Other people perspective AGAINST C.I. for the Deaf children

[deafdyke]

Shel, Have you given them information and resources? I totally would. Maybe invite them to your school for a tour and everything. They might end up deciding to send their daughter to MSD, for Early Intervention. (and that would be AWESOME!) Tell them about your experiances as an "in betweener" and how you really felt, that while oral abilty was good, the downsides of oral only monolingalism weren't really addressed.
Jackie, there's a huge difference between oral training/abilty and being Oral.
You can be orally trained or have oral abilty without being Oral.
Oral means that given a choice between ASL or spoken English, you ALWAYS chose spoken English.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

My two sons are very confused because their father speak with sign. I sign with no my voice. Their languages were complicated to figure out how to say in English and ASL. It was so awful for the CODA children.

I strongly advise CODA children visual their Deaf parents with ASL with no voice, they will pick up more ASL faster. They will learn how to speak when they are in day care or pre school. They will interact with other hearing children to pick up language from TV, books, etc...

My hubby raised oral with signing. He sign with voice to my boys. I sign and speak with lip movement with/without voice like on & off to my boys.

CODA said what we did is okay because our way remain the same to our boys and deaf people is no confusion. If you keep change yourself like on and off (voice your boys then sign without voice to deaf people) is confusison for hearing children, says CODA.

CODA also said that I should not make my hubby to sign without voice to my children but accept what he is and stay what he is. My boys have no problem to know our difference because we stay the same when we with deaf people and our children... no confusion.

One of my friends changed herself for their children because their children are hearing... speak to them.. and sign to deaf people which is very confused... They don't know what their parents are... They wondered why their parents speak them, not sign but sign with deaf people. *scratch their head*. CODA told her what she did is confusion.

 

[shel90]

The only thing disgusted me is those who make hearing parents feel like chit when they choose to implant their deaf children with CI. If hearing aids don't work then what do you expect these parents to do next?

Sometimes the medical community it too quick to implant children. It takes time for those kids to be trained to use hearing aids. I am getting the feeling that the kids try hearing aids without training and nothing happens (which of course will) then it is determined that the HAs dont benefit these children.

The parents told me that the first few tests showed that their daughter was hearing. What if the tests showed that a hearing baby is deaf and that baby gets implanted? Scary

 

[shel90]

Shel, Have you given them information and resources? I totally would. Maybe invite them to your school for a tour and everything. They might end up deciding to send their daughter to MSD, for Early Intervention. (and that would be AWESOME!) Tell them about your experiances as an "in betweener" and how you really felt, that while oral abilty was good, the downsides of oral only monolingalism weren't really addressed.
Jackie, there's a huge difference between oral training/abilty and being Oral.
You can be orally trained or have oral abilty without being Oral.
Oral means that given a choice between ASL or spoken English, you ALWAYS chose spoken English.

The parents definitely do not want their daughter to be oral only. Their thinking is similar to my dad's about putting a child in an environment where he/she has to use his/jher weakest sense to communicate. They said that doesnt make sense. My dad's words exactly!! I laughed.

They want the BiBi approach. They have already been to several deaf programs and are pleased with them so far. I think that's great that they want their daughter to have both.

I just met them for the first time. I think they are seeking to befriend people not "experts". I am sure they have been bombarded with info and I am not going to do that to them. If they ask me questions, I will answer them but I just want to get to know them on a personal level not as a professional. They seem very well informed already. They are taking ASL classes twice a week so I am sure they get info about the Deaf culture and so on.

 

[loml]

I am suggesting nothing. I am stating that Bi-Bi education and oral education are two separate and diametrically opposed philosophies.

I spend an enormous amount of time advocating for the educational philosophy that delivers the greatest amount of benefit tot he majority of the students. If you see that as US vs THEM, then that is yours to deal with. And for someone who spends all their time posting about a 40 year old system that never took off, I find your comment amusing.

When you present me with an opportunity to learn, loml, I will most certainly take advantage of it. As of yet, you have provided nothing new under the sun...just the same old stuff that has been around for 40 years.

Do you have facts to back up your claim that there are no Bi-Bi programs that operate under the specific principles of Bi-Bi education? If so, I owuld like to see them. If not, we'll just consider it to be you throwing things off the top of your head again that cannot be supported.

JT- You are provided with many opportunities to learn, your own bias does not permit you do to so. The mere fact that you have no need to learn Cued Speech, speaks volumes.

