Herbivore/Carnivore/Omnivore Comparisons

Doug5 said:
In nature, animals kill one another in horrible ways to survive, and they prey upon the weak, young, sick, and old. Its the way of things. Theres no pleasant way to die.
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Other species, they kill only to eat or to defend themselves. Humans, despite having greater intelligence and capacity for kindness and compassion, are far more cruel towards other species. Look at factory farming, zoos, circuses, marine worlds, etc etc. No other species do that. They don't enforce prolonged torture and cruelty on other species for pleasure and/or profit.
 
DeafCaroline said:
Doug, I was a bodybuilder. A vegan, by definition, eat no animal products at all and it's a huge myth that you would lose your muscle if you don't eat animal protein. If this bodybuilder you're talking about is eating eggs and protein powder, he's NOT a vegan.

Some of the top performing athletes in the world are vegans. Here's a link to some of them. Those athletes (bodybuilders, weightlifters, marathon runners, so on prove that people's assumption that veganism cost you muscles is a myth and a false uneducated assumption. Some of those athletes set world records.

Vegan athletes

Here's a video showing some vegan athletes.

Famous Vegetarian and Vegan Bodybuilders, Athletes, Sportmen and Sportwomen - YouTube
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Then how did they build muscles if they are vegan?
 
sheila022 said:
Then how did they build muscles if they are vegan?
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I believe you have to eat a large range of fruits and vegetables in order to make up for not eating meat. Not to mention that the habits of exercising are somewhat different since vegans and meat eaters both react differently. It's not impossible, but it is doable.
 
sheila022 said:
Then how did they build muscles if they are vegan?
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Vegetables have protein too.

One of the biggest misconceptions is that you need to eat a lot of protein to put on a lot of muscles. If that were true, then why aren't bodybuilders who eat more animal proteins than others putting on even more muscles?

Or even just regular people - I know some guys who eat a ton of animal protein and they don't appear to be very muscular at all. I have a friend who drinks protein shakes but doesn't work out - she's flabby despite consuming a lot of animal protein.

So the link between the more animal protein you eat, the more muscles you get is misleading.

When I was bodybuilding, I knew a few bodybuilders and we would always discuss our diets because it's paramount in the bodybuilding world. I would look at the physique of a vegetarian bodybuilder and the physique of a meat eater - visibly, there's no difference. None.

It's total calories that makes the difference in building muscles, not protein. And nutrition coaches of say olympic athletes - they put a lot more focus on carbs than protein. Carbs is what gives you energy, carbs is what delivers protein to the muscles. When bodybuilders start getting ready for a competition, they start eliminating carbs from their diet in order to get more lean but they also lose a bit of muscles too. So, what they would do is eat as much as possible - the term for this is carb-loading - they eat and eat and eat to put on as much muscles as possible to offset any muscle loss when they start cutting out carbs pre-competition. This proves carbs is what's more important for muscle building and more essential to preventing muscle loss, not protein.

That's not to say protein is not essential for building lean muscles. It is but not in great quantities. You would not put on more muscles if you had a huge steak instead of one egg. your body can only utilize so much protein from a meal. the rest is either burned off or stored as fat depending on how fit you are.

A human only needs about 0.7 grams of protein per body pound to put on muscles. that means if you are 150 lbs, in order to gain more muscles than you have, you would need about 105 grams of protein a day.

Here are some facts: Lentils, beans and peas are loaded with protein. Almonds and pistachios have 7 grams of protein per serving (1/4 cup) and both pumpkin and hemp seeds have 11 grams per serving. One potato has 3 grams of protein, 2 cups of yams have about 5 grams of protein People usually only count protein grams from animal sources but this is a huge mistake. Vegetables have protein, brown rice has protein and even your morning bowl of oatmeal has 10 grams per cup.

So, as long as a vegan eats a well rounded diet containing the above, they will have no problems putting on muscle mass.
 
Im still skeptical. You cant believe everything athletes say. A lot of are on performance enhancing drugs and lie about what they do to get an edge.

I looked at Mac Danzig diet and it doesnt look all that appetizing
 
Really interesting original post Deaf Caroline. Kind of makes you think...
 
Doug5 said:
Im still skeptical. You cant believe everything athletes say. A lot of are on performance enhancing drugs and lie about what they do to get an edge.

I looked at Mac Danzig diet and it doesnt look all that appetizing
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if you look at bodybuilders' diets in general - both meat eaters and vegans, it's not that interesting - they focus very much on "clean eating" which means no frills. It's just plain protein, complex carbs and healthy fats.

