Other people perspective AGAINST C.I. for the Deaf children

[Angel]

Still do not get what I'm saying, but oh well, I'm done. have fun, peace out

 

[jillio]

Still do not get what I'm saying, but oh well, I'm done. have fun, peace out

Then please explain what it is we are not getting. I want to understand what you are saying but I need your help.

 

[JeepGirl]

this is like.. wayyyy off topic here.. this doesn't have anything to do with the thread that was created.....

perhaps ... once again.. need to be merged into the deaf language section.

I see where all the confusion went. I can see that one person has his/her own theory as the other person doesn't understand or may think that's what he/she is getting at and that's where it gets started.. being offensive... not defensive. one person says something in his/her own theory and not trying to picture or think about what the other person is saying. as this goes along... each person has a different perspective on how we think or say. one person has its own word that makes it simple to understand themselves than other person reading it and adding more words to it.


Thats where... some of you stick your nose up the air and think "I know it all" some of you are alot smarter and using long vocabularies.. some just can't use it.. that's where it got screwed up. at least... just read it over or sign to yourself perhap 2 or 3 times before saying any additional to the other person.

I know you all want to be a big part of this forum but we are here to enjoy and have a heartfelt welcome into the thread or post.

its not about weaknesses.. its not about who's the best, who's better, who suck at english, who's great at gigantic words.. its about understanding this culture.. different cultures. and it should be interesting than just upsetting somebody. I know I'm not perfect. I don't always think I'm right.. I'll admit that I can or will be wrong. but why not try to understand each and every individual's culture than to add up or put words into their mouths to make them feel small?

just my 2 cents.

 

[Miss-Delectable]

Just a quick note. At my class last night, they sign and voice. They had to turn off voices because I read lips. It was difficult. Try changing 36 years of habits!

*chuckling*
Well, there's the challenge for you.

Besides, you'll get the hang of it eventually.

Never too late to learn sign language. Mum learned sign language in her 40's and even now deaf people can understand her.

But she find it difficult to read back if you don't use sim-com.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

*sigh* I noticed that some of you still don't get what Cutepommie and I tried to explain.

Sure, ASL, BSL, ISL, other sign languages in different countries do have hands, facial expressions and body movement but lip movement/speaking like lipreading to match sign language, I referred to.

CutePommie is only person who understand my post and know what I am talking about because we both are British and know what different form of lip movement between ASL and BSL.

I call "speaking" because we use BSL to match our lip movement/speaking accurate what we want to say like we can read people's lip what they want to tell me... speaking is similar as lipreading because speaking match sign language...

Example: a person sign "I need you" should be match speaking/lip movement where the people can read their lips.

ASL: Sure, they use facial expression but not exact match speaking/lip movement to follow the sign language. I watched Sunshinelady and American use ASL with facial expression but not right lip movement to follow sign language... - sometimes no lip movement/speak... Something like that... "need" in sign language but lip movement do not match. I can't follow their lip movement when they sign "I need you" like hearing people can't follow their lip movement when they signing... because it does not match. Understand?

BSL: (It's not just BSL but many different European sign languages) - they signing like ASL but use right lip movement like speaking and good lipreading to help the people to understand what they are talking about. I can read hearing people's lip movement when they speak. It does the same with deaf people who sign with speaking/lip movement which is easier for deaf and hearing people to watch their accurate lip movement and know what they talking about.

http://www.alldeaf.com/our-world-our-culture/48529-coming-out-but-not-what-you-think.html

The example of video, Angel provided in her thread - I watched British deaf man's lip movement to match his sign language when he spoke to his mother. It match prefect like that which ASL doesn't. The form of sign language with Korean and Irish deaf people use to not match their lip movement/speak like ASL.


I met ADers who sign to match their lip movement when they speaking. I don't know ASL much but I understood ADers well with the help from their speaking with lip movement. I watched Angel, Cheri, RebelGirl, Bear, etc's lip movement when they signing and understood what they are talking when I am not 100% ASL as the same as they watched my lip movement when I signing half ASL and half GSL. Their way of sign language on the same time as speaking with correct lip movement is exact same as many Europe countries.