There is research available for you regarding Bi-Bi, go look for it.


You state:

I spend an enormous amount of time advocating for the educational philosophy that delivers the greatest amount of benefit tot he majority of the students

In your mind, I am sure that is true, it does not mean that your philosophy is the only way.

Yet dare anyone question your philosophy, that simply makes us uneducated and uniformed in your mind.

Instead of fighting other philosophies you might be best served learning from them. Currently you are unwillingand unable to do so.

 

[jillio]

The parents definitely do not want their daughter to be oral only. Their thinking is similar to my dad's about putting a child in an environment where he/she has to use his/jher weakest sense to communicate. They said that doesnt make sense. My dad's words exactly!! I laughed.

They want the BiBi approach. They have already been to several deaf programs and are pleased with them so far. I think that's great that they want their daughter to have both.

I just met them for the first time. I think they are seeking to befriend people not "experts". I am sure they have been bombarded with info and I am not going to do that to them. If they ask me questions, I will answer them but I just want to get to know them on a personal level not as a professional. They seem very well informed already. They are taking ASL classes twice a week so I am sure they get info about the Deaf culture and so on.

These parents need a friend like you, and it is obvious that they are reaching out. I know that as the parent when my son was their daughter's age, it helped me tremendously tohave deaf adults to bounce ideas off of and to ask questions. I,too, heard what the professionals were telling me, and while it did make sense on an intellectual level, a lot of what they had to say just did not feel right. Things like forcing a child to use their weakest sense to communicate was one of those recommendations. Having a trusted deaf adult to ask "How do you feel about this? Were you placed in that position as a child? How did it affect you?" is very valuable if you want to understand your child as a whole and complete being. Deafness is a part of the child's existence, 24/7. It impacts every part of their life and their learning. It needs to be taken into account as all encompassing. That is what the professionals can't provide. The professionals concentrate on how deafness affects sound persception and that is but one small part of the equation.

I think it is wonderful that you are willing to befriend these parents and to mentor them. It will make things easier not just for them, but in the long run, for their child. Kudos to you, shel.

You have my email address. If you would like to give it to these parents, I don't have a problem with that.

 

[jillio]

JT- You are provided with many opportunities to learn, your own bias does not permit you do to so. The mere fact that you have no need to learn Cued Speech, speaks volumes.

I am provided with opportunities to learn on a daily basis...just not by you. I have learned, many years ago, what is necessary to know about CS in order to evaluate it as a system. I have done so. I see no need to learn to use it as it does not provide a benefit to me, nor to the population I work with.

There is research available for you regarding Bi-Bi, go look for it.

I have research on Bi-Bi readily available to me, and read the latest published information on a daily basis. I refer to it constantly. You, however, have made a statement that is not supported by the research I have seen, and therefore, it is incumbent upon you to support that statement. If you cannot--and it is obvious that you can't--you need to cease making such unsubstantiated statements.


You state: In your mind, I am sure that is true, it does not mean that your philosophy is the only way.

Aye, there's the rub. I have never said that it is the only way. I have said that it is the best way.
Yet dare anyone question your philosophy, that simply makes us uneducated and uniformed in your mind.

Questioning my philosophy does not make anyone uneducated and uninformed. Questioning the Bi-Bi philosophy with complete innacuracies and unsubstantiated claims makes you uninformed. Maiking statements that are completely in error makes you uninformed. Refusal to inform yourself, and simply repeating that which has been spoon fed to you without attempting to analyze it in a comparative manner makes you uneducated.

Instead of fighting other philosophies you might be best served learning from them. Currently you are unwillingand unable to do so.

I am not unable to learn from other philosphies at all. In fact, I have learned volumes from other philosophies, and as such, have undergone the process of comparative study. And what I have learned is that, when all of the philosophies regarding deaf education are compared, the one that best serves the needs of the deaf student from a holistic perspective is the Bi-Bi philosophy. Perhaps if you took the time to do the same, you would have a greater understanding of the issues. Instead, you simply jump in with CS as the panacea for deaf education, without support for your view. You refuse to answer pertinent questions. You refuse to support your position with empirical evidence. You can offer no logical or well thought out arguments to support your claims, and when logical and well thought out arguments are offered to refute your claims, you simply resort to posts such as these. That is what speaks volumes.

MODS: apologies for going off topic, but this post deserved a response.