When I was a bodybuilder - my breakfast was literally this: 1/3 cup oatmeal, 3 egg whites, 1/3 cottage cheese, blend it all together and cook it as a pancake, no butter or oil on nonstick pan.

Or it would be one hardboiled egg, one slice of whole grain bread and half a grapefruit.

lunch would be a pork chop, 1/3 cup chickpeas with 1 tablespoon of olive oil and 2 cups steam broccoli.

Snack would be an apple and 1/3 cup nuts.

Supper would be grilled fish, 1/3 cup brown rice and 2 cups vegetables (steamed, boiled or grilled, never fried or buttered).

Dessert would be a protein bar or if i wanted to indulge - a protein shake with a extra dollop of cashew butter and half an avocado.

Bodybuilders' diets are plain, period.


There are two categories in bodybuilding: natural and non-natural.

Natural bodybuilders don't take steroids or performance enhancing drugs. Those humongous bodybuilders you see in worldwide competitons - they take steroids. It's nothing to do with how much animal protein they ate. They don't lie about it at all.

urine tests are not mandatory in standard bodybuilding competitions but absolutely mandatory in natural bodybuilding competitions and there are plenty of bodybuilders who take performance-enhancing drugs and steroids. then give someone else's urine sample to win entry into natural bodybuilding contests because they are idiots with low self-esteems.
 
DeafCaroline said:
You're correct in that humans don't descend from neanderthals. Apparently all humans excepting those in Africa share 4% of the genomes with neanderthals which leads to a theory that at some point after humans migrated from africa to the mideast, there were some sexual relations between humans and neanderthals so technically the neanderthals didn't go extinct :) they still live on in european and asian genes.

There's a big difference between being anatomically designed to eat meat and adopting an omnivore diet whether our bodies are designed to eat it or not.
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Where are you getting those figures? I just recently watched a fascinating show on PBS about the encounter between the Neanderthals and the Cro-Magnons, and the conclusion was that while there may have been some inter-breeding, it was very, very little, and today's humans have virtually no measurable inheritance from Neanderthal ancestry.

Early humans clearly were omnivores. They would have died out otherwise. They survived on fruits, plants, nuts, AND fish and animals, eating what they could in different seasons and according to the different climates. We are rather wonderfully fitted to be able to survive on all sorts of diets, from completely vegan to very meat-intensive.

Not saying that all sorts of diets are equally *healthy* for us, but from an evolutionary standpoint, we just have to live long enough to reproduce and get those children to an age where they can fend for themselves. Either meat-eating or non-meat eating diets will get us there.
 
DeafCaroline said:
Vegan although I do eat organic free range meat once in a blue moon. Been a vegan for over a year now.
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Can you give us a glimpse of your meals on a typical day?

I'm trying to incorporate more vegetarian meals in my diet. Wouldn't mind a few vegan meals too. In fact, I am going to go to EarthFare this weekend (wonderful organic supermarket), so maybe your tips will dictate what I will eat next week! :)
 
For breakfast, I would have granola and almond milk and some fruit. Or just even eat granola by the handful. or I would have bread with peanut butter or my personal preference, almond or cashew butter with some jam. Or I might make a hot bowl of kasha and add some fruit and honey.

Lunch varies - I like pita bread stuffed with falafel, and various vegetable toppings like alfalfa sprouts, kraut, lettuce, tomatoes, topped with homemade salad dressing (olive oil, vinegar, salt and pepper). for a tangy bite, i would spread on coriander paste (you can get it from an Indian store) much like one would spread butter. Lunch could also just be left over supper from the night before.

Snacks are fruits, veggies, nuts. or whole grain bread with cashew butter and jam.

Supper would be almost like any regular supper but without meat in it. Like vegetarian chili, vegetarian lasagna, lentil soup or whatever. I use beans and lentils as a substitute for meat.

Because a vegan diet tends to be far lower in total calorie count than a meat eater's diet, I really up my fats like olive oil, avocadoes, nuts, cashew butter etc to make sure I am not too low in caloric intake.

I don't like tofu so it's very rare I eat it.
 
Beach girl said:
Where are you getting those figures? I just recently watched a fascinating show on PBS about the encounter between the Neanderthals and the Cro-Magnons, and the conclusion was that while there may have been some inter-breeding, it was very, very little, and today's humans have virtually no measurable inheritance from Neanderthal ancestry.

Early humans clearly were omnivores. They would have died out otherwise. They survived on fruits, plants, nuts, AND fish and animals, eating what they could in different seasons and according to the different climates. We are rather wonderfully fitted to be able to survive on all sorts of diets, from completely vegan to very meat-intensive.

