Right?

I'm talking about things like that.

 

[A]

I think for some deaf, being visual and using visual type of communication such as gestures is naturally learned as their first language, it's no wonder they are great with ASL if oralism failed them. Then when they take ASL, they find out the proper way to communciate (kinda like we keep expanding our vocabulary) but that's my humbled opinion.

 

[faire_jour]

Seems like you can have superior ASL skills without a strong first language foundation.

That's what bi-bi advoctes say every single day. If you don't learn a soild language in young childhood you will be critically handicapped and unable to ever learn fluent language. That is why they insist that ASL is the only choice for young deaf children.

If these adults did not have access to ASL from the start then it shows that ASL can be learned at a later date with great fluency. If they did have ASL from the start, why didn't they learn to read and write? I thought having ASL as your first language makes English acquisition easy??