Other people perspective AGAINST C.I. for the Deaf children

[shel90]

I like your way of thinking. What I can't understand is since no two people using ASL the same way, why can't they just accept that each are different? I like the fact of using voices with sign. I lip read and it helps to relate the sign to the word. I have watched many people do that. They did it at my ASL class. My deaf friend, Donna, signs and uses her voice when she talks to me.

With lip movement while using ASL, that is understandable.

However, with using voice, especially using English words, while using ASL doesnt make sense to me. Those two languages are completely different in syntax and grammar so unless one is speaking in ASL or signing in English, it is impossible to use both properly at the same time.

However if people use thier voices while singing in social situations, nothing at all wrong with that. I dont really care.

It is in the classroom that I feel strongly about keeping both languages separate so the children can have appropriate models of both languages to help with literacy skills.

 

[shel90]

Understood...

Do you must to not use voice or lip movement like lipreading when you sign your deaf students?

I thought it's up to you either you want to use voice or not when you signing with or without lip movement to your deaf students because deaf students can't hear but their own eyes. Right?

I am sure I do lip movements without voice sometimes with my students. I dont really think about that cuz I am too busy managing my classroom, making sure my students are paying attention, making sure all of them are following the lesson and delivering the lessons. I am not even thinking about speech nor lip movement so I wouldnt be able to answer that.

 

[shel90]

The reason that TODs don't sign ASL and voice at the same time is because the syntax and vocabulary of ASL and English are different. They will use lip movement.

ASL and spoken Japanese are not alike. One is a spoken language, and one is a signed language. The most closely related language to ASL is SLF.

Exactly and thanks for answering.

 

[loml]

Originally Posted by shel90

In the educational setting where complex concepts are taught in all subjects, it is critical to keep both languages separate so the kids can focus on learning the different concepts rather than trying to make sense of two languages being mixed together.

Originally posted by loml

shel90- Suppose you are studying Russia, at the 9th grade level. One of the assisgnments is to read and discuss sections of the book "War of the Worlds" . You must find quotes directly from the book that reflect/imply certain Russian political statements of that era, as per written assignment

Is English the language of instruction here? Why or why not?.

If the students here in America are expected to read and understand the quotes in Russian then they would need to be fluent in Russian as well as in English.

If that was expected in a BiBi program for Deaf/hoh children, then of course, the Deaf kids would be taught the Russian language to be able to understand the concepts of the Russian quotes and use ASL to interpret the meanings.

If that is what u meant.

If u meant Russian literature in English class and niether the deaf nor hearing kids are fluent in Russian, then it would be the teacher's responsibility to find the English version of the phrases.

In a BiBi class, the kids will read the quotes and maybe have a discussion about the meaning behind the quotes in class. They can write a certain quote on the board and then discuss about it, and so on.


I am an elementary ed teacher so my training has been with the young kids not in high school but I would assume that is how the classes would be done if discussing quotes in other languages.

The high school at my work has a Shakespeare Club in which the kids read the quotes and have discussions about the meaning and concepts behind each quote.


From preK to 3rd grade, kids learn to read

From 4th grade and on, kids read to learn information.

So, my job is to get those kids learn how to read, how to identify idioms, English phrases, different meanings of some English words, and so on.

I have never taught reading to learn since I have never taught beyond 3rd grade before.

Hope that answers your question cuz I wasnt sure if I interpreted correctly.

shel90- I did not mean

If the students here in America are expected to read and understand the quotes in Russian then they would need to be fluent in Russian as well as in English.

I was asking you if you are studying the Russian political structure and read a classic book, "The War of the Worlds", used to mirror Russia in Social Studies classes.

Anyway....let me try this again....

If your students are learning about Japan, the country, economics, agriculture, population etc., when they are using the text book, to answer questions about what they have learned in class, what is your language of instruction?

Is it English? If not why not?

Hope that clears it up.

