Mother of 7 y/o Deaf girl

[deafdyke]

It is not the provider's choice, and there is no one "ideal". It is family choice. Profoundly deaf children can have as good access to spoken language as a child with a mild loss.

Yes but the provider can and does influence the "choice" with VERY ablelist "healthy normal" propaganda. I'm sure you know how to analyze biased language. Pro oral propaganda is FULL of it! There is NO WAY you can promote speech only in a neutral, non ableist way. Also screw family choice...WHAT ABOUT the child? Doesn't the child get a choice? Why should the child be DENIED this or that simply b/c it seems more "normal?" Also I hate saying this but oralists have been parroting that talking point for DECADES. There have ALWAYS been profoundly dhh kids who function as HOH. Problem is the world isn't a soundbooth and the hearing world isn't Grease or High School Musical. That is why even HOH kids can benifit from Sign and Deaf culture. How is a profoundly Deaf person supposed to handle dating? "Oh baby moan into my FM!"

 

[peekaboo]

I am so glad that I am NOT ALONE and that OTHERS see and feel what I SEE AND FEEL. THANK YOU!!!!!

 

[Teacherofthedeaf]

Started in 2005, up to age 5, next data point is age 9. I guess you've failed at math. 2005 + 9 = 2014. And today is 2018. Hmm

Did you look at the information that the study investigators have shared? I gave it to you several times.

 

[Teacherofthedeaf]

Hmm... well as a TINY data point... I was born profoundly deaf (with vision issues on top of that yay..?). I did not receive hearing aids until the age of 2 (oh no.. no language acquisition before then.. lagging already!), I was enrolled in some programs for the "hearing impaired"- I only remember 1 though- 1/2 day in kindergarten (don't remember that at all) and 1/2 day in the self contained class for the DHH oral kids (that I remember). My mother also did the Spencer Tracy correspondence course. Next was the local elementary school (all the neighborhood kids went there). I repeated kindergarten (I suspect mainly because of the age cut off dealie). Only deafblind kid in the entire school until my 6th grade year. No services other than speech therapy which actually cut into my academic time- must be why I suck at math... I did okay in general but still struggled a LOT. Transferred to private school after that through HS. Somewhat better. This school was...is one of the best schools in that area. I did well enough - B- ish average; entire class was under 100 students. But still.. still missed a LOT especially videos, filmstrips with audio, and tapes that we had to listen to for 'work stations'. One of the reasons why I took Latin was because both Spanish and French classes relied HEAVILY on audio & headphones (no thank you!). Socially I got along well with everyone but I wasn't exactly invited anywhere or belonged to any sort of 'clique' or group of friends. Went to Gallaudet- Did okay, can't say much for academics.. did well at times, lousy at others as I was busy finding my deaf identity and learning a whole new language at the same time.

Fast forward into the "real world" where 'deaf need to compete on the same level as hearing".. while yes I had the skills... I CAN tell you it still was not a very level playing field even with my 'stellar' transcript from both HS and Gallaudet. There is still bias, even for a person who speaks so well people will refuse to believe you are deaf and refuse to believe/understand that no- no I CANNOT understand every word you say (speech therapy wasn't THAT successful). I have all those skills mentioned above in TOD's post- yet I still struggle. Yes, I've been lucky enough to land some pretty great jobs but it comes at a cost. I had longer gaps than most hearing people in employment when between jobs. I have many friends who are on the wide spectrum of deafness from mild hearing loss to profound and solely ASL... the one with the mild hearing loss (I do not know if that person still signs or not)- has never been able to hold down a job for longer than a year- though to be fair there were other issues. A few who use ASL exclusively and may or may not have hearing aids have done very very well for themselves. Of course there are those who aren't doing well...

The thing is it feels like the above statement is so broad as to say yes we want these kids to be at this certain level but forgetting to say 'but it is also possible for ANY deaf kid to succeed and reach the very same level as the hearing kid regardless of WHAT mode of communication they use' I may have been successful in my life and 'successful' with "hearing and speaking" but that does not mean that I actually understand everything verbally/auditorily (yes I know that's not spelled right). A LOT of reading got me through - just about.