Not saying that all sorts of diets are equally *healthy* for us, but from an evolutionary standpoint, we just have to live long enough to reproduce and get those children to an age where they can fend for themselves. Either meat-eating or non-meat eating diets will get us there.
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google is a useful tool: Neanderthals, Humans Interbred, DNA Proves

if you google these words terms : humans neanderthals genomes, many scientific articles will pop up.


you're right in that some humans would have died out from not eating animal proteins in regions where access to vegetables and legumes is not accessible all year round but it's not accurate to say ALL of them would have died out. Dental records and stool (poop) studies reveal they ate primarily vegetables and would tend to eat meat more often during very cold seasons. Even the earliest humans had learned to store grains and beans for cold seasons because one is not always successful in hunting an animal. They would have been far more likely to die out if they didn't have access to vegetables, grains and legumes.

People who subsisted on very meat-heavy diets were more likely to die younger and be more susceptible to illnesses. Scurvy would be one example.

You're right, human adaptibility in itself, is a very remarkable thing.
 
Doug5 said:
Im still skeptical. You cant believe everything athletes say. A lot of are on performance enhancing drugs and lie about what they do to get an edge.

I looked at Mac Danzig diet and it doesnt look all that appetizing
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I strive to stay within a blend of the two and it has worked for me. Never have been overweight, or need extreme exercise to stay in shape, and other random stuff.

A part of why this works could have to do along the lines with the theory of heterozygote advantage, which encompasses an idea that, for example, someone being 'ambidextrous' will be more successful and adaptable than someone who is only left or right handed, in the event one feature is lost, they have lost nothing. While specializing in one thing can make you extremely versatile in it, but you can be easily overtaken in some areas because your body has became too specialized in that sector, losing the rest. This example is constantly reproduced in species of animals that have died out due to problems in their source of food.

This kind of belief sort of works in the real life and applicable for many comparisons too - from successful businesses, to drinking too much water or too little water. Moderation is the key, a general lesson for common sense in life. Some people tend to forget that.
 
naisho said:
I strive to stay within a blend of the two and it has worked for me. Never have been overweight, or need extreme exercise to stay in shape, and other random stuff.

A part of why this works could have to do along the lines with the theory of heterozygote advantage, which encompasses that, for example, being 'ambidextrous' leads to stronger desirable traits, and ability to be successful in the event one feature is lost, while specializing in one thing can make you good at it, but you can be easily overtaken in some areas because you are too specialized in that sector. This kind of belief sort of works in the real life and applicable for many comparisons too - from businesses, to drinking too much water or too little water. Moderation is the key, a general lesson for common sense in life. Some people tend to forget that.
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Keeping things in balance is always a good thing! That's why the most successful diets are ones with balanced meals in them. :)
 
Beach girl said:
Not saying that all sorts of diets are equally *healthy* for us, but from an evolutionary standpoint, we just have to live long enough to reproduce and get those children to an age where they can fend for themselves. Either meat-eating or non-meat eating diets will get us there.
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This kind of reminds me of why certain animals are successful in adapting to our world. Possums, rats, raccoons, think of more critters like these and it is easy to realize how they are spreading so easily across cities and countries. They can eat anything and everything, a part of why they're so successful in propagating and continuing their species.
 
i am not good at eating a proper amount of food or healthy food. =X i do eat junk food. when i m reading all of your posts. I feel guilty yet i still eat junk food. I am addicted to the nuts, fruits, and vegetable too. I eat everything whatever food is in front of me.
 
Frisky Feline said:
i am not good at eating a proper amount of food or healthy food. =X i do eat junk food. when i m reading all of your posts. I feel guilty yet i still eat junk food. I am addicted to the nuts, fruits, and vegetable too. I eat everything whatever food is in front of me.
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I think everyone should have a bit of junk food in their lives. :) My weakness is chocolate and hard candy (although after losing a big filling, i'm re-thinking those toffees and rock candies).
 
DeafCaroline said:
I think everyone should have a bit of junk food in their lives. :) My weakness is chocolate and hard candy (although after losing a big filling, i'm re-thinking those toffees and rock candies).
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LOL my biggest weakness is real chocolate with any nuts, ice cream and ice italian (lemon).

Nuts are my weak because i do not know how to stop it!
 
Wirelessly posted

what about whey protein powder for shake with almond/soy milk so its vegan friendly? I cant eat fish and beef so I'm missing the omega and one specific nutrition only beef have since 13 (10 years) so far I'm fine.
 
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