Understand?

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Cuz u are all saying ASL only.

So, there is no such thing as an ASL only program..only as a foreign language requirement in high school and college where the classes are just taught with ASL only...meaning no English and no speech in those classes.

Maybe in the old days they had ASL only programs cuz the educators believed that deaf people werent capable of learning how to read and write nor develop speech.

In todays times, all programs that use ASL include English and speech classes.

Okay, I thought it's logic to say ASL only which mean is no speech therapy including. English are including any sign languages automatic when I mentioned ASL only because deaf children learn to read and write. I never thought that you misinterpreted my post over ASL only and thought I mean without English and speech therapy. Okay, it's my mistake for not add English in my post with ASL.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

No it is not same way as ASL and BSL and if it is same way and how come i can not able to understand ASL
I used to be BSL tutor for 11 years and yes no need to use
voice because it does help the students to learn by use their eyes instead of ears, because we deaf people only use their eyes to watch the sign langauge, And the students asked me does i use my voice I replied yes I does and while during on the course am not allow to use the voice and it very important because deaf people can not hear when hearing people speak like eg: when hearing person say 50 and deaf person not sure they mean it is 15 or 50 because it look similar so it very important for student to understand that it does look similar like 15/50. 14/40. So you try then you will understand what i does mean.
To be honest there are nothing much similar between ASL and BSL.
Yet I do use my voice with signs only for some reason lol when am angry or piss off

Correct...

Yes, that's right Deaf tutors should use without voice when they educated hearing students because they should watch their sign language with lip movement with their own eyes instead of ears. It does the same here in Germany as well

....but I can't understand that someone stated in their previous posts that deaf teacher should sign deaf students without voice because it would confused them if they sign with voice which is not sense to me because deaf children can't hear...

My opinion is up to deaf students either they sign and speak/lip movement with or without voice.


What do you think of this?

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Originally Posted by Liebling))
No, there're difference between ASL and BSL. Don't forget that I born and raised in England. Many Europeans know American way of use sign language only without speaking.

BSL - sign language with speak (still speaking with or without voice).
ASL - sign language without speak (no even speaking).

I withnessed several Americans in real life here in Germany. They use ASL without speaking, just sign language without lip movement. It's hard for me to watch their just signing. I visited USA last July 2007 and met ADers in real life and told them that their way of sign language with speaking (I am not interesting either they use voice or not) is the same as many European countries. We understood each other prefect only when they speak on the same time as signing. ADers, I met in real life give me right that some American's way for use sign language without speaking. They do sometimes but with me, they signing with speak and also other ADers as well.

I realize that there are differences in BSL and ASL. However, both are forms of sign language, complete in and of themselves, and not manual representations of English. In the link I provided, the gentleman in the video is signing without voice, therefore without speaking, in the same way that an American signer would sign ASL without voice. You and Cheri kept saying that BSL was always sign + speech, unless I misunderstood your posts, so I was simply offering an example of BSL sithout voice.

jillio's post
The signs may be different just as the signs in SLL, NSL, FLS, ASL, BSL, and any other signed language or spoken language will differ. However, the fact that they are pure languages and not interpretations of the spoken language of that country makes them the same in their method of communication. I did not mean that all the signs in ASL and BSL are the same. What I meant was, they are both complete languages and not interpretations of the spoken language, and therefore, are signed without voice when they are used in their pure forms. And you have confirmed my point. They are signed without voice. Cheri and Leibling were saying that BSL is always signed with voice....sign and speech together.

I never said that BSL is always signed with voice or speech... See red bold...BSL: sign language with speak (still speaking with or without voice) which mean is sign language to match accurate speaking like lipreading which is easier for the people to read our lips.

See my explanation over the difference form of lip movement between ASL and BSL in my post.

http://www.alldeaf.com/903104-post325.html

CutePommie confirmed my point, not your point.

Yes, we all know that we use sign languages with facial expression and body movement same but we tried to convince over BSL speaking with lip movement which is total different as ASL.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

We understand what you are saying Cheri, but English and ASL are two separate languages. That is why they are not used together. To use them together, the teacher would have to speak in ASL syntax, which is not a proper model of English and not useful when teaching English grammar and syntax, or sign in English syntax, which is not a proper model of ASL, and is useless in teaching ASL syntax and grammar.