 

[shel90]

Originally Posted by shel90


Originally posted by loml





shel90- I did not mean

I was asking you if you are studying the Russian political structure and read a classic book, "The War of the Worlds", used to mirror Russia in Social Studies classes.

Anyway....let me try this again....

If your students are learning about Japan, the country, economics, agriculture, population etc., when they are using the text book, to answer questions about what they have learned in class, what is your language of instruction?

Is it English? If not why not?

Hope that clears it up.

Last year, I had first grade. Taught them about Japan. Used ASL, English, some Japanese sign language, and some Japanese words. I just showed them that they write differently in Japanese.

I have never taught nor worked in a High school setting for Deaf children so what I just described how it would work if they were studying Russian literature is the best I can do.

 

[jillio]

I like your way of thinking. What I can't understand is since no two people using ASL the same way, why can't they just accept that each are different? I like the fact of using voices with sign. I lip read and it helps to relate the sign to the word. I have watched many people do that. They did it at my ASL class. My deaf friend, Donna, signs and uses her voice when she talks to me.

When you say "no two people use ASL the same" what exactly is it that you mean? Are you talking about using MCEs? Because MCEs and ASL are not the same thing.

 

[jillio]

With lip movement while using ASL, that is understandable.

However, with using voice, especially using English words, while using ASL doesnt make sense to me. Those two languages are completely different in syntax and grammar so unless one is speaking in ASL or signing in English, it is impossible to use both properly at the same time.

However if people use thier voices while singing in social situations, nothing at all wrong with that. I dont really care.

It is in the classroom that I feel strongly about keeping both languages separate so the children can have appropriate models of both languages to help with literacy skills.

Exactly. Hearing people don't use the same form of English in the classroom and in social situations, and in business situations. We use a more formal type of English in the classroom and for written communication, and a much less formal type with lots of slang and colloquiallisms in social situations. However, the informal form of English used in social situations is not appropriate for classroom instruction or for communication when concept must be clear and concise.

 

[jillio]

Originally Posted by shel90


Originally posted by loml





shel90- I did not mean

I was asking you if you are studying the Russian political structure and read a classic book, "The War of the Worlds", used to mirror Russia in Social Studies classes.

Anyway....let me try this again....

If your students are learning about Japan, the country, economics, agriculture, population etc., when they are using the text book, to answer questions about what they have learned in class, what is your language of instruction?

Is it English? If not why not?

Hope that clears it up.

I have yet to see a class that uses "War and Peace" to teach political constructs. "War and Peace" would be studied as a form of literature. It is a novel. If one is teaching political constructs, one does not use fiction to do so. The same with Japan, or any other cultural study. One uses nonfictional texts to study nonficitonal materials. Fiction is relegated to the study of literature.

Again, if one is studying concept, one will use ASL to convey the concept. ESL tecniques are used to study composition, literature, and the English language.

Are you at all familiar with ESL techniques, or the principles and methodologies used? It would appear that, judging from your question, you are a bit confused about the rationale and methodology of Bi-Bi principles.

 

[loml]

Originally posted by loml

shel90- Suppose you are studying Russia, at the 9th grade level. One of the assisgnments is to read and discuss sections of the book "War of the Worlds" . You must find quotes directly from the book that reflect/imply certain Russian political statements of that era, as per written assignment

Is English the language of instruction here? Why or why not?.

I have yet to see a class that uses "War and Peace" to teach political constructs. "War and Peace" would be studied as a form of literature. It is a novel. If one is teaching political constructs, one does not use fiction to do so. The same with Japan, or any other cultural study. One uses nonfictional texts to study nonficitonal materials. Fiction is relegated to the study of literature.

 

[jillio]

Originally posted by loml

I assumed that was a typo, as War of the Worlds is not a political treatise, but a fictionalized account that was produced auditorily over radio. War and Peace is a novel based on political concepts. War of the Worlds was a radio broadcast about invasion from another planet.

