LGBT Discrimination in Arizona

[Reba]

When was marriage created? I'm trying to grasp religious peoples argument that it's not marriage. I do not follow the bible or any other religion I'm straight myself, and only view the word Marry as one unit Sorry but the word marry also means

I'm taking a chance replying because we're not supposed to discuss "religion" at AD. But since you asked, God created the marriage relationship with Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden.

 

[Steinhauer]

Bold, not anymore, it is part of government sanctioned.

Marriage existed before government. It is ancient. And yes, the government denies marriage to groups other than homosexuals. Is the government being unfair to them too?

Think about it.

While you are thinking about it, why would you support the government's intervention into the realm of religion? I thought you were a Libertarian? Or do you support the Government legislating religion and morality?

 

[Reba]

What about Christians support gay marriage?

What about them? People have freewill to make their own choices, right or wrong.

Majority of LGBT are Christians.

They are? Where did you get that statistic?

 

[Reba]

Bold, not anymore, it is part of government sanctioned.

That doesn't mean it's no longer a part of religions. Just because the government got itself involved doesn't mean it's been taken out of religious beliefs.

 

[Foxrac]

What about them? People have freewill to make their own choices, right or wrong.


They are? Where did you get that statistic?

First paragraph, I asked question to Steinhauer because he didn't address about Christians who support gay marriage.

Second paragraph - Religious Views Among Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender People Revealed In New Survey

Remember, that's survey and it doesn't represent all gay and lesbian over US and margin of error can be very greatly. Based on my experience, most gay and lesbian in my state are Christian. If they count most gay and lesbian from southern state, so percent of Christianity will be much higher.

 

[Foxrac]

Marriage existed before government. It is ancient. And yes, the government denies marriage to groups other than homosexuals. Is the government being unfair to them too?

Think about it.

While you are thinking about it, why would you support the government's intervention into the realm of religion? I thought you were a Libertarian? Or do you support the Government legislating religion and morality?

I support either government sanctioned marriage or privatizing marriage.

I don't think that privatizing marriage will happen anytime because of complication with tax, unless IRS remove jointly couple from tax bracket to treat all Americans as individual.

Some of laws are influenced by religion, especially marriage between one man and one woman.

 

[Foxrac]

That doesn't mean it's no longer a part of religions. Just because the government got itself involved doesn't mean it's been taken out of religious beliefs.

Atheist couples already married in the court or non-religious property.

Religion isn't matter to government sanctioned marriage.

 

[Reba]

First paragraph, I asked question to Steinhauer because he didn't address about Christians who support gay marriage.

Second paragraph - Religious Views Among Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender People Revealed In New Survey

Remember, that's survey and it doesn't represent all gay and lesbian over US and margin of error can be very greatly. Based on my experience, most gay and lesbian in my state are Christian. If they count most gay and lesbian from southern state, so percent of Christianity will be much higher.

Thank you for the link.

Somewhat misleading. 42% is not "most" and is a lot less than 73%.

Aside--I wonder why the survey divided Christians into races? Those aren't religions.

 

[Foxrac]

Thank you for the link.

Somewhat misleading. 42% is not "most" and is a lot less than 73%.

Aside--I wonder why the survey divided Christians into races? Those aren't religions.

because white Christians and black/hispanic Christians are different like white church and black church.

 

[Jiro]

Here is the crux ... or at least, my interpretation (and btw, Foxrac is correct, a business can already refuse service).

If I go into a Hindu restaurant and order a beef steak, they will likely not have that item on their menu, as it is against their religious beliefs and is not condoned by their sacred Vedic texts (or, Vedas). The cow is sacred to them.

Do I have the right to take issue with their religious beliefs, and force them to put beef cattle on their menus? After all, I am the customer and they should accommodate me. Can I essentially "lynch" their business by suing them, since they serve the public, and I am being denied something as a result of their religion?

Of course they don't serve beef cattle to ANY customer, but the reason they do this is because of their religious faith and the instructions for them in Vedic Texts. Those Vedic texts do not apply to me, as I am not a Hindu - so do I have a case?

You know, it wasn't too long ago that Jews were publicly ridiculed for their faith and hauled off to gas chambers.