Yes, I know that bi-bi programs is for sign language before English. Yes, they are separate languages between sign language and English but.... I am trying to understand what bi-bi program is about... what I know here in Germany.

Do deaf children have 2 teachers in classroom? = one hearing teacher is for English (of course he/she signing with speaking/lip movement but I beleive that hearing teacher signing with voice but without voice... ) and deaf teacher is for sign language and speaking with lip movement no matter either they use voice or not.

I beleive that deaf and hearing teacher should speak with accurate lip movement which help deaf students to read anyone's lip easier.

I was confused in some posts that deaf teacher must sign deaf students without voice because it should not confuse deaf children if deaf teacher use voice when she/he signing? It make no sense to me because deaf students can't hear either deaf teacher signing with voice or not but watch teacher's signing and lip movement with their own eyes. ?

 

[Liebling:-)))]

You have realized no deaf is the same as another deaf.

From my experience, I uses my voice whenever I sign at all times even in SEE, and even ASL.

Example: in ASL I would sign and voice "I go store" it's up to another deaf person if she/he wishes to watch my mouth and signs the same time, even interpreters in my experience mouth the words too while they're signing.

We KNOW they are TWO different languages we are not bunch of retard deaf people, Tousi.

Exactly what CutePommie & I tried to explain in our previous posts.

Yes each deaf person is different who prefer to watch sign language only (hands) and other deaf person prefer to watch lip movement on the same time as they signing like what we did last July 2007.


I prefer to watch deaf and hearing people's lip movement when they signing on the same time as they speak. I can't follow when there're inaccurate lip movement to match sign language.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

In the educational setting where complex concepts are taught in all subjects, it is critical to keep both languages separate so the kids can focus on learning the different concepts rather than trying to make sense of two languages being mixed together.

Understood...

Do you must to not use voice or lip movement like lipreading when you sign your deaf students?

I thought it's up to you either you want to use voice or not when you signing with or without lip movement to your deaf students because deaf students can't hear but their own eyes. Right?

 

[Cheri]

I beleive that deaf and hearing teacher should speak with accurate lip movement which help deaf students to read anyone's lip easier.

I was confused in some posts that deaf teacher must sign deaf students without voice because it should not confuse deaf children if deaf teacher use voice when she/he signing? It make no sense to me because deaf students can't hear either deaf teacher signing with voice or not but watch teacher's signing and lip movement with their own eyes. ?

ASL itself is no relation to English, ASL shares more with spoken Japanese than it does with English
I don't see the differences if they sign ASL and use their voice with the signs because both ways is the same. What do they rather do? Sign ASL and mute the words? What if a deaf child don't understand a sign or two. Too bad for them?

 

[vallee]

*chuckling*
Well, there's the challenge for you.

Besides, you'll get the hang of it eventually.

Never too late to learn sign language. Mum learned sign language in her 40's and even now deaf people can understand her.

But she find it difficult to read back if you don't use sim-com.

Can you tell me what sim-com is?

I have to practice tonight.

 

[CutePommie]

I know how you feel CutePommie,

Yeah and thanks

 

[CutePommie]

Correct...

Yes, that's right Deaf tutors should use without voice when they educated hearing students because they should watch their sign language with lip movement with their own eyes instead of ears. It does the same here in Germany as well

....but I can't understand that someone stated in their previous posts that deaf teacher should sign deaf students without voice because it would confused them if they sign with voice which is not sense to me because deaf children can't hear...

My opinion is up to deaf students either they sign and speak/lip movement with or without voice.


What do you think of this?