That's all it is "access". It does not mean that the access will give them understandable language or information. Case in point... As noted... my hearing/speech development was obviously stellar/top-notch whatever.. but a recent incident tells me otherwise. My first weekend in the "DevHouse" (the house I stayed in while I was studying in Utah), I met the other two housemates. One I could not understand at all because he slurred his words (I found out the next day why...dentures). The other person I could not understand either and when asked to repeat...he said..."NEVER MIND". Story of my life. Anyone new I meet I cannot hear clearly at all- maybe lucky once in a while. Even after 3 months there I still had a hard time understanding/hearing 90% of the class (but to be fair- one of my interpreters said half the class mumbled - it became a running joke).

Sorry this is long but the entire conversation in this tread drove me batty and I am sorry to rockymountainmama that quite a few people hijacked your thread though a few made very good points.

As noted... the above is from just ONE perspective but I can almost say for certain that many DHH people i know have had very similar experiences- majority mainstream/oral and some from deaf schools but I can say that (in my perspective) a large percentage of those who grew up with ASL were more confident of themselves. For sure there are oral/non signing individuals who are themselves strongly self confident but in my view I don't see as many.

*signing off*

(I may have a change of heart and delete this entire thing as people ARE going to have their own set view and will never budge from it).

I think your perspective is very important. It is horrible that you were never given the access to peers or to your education that you had a right to. Ever student with hearing loss, regardless of methodology has a legal right to access. It could be through a school placement that uses the language they use, through interpreters, or through technology such as an FM system. It is completely different for each student and sometimes even for the same student in different points in their life. I know many people who are successful using ASL, cued speech and listening and spoken language. It is all about access to language and to education.

 

[Teacherofthedeaf]

LoveBlue, oralists do this a LOT. They mistake "kid doesn't have SEVERE language issues" for "these kids aren't like the kids from the '70's who could only say "Deblee Deblah. Bedlah"...They hardly ever look at the whole picture. It's only speech

Only speech? Speech is the articulation of individual phonemes. That is the very least of most people's concern. I would hope what you mean to say is that professionals are worried about a child's achievement in audition, receptive and expressive vocabulary, and expressive and receptive connected language. At my school we test all of those things, every 6 months, to ensure that students are making appropriate progress. We also follow the Minnesota Social Skills Checklist https://successforkidswithhearinglo...dents-who-are-Deaf-Hard-of-Hearing-Chap-3.pdf , do academic testing (Woodcock Johnson Tests of Achievement), every six months as well. On a weekly basis we take a language sample and analyze it using the CASSLs to determine language levels and the next targets. What do you think that we are not considering that could be added to of battery?

 

[Teacherofthedeaf]

Yes but the provider can and does influence the "choice" with VERY ablelist "healthy normal" propaganda. I'm sure you know how to analyze biased language. Pro oral propaganda is FULL of it! There is NO WAY you can promote speech only in a neutral, non ableist way. Also screw family choice...WHAT ABOUT the child? Doesn't the child get a choice? Why should the child be DENIED this or that simply b/c it seems more "normal?" Also I hate saying this but oralists have been parroting that talking point for DECADES. There have ALWAYS been profoundly dhh kids who function as HOH. Problem is the world isn't a soundbooth and the hearing world isn't Grease or High School Musical. That is why even HOH kids can benifit from Sign and Deaf culture. How is a profoundly Deaf person supposed to handle dating? "Oh baby moan into my FM!"

How exactly is an infant supposed to make an informed decision? We empower parents to make all health and social decisions for their children. They decide the food they eat, the religion they practice, and yes, the language that they use. That is why children have parents. If you believe that you know what is best for a child more than their loving parents, we truly have nothing left to talk about.

 

[Lysander]

How exactly is an infant supposed to make an informed decision? We empower parents to make all health and social decisions for their children. They decide the food they eat, the religion they practice, and yes, the language that they use. That is why children have parents. If you believe that you know what is best for a child more than their loving parents, we truly have nothing left to talk about.