 

[loml]

A deserving post

JT - Bi-Bi is the best way, iyo. Looks nice in print, but it is far from the real world.

All research is biased, glad to see you read it on a daily bases. You are not the only one, although you like to think that you are.

Your arguments are always the same, no matter what site you paste them on.

You continously make statements about my post that are simply your interpretation, then you make claims that this is what I am claiming. Please refrain from doing so.

You arguments regarding CS are of no merit or substance, but are simply a reflection of your bias.

I need prove nothing to you, although you seem to think I should. You appear to simply never be satisfied, how unfortunate for you.

 

[Angel]

Sometimes the medical community it too quick to implant children. It takes time for those kids to be trained to use hearing aids. I am getting the feeling that the kids try hearing aids without training and nothing happens (which of course will) then it is determined that the HAs dont benefit these children.

I definitely see where you're coming from on this Shel, I'm not a doctor or an audiologist but this has actually been a question on my mind for a long time as "IF the parents or doctors are too quick to give up on hearing aids?", I've read many posts made by parents on this forum, the real reason were because they want to be able to move quickly if the hearing aids do not provide enough benefit for their deaf children. However I do not agree with implanting CI on an infant is because for one, how can they tell when an infant is not getting enough benefit out of hearing aids. I prefer to see at least 90 days trial (or when the child becomes 2 ) with hearing aids to find out if their deaf child can get enough benefit out of them before qualify for cochlear implant. I think the main reasons is lack of insurance coverage for hearing aids, that may play a big role in some of the parent's decision to get cochlear implants for their deaf children instead of hearing aids.

 

[Angel]

"I prefer to see at least 90 days trial"

Let me correct that, I meant 24 months trial. ( Sorry, I'm still sick, so my mind isn't in the right place at this moment, forgive me.)

 

[Bear]

I agree with the worries that by implanting a child too young, that there may be a risk of implanting a baby that is getting alot of benefit from his/her hearing aid.

I dont think that there would be accidental implantings of a hearing child that is misdiagnosed as deaf. But I will say that it is not impossible. As the saying goes *there is always a first time for everything*

I dont see anything wrong with waiting long enough to make sure that there is a true need for a CI. In MY OPINION only, the hearing tests on one so little is not reliable enogh for me to make a decision to implant. I would at least wait till my child was around 2 or 3 to really put much trust in those hearing tests at that age.

 

[shel90]

Let me correct that, I meant 24 months trial. ( Sorry, I'm still sick, so my mind isn't in the right place at this moment, forgive me.)

 

[shel90]

These parents need a friend like you, and it is obvious that they are reaching out. I know that as the parent when my son was their daughter's age, it helped me tremendously tohave deaf adults to bounce ideas off of and to ask questions. I,too, heard what the professionals were telling me, and while it did make sense on an intellectual level, a lot of what they had to say just did not feel right. Things like forcing a child to use their weakest sense to communicate was one of those recommendations. Having a trusted deaf adult to ask "How do you feel about this? Were you placed in that position as a child? How did it affect you?" is very valuable if you want to understand your child as a whole and complete being. Deafness is a part of the child's existence, 24/7. It impacts every part of their life and their learning. It needs to be taken into account as all encompassing. That is what the professionals can't provide. The professionals concentrate on how deafness affects sound persception and that is but one small part of the equation.

I think it is wonderful that you are willing to befriend these parents and to mentor them. It will make things easier not just for them, but in the long run, for their child. Kudos to you, shel.

You have my email address. If you would like to give it to these parents, I don't have a problem with that.

Ok...give me time to establish a friendship with them. They seemed overwhelmed a little.

I want to adopt their daughter!!! She is sooooooo adorable and very very well mannered. She politely asked for her coat as they were leaving. Nobody prompted her! I cant get over how advanced she is. Thank god the parents learned ASL or it would have been a waste of a bright mind if she wasnt getting linguistic input. That is such a scary thought!

 

[shel90]

I definitely see where you're coming from on this Shel, I'm not a doctor or an audiologist but this has actually been a question on my mind for a long time as "IF the parents or doctors are too quick to give up on hearing aids?", I've read many posts made by parents on this forum, the real reason were because they want to be able to move quickly if the hearing aids do not provide enough benefit for their deaf children. However I do not agree with implanting CI on an infant is because for one, how can they tell when an infant is not getting enough benefit out of hearing aids. I prefer to see at least 90 days trial (or when the child becomes 2 ) with hearing aids to find out if their deaf child can get enough benefit out of them before qualify for cochlear implant. I think the main reasons is lack of insurance coverage for hearing aids, that may play a big role in some of the parent's decision to get cochlear implants for their deaf children instead of hearing aids.