Yes you are very correct what you said up there, I agree that it up to deaf students if they want use their voice or not when they sign with speak/lip movement.
Once time one of deaf person want try to use DeafBlind's manual to commuciate with deaf/blind person and he was panic I explain to the deaf person how to use and he said I have to commuciate with deafblind person explain that this deaf person very nervous how to commuciate so I show deaf person how to use this deafblind's manaul and deaf person said to me * Wow you too fast * and he unable to understand to follow because I was not use the lip movement while commucaite with deafblind person and I aplogize to deaf person then I have explain to deafblind if dont mind that I have to repeat because this deaf person need to understand and deafblind person say that fine no problem so I used lip movement while I use deafblind's manual to commucaite with deafblind person and the deaf person said * Oh thank you for your lipread while commucaite with deafblind person so I can able to understand to follow*
Yes it important to having use lip movement while use any of different way of signers ..
Oh boy!! it is lots of various way of use signers with voice or no voice etc ..
It is up to deaf people if the want use their voice with signer or without unless if they can use lip movement ..
On depend where they got educationed from some area have poor educationed as like I received very poor education now you all can see my typing of english is not good.

Hope it does to help to clear to understand...
As least I have tried.
Lol sorry has to laugh because when I am at work I doesn't use my voice when I signs with lip movement to all my work colleagues they all are hearing and most of them does can use fully or partly BSL signers.

 

[jillio]

I never said that BSL is always signed with voice or speech... See red bold...BSL: sign language with speak (still speaking with or without voice) which mean is sign language to match accurate speaking like lipreading which is easier for the people to read our lips.

See my explanation over the difference form of lip movement between ASL and BSL in my post.

http://www.alldeaf.com/903104-post325.html

CutePommie confirmed my point, not your point.

Yes, we all know that we use sign languages with facial expression and body movement same but we tried to convince over BSL speaking with lip movement which is total different as ASL.

Yes. shel and I both understand now that you meant sign with lip movement, not sign with voice. When you typed "sign with speaking" we both thought you meant "sign with voice". We both understand now that is not what you meant, and we have agreed.

 

[jillio]

Can you tell me what sim-com is?

I have to practice tonight.

Sim-com is simultaneous communication, or voice and sign at the same time using one of the MCE's.

 

[jillio]

ASL itself is no relation to English, ASL shares more with spoken Japanese than it does with English
I don't see the differences if they sign ASL and use their voice with the signs because both ways is the same. What do they rather do? Sign ASL and mute the words? What if a deaf child don't understand a sign or two. Too bad for them?

The reason that TODs don't sign ASL and voice at the same time is because the syntax and vocabulary of ASL and English are different. They will use lip movement.

ASL and spoken Japanese are not alike. One is a spoken language, and one is a signed language. The most closely related language to ASL is SLF.

 

[Kalista]

ASL itself is no relation to English, ASL shares more with spoken Japanese than it does with English
I don't see the differences if they sign ASL and use their voice with the signs because both ways is the same. What do they rather do? Sign ASL and mute the words? What if a deaf child don't understand a sign or two. Too bad for them?

I strongly recommend you to borrow books from the library to read many books about Deaf language and will help you to understand better. If you take ASL class, they will explain you more than this thread. It apparently causes everyone frustration to explain again and again.

That is why, it is very frustrated for me to explain to the oralism people. They learned in many wrong sign (homemade sign). I admitted that I criztied their wrong sign. For example, sign car with C up and down. I said ugh it is English. Parents P on forehead to chin It is English use thumb on forehead and chin It is ASL for Parents

*** homemade sign causes too many for Deaf oralism ***

My two sons are very confused because their father speak with sign. I sign with no my voice. Their languages were complicated to figure out how to say in English and ASL. It was so awful for the CODA children.

I strongly advise CODA children visual their Deaf parents with ASL with no voice, they will pick up more ASL faster. They will learn how to speak when they are in day care or pre school. They will interact with other hearing children to pick up language from TV, books, etc...

 

[vallee]

ASL itself is no relation to English, ASL shares more with spoken Japanese than it does with English
I don't see the differences if they sign ASL and use their voice with the signs because both ways is the same. What do they rather do? Sign ASL and mute the words? What if a deaf child don't understand a sign or two. Too bad for them?

I like your way of thinking. What I can't understand is since no two people using ASL the same way, why can't they just accept that each are different? I like the fact of using voices with sign. I lip read and it helps to relate the sign to the word. I have watched many people do that. They did it at my ASL class. My deaf friend, Donna, signs and uses her voice when she talks to me.