Do you honestly believe that a parent is going to make the decision that is the best for the child? They aren't going to. They're emotional, they have a deaf baby, they're scared and confused and being bombarded by everyone else's opinion on what they should be doing with their child. And someone is going to present them with an option that makes their child appear the most "normal." The choice that makes the child the most like them. They're going to go for it every time. At what point does a professional step in and say, "Hey, this method isn't working for your child." Is someone going to say to that parent. "My method isn't working. I was wrong. We need to change to something they can actually use." I doubt it. Because that would take a level of humility that rarely humans possess.

I'm sorry, but a loving parent is not always the best person to make those decisions. Ask all the angry Deaf adults who were raised as oral children and denied access to language because another adult in authority told them their child would grow up best with an oral approach.

 

[peekaboo]

Do you honestly believe that a parent is going to make the decision that is the best for the child? They aren't going to. They're emotional, they have a deaf baby, they're scared and confused and being bombarded by everyone else's opinion on what they should be doing with their child. And someone is going to present them with an option that makes their child appear the most "normal." The choice that makes the child the most like them. They're going to go for it every time. At what point does a professional step in and say, "Hey, this method isn't working for your child." Is someone going to say to that parent. "My method isn't working. I was wrong. We need to change to something they can actually use." I doubt it. Because that would take a level of humility that rarely humans possess.

I'm sorry, but a loving parent is not always the best person to make those decisions. Ask all the angry Deaf adults who were raised as oral children and denied access to language because another adult in authority told them their child would grow up best with an oral approach.

couldn't have said it better my friend!!!!!!!!! right on!

 

[Jane B.]

If not the parents, who should make the choice for the infant and toddler and maybe even into elementary age?

 

[LoveBlue]

If not the parents, who should make the choice for the infant and toddler and maybe even into elementary age?

What they're saying is that the parent gets bad info from the "professionals". They should be told about ALL means of communications and tell the parents the child can use more than one. I feel it's important to stress that a visual language is best for a deaf child so they should choose one, preferably the sign language of their location (ASL for us in the USA).

 

[peekaboo]

What they're saying is that the parent gets bad info from the "professionals". They should be told about ALL means of communications and tell the parents the child can use more than one. I feel it's important to stress that a visual language is best for a deaf child so they should choose one, preferably the sign language of their location (ASL for us in the USA).

Exactly ... a deaf child nor a HOH child is not going to hear like a hearing person, aint gonna happen in this lifetime. they may have sound speech and may say a few words they can pronounce, but at the end of the day, they are still deaf/hoh. REGARDLESS! "Being able to hear or read at a hearing level" does not change a deaf or a hoh perspective as a whole in the outside world. We deal with the outside in our own way, we manage this far, we can manage another century without cued speech, HA's, CI's, and so forth. We are doing just fine. Thank you

 

[Teacherofthedeaf]

Do you honestly believe that a parent is going to make the decision that is the best for the child? They aren't going to. They're emotional, they have a deaf baby, they're scared and confused and being bombarded by everyone else's opinion on what they should be doing with their child. And someone is going to present them with an option that makes their child appear the most "normal." The choice that makes the child the most like them. They're going to go for it every time. At what point does a professional step in and say, "Hey, this method isn't working for your child." Is someone going to say to that parent. "My method isn't working. I was wrong. We need to change to something they can actually use." I doubt it. Because that would take a level of humility that rarely humans possess.

I'm sorry, but a loving parent is not always the best person to make those decisions. Ask all the angry Deaf adults who were raised as oral children and denied access to language because another adult in authority told them their child would grow up best with an oral approach.

No, I believe in parents more than that. I believe fundamentally that parents love and know their child better than any stranger ever could. Parents are completely invested. They will be there long after professionals are gone. They have a huge responsibility, but they have nothing but the best interests of their child at heart.

 

[Teacherofthedeaf]

What they're saying is that the parent gets bad info from the "professionals". They should be told about ALL means of communications and tell the parents the child can use more than one. I feel it's important to stress that a visual language is best for a deaf child so they should choose one, preferably the sign language of their location (ASL for us in the USA).