 

[loml]

Last year, I had first grade. Taught them about Japan. Used ASL, English, some Japanese sign language, and some Japanese words. I just showed them that they write differently in Japanese.

I have never taught nor worked in a High school setting for Deaf children so what I just described how it would work if they were studying Russian literature is the best I can do.

sel90- You statement below does not apply then?

Originally Posted by shel90

In the educational setting where complex concepts are taught in all subjects, it is critical to keep both languages separate so the kids can focus on learning the different concepts rather than trying to make sense of two languages being mixed together.

What do you seem as a complex concept?

 

[jillio]

sel90- You statement below does not apply then?

Originally Posted by shel90



What do you seem as a complex concept?

How about knowing the difference between "War of the Worlds" and "War and Peace"?

 

[shel90]

sel90- You statement below does not apply then?

Originally Posted by shel90



What do you seem as a complex concept?

I have no idea what point you are trying to make nor what u are talking about.

This kind of class sounds like a college level class and I dont have the experience nor training of teaching a class like that. Maybe someone else better qualified will be able to answer.

 

[shel90]

I have yet to see a class that uses "War and Peace" to teach political constructs. "War and Peace" would be studied as a form of literature. It is a novel. If one is teaching political constructs, one does not use fiction to do so. The same with Japan, or any other cultural study. One uses nonfictional texts to study nonficitonal materials. Fiction is relegated to the study of literature.

Again, if one is studying concept, one will use ASL to convey the concept. ESL tecniques are used to study composition, literature, and the English language.

Are you at all familiar with ESL techniques, or the principles and methodologies used? It would appear that, judging from your question, you are a bit confused about the rationale and methodology of Bi-Bi principles.

That was what I was trying to explain to loml. Either I am the one who is confused or these questions dont make sense.

 

[jillio]

That was what I was trying to explain to loml. Either I am the one who is confused or these questions dont make sense.

Trust me, you are not confused!

 

[jillio]

Here you go, loml. Relieve your confusion.
The War of the Worlds (radio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

 

[loml]

I have no idea what point you are trying to make nor what u are talking about.

This kind of class sounds like a college level class and I dont have the experience nor training of teaching a class like that. Maybe someone else better qualified will be able to answer.

shel90- this is your statement:

Originally Posted by shel90

In the educational setting where complex concepts are taught in all subjects, it is critical to keep both languages separate so the kids can focus on learning the different concepts rather than trying to make sense of two languages being mixed together.

I am simply asking you what you deem a complex concept?

How are you keeping both languages seperate?

If you are in fact using ASL, English, (which presuming you mean in print or are you referring to spoken?) Japanese, JSL, etc , then how are you not mixing up both languages? Or is it combined because of the varying language levels of your students?

 

[jillio]

shel90- this is your statement:

Originally Posted by shel90




I am simply asking you what you deem a complex concept?

How are you keeping both languages seperate?

If you are in fact using ASL, English, (which presuming you mean in print or are you referring to spoken?) Japanese, JSL, etc , then how are you not mixing up both languages?

Because she does not use them simultaneously, duh! And a complex concept would be making sure her students know the difference between a fictional radio broadcast and a classic piece of literature.

 

[loml]

That was what I was trying to explain to loml. Either I am the one who is confused or these questions dont make sense.

shel90 - My apologies, I am referring to the work of George Orwell, "Animal Farm", with regard to political discussion regarding Russia. Pardon my mistake, I hadn't enough coffee earlier.

 

[jillio]

shel90 - My apologies, I am referring to the work of George Orwell, "Animal Farm", with regard to political discussion regarding Russia. Pardon my mistake, I hadn't enough coffee earlier.

Again, Animal Farm is a work of fiction, and would be taught in a literature class. While a discussion of totalitarian regimes would be appropriate from a sociological and political perspective, this work would not be used to teach these concepts. One must understand the concepts before attempting to discuss and apply them to a work of fiction.