I know...things have changed a lot in the past 5 years. The critera keeps changing. I really dont like the idea of implanting infants at all.

 

[jillio]

JT - Bi-Bi is the best way, iyo. Looks nice in print, but it is far from the real world.

All research is biased, glad to see you read it on a daily bases. You are not the only one, although you like to think that you are.

Your arguments are always the same, no matter what site you paste them on.

You continously make statements about my post that are simply your interpretation, then you make claims that this is what I am claiming. Please refrain from doing so.

You arguments regarding CS are of no merit or substance, but are simply a reflection of your bias.

Your arguments regarding CS are of no merit or substance because they have no empirical support. However, the argument for Bi-Bi has been supported empirically numerous times. Therefore, it is not just my opinion, but empirically supported evidence.

If you are indeed, reading that research, why is it that you cannot seem to cite it as support for your arguments? I base my assesments on cross disciplinary findings.
I need prove nothing to you, although you seem to think I should. You appear to simply never be satisfied, how unfortunate for you.

No, you don't need to prove anything to me. I already understand that you have no proof. However, if you expect to garner support for CS, I would certainly suggest that you provide something other than your opinion to convince people, as your opinion is apparently based on incomplete comprehension of many differnet variables and the way they interact and influence the learning process.

Now, how about getting back on topic?

 

[jillio]

Ok...give me time to establish a friendship with them. They seemed overwhelmed a little.

I want to adopt their daughter!!! She is sooooooo adorable and very very well mannered. She politely asked for her coat as they were leaving. Nobody prompted her! I cant get over how advanced she is. Thank god the parents learned ASL or it would have been a waste of a bright mind if she wasnt getting linguistic input. That is such a scary thought!

I'm sure they are overwhelmed, and you are right. Developing a friendship will take time.

If she is already spontaneously using sign that way, it is obvious that the parents not only are signing to her, but in her presence as well. She is picking up not just vocabulary, but pragmatics as well simply from exposure. That is wonderful!

 

[jillio]

I definitely see where you're coming from on this Shel, I'm not a doctor or an audiologist but this has actually been a question on my mind for a long time as "IF the parents or doctors are too quick to give up on hearing aids?", I've read many posts made by parents on this forum, the real reason were because they want to be able to move quickly if the hearing aids do not provide enough benefit for their deaf children. However I do not agree with implanting CI on an infant is because for one, how can they tell when an infant is not getting enough benefit out of hearing aids. I prefer to see at least 90 days trial (or when the child becomes 2 ) with hearing aids to find out if their deaf child can get enough benefit out of them before qualify for cochlear implant. I think the main reasons is lack of insurance coverage for hearing aids, that may play a big role in some of the parent's decision to get cochlear implants for their deaf children instead of hearing aids.

I think you are right, Angel. Insurance benefits often times has a big impact on a parent's decision.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

But it could have been.

Maybe it was resolved in your own little world but you forgot to tell everyone that you were right and we are all wrong.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

I agreed, I've done my share of bashing too, so I'm not perfect but I do apologize if I did push a few parents off this forum. for now on I'm trying to keep peace on both sides. I understand what it like to be a parents and how people jump in trying to tell me what I'm doing is wrong. I think you're doing a great job and you made that decision based on what you felt was right for your children. keep up the good work

THANK YOU, I also think I made the right decision for my children and when I made these decisions I was very aware that it might not have worked and I was prepared to make changes.
I am also more then open to thinking that not all deaf children need to be oral. It is a parents' decision and one that they should make being very informed.

 

[jillio]

Maybe it was resolved in your own little world but you forgot to tell everyone that you were right and we are all wrong.

You have no idea what you are talking about. If you had bothered to read through the progression of events, you would have discovered that we were all saying the same thing but confusion arised over the attributed meaning of one word. You obviously haven't bothered to read through completely, and neither are you privy to the pm's that transpired between members.

So, in this case, we were all right. Your nastiness in the above post, however, is completely wrong.Now, as Bear has cautioned, PLEASE back on tpoic.