I cannot speak for other people, but I can tell you that it is absolutely my job to ensure that parents have good, unbiased information so that they can make an appropriate decision.

 

[Beowulf]

No, I believe in parents more than that. I believe fundamentally that parents love and know their child better than any stranger ever could. Parents are completely invested. They will be there long after professionals are gone. They have a huge responsibility, but they have nothing but the best interests of their child at heart.

Unfortunately there is no study on how many parents suffer guilt the rest of THEIR lives from their decisions.

 

[LoveBlue]

I cannot speak for other people, but I can tell you that it is absolutely my job to ensure that parents have good, unbiased information so that they can make an appropriate decision.

I'd like to see a list of your unbiased information. Also, what age are the children when you first meet the parents?

 

[Teacherofthedeaf]

I'd like to see a list of your unbiased information. Also, what age are the children when you first meet the parents?

I have met families within weeks of their diagnosis. I have several resources that I like to share including: http://ncbegin.org/reference-chart/ and https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/osers/products/opening_doors/opening_doors.pdf and http://www.raisingdeafkids.org/meet/parents/communicating.php

 

[deafdyke]

Only speech? Speech is the articulation of individual phonemes. That is the very least of most people's concern. I would hope what you mean to say is that professionals are worried about a child's achievement in audition, receptive and expressive vocabulary, and expressive and receptive connected language. At my school we test all of those things, every 6 months, to ensure that students are making appropriate progress. We also follow the Minnesota Social Skills Checklist https://successforkidswithhearinglo...dents-who-are-Deaf-Hard-of-Hearing-Chap-3.pdf , do academic testing (Woodcock Johnson Tests of Achievement), every six months as well. On a weekly basis we take a language sample and analyze it using the CASSLs to determine language levels and the next targets. What do you think that we are not considering that could be added to of battery?

Speech as in spoken language. They are CONVINCED that spoken language is the ONLY piece of the puzzle that is needed. They do NOT look at the WHOLE picture. Their entire fixtation is to try to get the kid as functioning just like a hearing (read "normal") person as possible

 

[deafdyke]

How exactly is an infant supposed to make an informed decision? We empower parents to make all health and social decisions for their children. They decide the food they eat, the religion they practice, and yes, the language that they use. That is why children have parents. If you believe that you know what is best for a child more than their loving parents, we truly have nothing left to talk about.

By allowing a CHOICE of both speech and Sign! Why is that such a hard concept?!?! You don't know which will be useful until you TRY it. Parents need to meet their kid halfway. It's perfectly OK for a parent for a parent to decide on speech, but if they do, then they need to meet the child halfway and give their kid sign. It's only fair. It's giving the child ALL the pieces of the puzzle. Most of the time when parents chose a speech exclusive approach, they are doing so based on BIASED and ableist info. Denying a child a piece of the puzzle based on ableist ideology is like denying a blind/low vision kid Braille, intense blindskills etc, or denying a physically disabled kid use of a walker or a wheelchair. Why would you ACTIVELY deny a child a piece of the puzzle that could be VERY helpful? It's about giving the CHILD choices and realizing there are MANY different pieces to the puzzle!

 

[deafdyke]

No, I believe in parents more than that. I believe fundamentally that parents love and know their child better than any stranger ever could. Parents are completely invested. They will be there long after professionals are gone. They have a huge responsibility, but they have nothing but the best interests of their child at heart.

But

If not the parents, who should make the choice for the infant and toddler and maybe even into elementary age?

By an unbiased "give the kid EVERYTHING" approach. Simple easy. The parental "choice" rhetoric is an INVENTED controversy. Give the kid EVERYTHING, so they can figure out what works best for the kid. With speech alone a kid could do fine, but with ASL added, they could do EVEN better! There's many different pieces to the puzzle!

 

[deafdyke]

I cannot speak for other people, but I can tell you that it is absolutely my job to ensure that parents have good, unbiased information so that they can make an appropriate decision.

As in ableist "healthy normal" propaganda from AG Bell?