Religious liberty is important. People have already declared war on religion and it always ends up with disastrous results.

eh? you're pulling that broken card again?

if it ain't in the menu.. then they don't serve it. you cannot force a restaurant to provide something that they don't make. your argument is invalid and a red herring - as usual.

since a bakery shop makes a wedding cake... then it's fine for customer to ask them to bake a wedding cake with 2 grooms on top. a customer wasn't asking a baker to make an bbq meal. however if a baker felt offended by gay marriage... then he is free to refuse a service - assuming that he chose his words carefully.

 

[VacationGuy234]

Time to open the religious section again. And, maybe political section as well???

 

[Foxrac]

Here is the crux ... or at least, my interpretation (and btw, Foxrac is correct, a business can already refuse service).

If I go into a Hindu restaurant and order a beef steak, they will likely not have that item on their menu, as it is against their religious beliefs and is not condoned by their sacred Vedic texts (or, Vedas). The cow is sacred to them.

Do I have the right to take issue with their religious beliefs, and force them to put beef cattle on their menus? After all, I am the customer and they should accommodate me. Can I essentially "lynch" their business by suing them, since they serve the public, and I am being denied something as a result of their religion?

Of course they don't serve beef cattle to ANY customer, but the reason they do this is because of their religious faith and the instructions for them in Vedic Texts. Those Vedic texts do not apply to me, as I am not a Hindu - so do I have a case?

You know, it wasn't too long ago that Jews were publicly ridiculed for their faith and hauled off to gas chambers.

Religious liberty is important. People have already declared war on religion and it always ends up with disastrous results.

Hindu? Indian cuisine doesn't use beef.

Jews and Muslim can't consume pork too.

 

[goodonya]

We are talking about law here. These legislators that are busy creating a never ending pile of new laws give me a giant pain. Still it is built into how our country is designed. We squabble. We test the system constantly. We create and abide by new law.

It has been a long road here for everyone who was not an English speaking Christian or Deist male of English descent. They designed the Constitution and went about the business of running a country with English Law to suit themselves.
Discrimination is covered by Civil Law. Civil law is a constantly changing thing. Every judge along the way gets to make decisions based on their interpretation of Civil English Law and preceding cases dealing with the same situation. Often they make new law according to who they are related to or who polishes their knob at the party. People then spend all the money they have trying to get a genuine legal decision from a higher court or pass new law by way of legislation.

No matter how the Christian churches may try this country has a legal system that is not Biblical Law. That is the way it is and has been from day one USA.

 

[Mewtilation]

I support everyone being able to make their own decisions of likes, dislikes, hates or love. I do not discriminate. I personally, am Catholic. My family is from Romania, and that's what 99.9% of people over there are raised as. I don't EVER throw my religion in peoples faces, how many of you knew I was Catholic, NONE. I don't use it as an argument or a backbone or a crutch... I don't use it as an EXCUSE.

We are ALL people. Underneath it all, we're all the same. Our skin color, our sexual preferences, our likes, dislikes, whatever... we're all the same underneath it all... I donate blood once every 2 months, you going to deny your child my blood because I'm a lesbian? I'm O Negative CMV Negative... I can donate to ANYONE including infants...I have an incredibly rare and desirable blood type used in emergency situations... going to deny your son or daughter my blood because I'm gay? No? Yes? Really, because it's all the same... all of us underneath are the same.

I'm tired of people using their religion as a crutch to support their right to be bigots. You can't just pick and choose what YOU want to believe out of the bible. Oh, so you can go against the bible and wear mixed fabrics, shave your beard, eat seafood, play football or watch it ( don't eat or touch their carcasses ), Pulling out for males during sex, tattoos, Not letting cancer victims that have had their testicles removed to pray, Women wearing gold ( Oh I'm in deep shiz here! ) Eating / drinking blood ( Better have your steaks well done my friends! ) Leave your heads covered, don't wear torn clothing, Don't cut your hair! , No growing plants ( food ) together in the same place can't mingle seed!, No mixing animal breeds either, no cokerpoos for you!, No touching anything unclean like carcasses or anything like that!, No talking to your wife or allowing her in church while she's riding the cotton camel ( on her period ) and two weeks after bearing a child, she's unclean stay away!!!, No drinking alcohol in Church guys, so the "body of Christ with the blood ( wine) You're SOL!, and lordy forbid you've ever worked on a Sunday, DEATH TO YOU!!!

I have read that thing as a punishment from my father ( I was in trouble a lot ) having to read and write it over 6 or 7 times through my childhood for various things I did to be in trouble, do NOT start me on what is in that outdated thing. If either one of you doesn't do ANY of that, THEN you can tell me gays have no right to be married. Until you're perfect and follow all that BS, STFU and get over yourselves. I'll guarantee everyone has done stuff I've listed more than once in their lives. You can't pick and choose what you want to believe and use as an argument from the bible unless you are willing to follow ALL OF IT.... You fail, your argument is invalid... next please.

As for me, I'm going to get a shrimp cocktail and wash it down with some JD! SIN SIN SIN SIN SIN SIN SIN SIN SIN!! OH LORDY What will I do!?!??

Can't say times have changed, because if you do you can agree times have changed for gays too.... LUL!

I'm done, you're arguments are invalid, as I said. Learn to use something else to go against gay rights and stop using the ONLY argument as your RELIGION! That's the only thing you've got? Gays have TONS of reasons we should be able to be married, and you have ONE? ONE? Really.... :roll: It's against my beliefs, then DON'T GAY MARRY! You CAN'T FORCE YOUR BELIEFS ON ANYONE ELSE SO DEAL WITH IT! Not everyone believes the same THING! Keep your families from doing it, whatever... but you can't force people who don't believe in it to do it TOO!!! Not everyone believes what you believe, NOR can you make them! STAP IT THAT'S WHY PEOPLE GO SO HARDCORE AGAINST YOUR RELIGION THESE DAYS! YOU'RE GIVING IT A BAD NAME!!! How about doing something the bible says, and don't judge and love everyone... How about taking those words of advice... Good lord... If you're going to preach I'm doing it because my beliefs, then you better stop picking and choosing which ones to follow and start following them ALL. When you do that, come back to me and I'll completely support your decision to hate the fact I'm a lesbo and will be married to another woman one day.

 

[Jiro]

Marriage existed before government. It is ancient. And yes, the government denies marriage to groups other than homosexuals. Is the government being unfair to them too?

Think about it.

While you are thinking about it, why would you support the government's intervention into the realm of religion? I thought you were a Libertarian? Or do you support the Government legislating religion and morality?

do you support religion legislating this country and government?

 

[Steinhauer]

eh? you're pulling that broken card again?

if it ain't in the menu.. then they don't serve it. you cannot force a restaurant to provide something that they don't make. your argument is invalid and a red herring - as usual.

since a bakery shop makes a wedding cake... then it's fine for customer to ask them to bake a wedding cake with 2 grooms on top. a customer wasn't asking a baker to make an bbq meal. however if a baker felt offended by gay marriage... then he is free to refuse a service - assuming that he chose his words carefully.

it isn't a red herring at all - it is the crux of the matter that you are shying away from.

remember your comment that I should live on a compound somewhere? talk about choosing your words carefully ...

Should the Jews in Europe during WWII have lived in compounds? Someone certainly thought so ...

 

[Mewtilation]

Choosing something that isn't offered at a restaurant is completely different than equality and gay rights... It has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. :roll:

 

[Foxrac]

it isn't a red herring at all - it is the crux of the matter that you are shying away from.

remember your comment that I should live on a compound somewhere? talk about choosing your words carefully ...

Should the Jews in Europe during WWII have lived in compounds? Someone certainly thought so ...

Again, your statement is irrelevant.

This thread isn't about Jews in Europe during WWII so sticking with topic about LGBT discrimination in Arizona.

 

[Foxrac]

Choosing something that isn't offered at a restaurant is completely different than equality and gay rights... It has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. :roll:

I was RME at him when he hijacked this thread. :roll:

 

[Jiro]

it isn't a red herring at all - it is the crux of the matter that you are shying away from.

remember your comment that I should live on a compound somewhere? talk about choosing your words carefully ...

Should the Jews in Europe during WWII have lived in compounds? Someone certainly thought so ...

um.... Godwin's Rule really? another red herring....

the difference is... you are free to establish a compound with your own set of rules and declare it as a religious property... like a church and Amish community.

again - when you set up a shop in a public property, it is expected for you to encounter all kinds of people. if you are having trouble coping with that - then perhaps it is best for you to establish a compound where you can live in peace to be serving your own kinds of people all the time.

again - you can refuse a service but you cannot explain why because that would be illegal. this is no difference with an employer interviewing a candidate - are you deaf? what country are you from? what is your religion? these questions are illegal.

"you are fired because you're deaf and you can't hear us. you are fired because you're Jewish and you couldn't work on Saturday." these statements are illegal.

again - the government is not forcing them to serve any kinds of people but it is illegal to discriminate people. a big difference.