Grammar among Deaf People

[webArtist]

Meg,

in many ways "ed" and "ing" have a striking simular lip movement for those who depend in lipreading. I have a habit writing the way I speak ( which include spelling the way it sound even if it is wrong) Try talking to yourself in the mirror and you can see it "interested" "Ineresting".

which bring the other point of this post. I was raised as a english speaking and learned ASL in college. I grieved for the deaf who only language is ASL trying to get a job in the hearing world. I had two ASL deaf applied to place where i work and the hiring manager had alot of trouble communicating with them. the manager ask me to translate for him. Dont say do writing because that why i was called to help, they also wrote in ASL too. AS Much as I helped them, they did not get the job because communication was required with job

linneaelliott,
when you teach the deaf, explain why the english sign has value to their future life. the Hearing world outnumber the deaf 15 to 1 and you cant force the hearing to learn the deaf language and the deaf cant depend on someone interpeting for them every moment of their life. When you practice english sign, your grammer gets a little better and you have a better chance in getting that job down the road.

bill
webArtist

 

[Mizzou]

MEG - I understand what you mean on frist post. I been read and think what I could say because I use many different signs in other states. I would confuse you and all guys if I sign right. I always say wrong words or grammer then person would confuse with me for sure. I have to say it VERY CAREFUL so they would understand me better. In other words, My parents uses the basic words and signs as I could remember them than 12 level in grammer. I would not remember with 12 level so I still use basic and finding more words to fit the grammer to understandable and my signs, too. All of signs are almost SAME as 1 grade to 12 grade so it need make a define to the sentence. Deaf do their best and hearing do their best, too.

 

[Potman09]

ya, i had that grammar problem, but after i bought myself a grammar book, and self studied, i learned alot. everybody should try to buy a grammar book for emselve instead of any teacher blah-blah-blahing thru your bored brain 'cause its better that way.

 

[downing]

Yeah, I have noticed a lot people have grammar structure problems. My hubby is the one with the worst grammar I have ever seen in my entire life. He has problem with past and present tense and also with the verbs.

I have to help and correct him, he gets antsy sometimes but he knows that I try to help him. He grew up oral by his deaf institution at St. Joseph's, his school really emphasized on his oral skills than his grammar skills. I thought it was interesting.. since he learned how to sign in 1992 since his school prohibited him to sign.

He knows that I have better structure than him since I grew up with total communication. It takes many years to watch the grammar structure, read lots of books where you will learn the grammar structure on your own since a lot teachers out there in liberal arts have different opinions how grammar is structured...that is one bad thing about it. U gotta have to help some people even they may need it or won't like it.

 

[JessHercules]

Sorry Meg

Recently was talking with a friend about how we noticed that a lot of Deaf people have this similiar grammar confusion.

I dont know how to call this but am giving you an example.

He: Hey, I am interesting in you.
Me: You are interesting?
He: Yes, I am interesting.


(Translation: it means he is interested in me, not that he is bragging that he is interesting.)


He: Hey, Im boring.
Me: You are boring? *scratching my head, wondering if he means he is calling himself a boring person and putting himself down or if he meant that he is bored*
He: Yep, Im boring and there is nothing to do around here.


(Translation: it means he is bored and have nothing to do, but not calling himself boring)

Get the gist?

I just gave you two examples of this....does anyone know why a lot of Deaf people have problem with this? I used to get annoyed with this but realized that I cant judge these people harshly but at the same time, I wonder why this happens often as it can really create misunderstandings, etc.

Your 2 cents on this?

Here's my two cents.

I have been reading all of the posts all morning and I feel sorry for Meg because there were so many "off the point" comments, such as the German language, etc.

My whole family is Deaf, including myself. I have seen my parents type/write the way Meg demonstrated. My take on why deaf individuals write this way is because deaf students were taught to write "ed" for anything that happened in the past and "ing" for anything that is happening now. I assume that teachers of the deaf did not explain that there were other rules for those tenses, because they didn't know how.

 

[FutureGame2100]

I'm almost get a perfect sentence for my grammar. My grammar looks so good as not better. I'm kinda of good for do my ASL.

 

[JessHercules]

ASL isn't a natural language; it's a manmade language. There's no such thing as a natural language. .

Banjo, I'm sorry, but I have to correct you here. I've never seen anyone use the word "manmade" for any language, whatsoever. The word manmade is used for actual objects, such as a "manmade lake", etc.

Below is the definition of the word, manmade, from an online dictionary.

"Made by humans rather than occurring in nature; synthetic: man-made fibers; a manmade lake"

[/QUOTE = Banjo]English is my native language, not ASL. ASL can't be used to teach English due to the fact that they are two different languages. The best way to learn a language is to use the very language itself. There's no better substitute to it.[/QUOTE]

In regards to ASL as a natural language, I have taken numerous courses for Deaf Education with an emphasis in Bilingual-Bicultural Eduation; all of my professors and the books pertaining to ASL says, for a fact, that ASL is a natural language.

Natural language can be easily acquired or learned. I know you already mentioned a defintion from the dictionary in regards to the word natural, but there doesn't seem to be an appropriate defintion for this situation.

In my situation, ASL is my native language (meaning, my first language); I was fluent in ASL before I started school (mainstreamed). My brothers and I were able to learn the English language through reading and writing. Nobody can "acquire" a second language, they have to "learn" it. They have to be "trained" in a second language.

Now, Banjo, tell me, since my native language is ASL, how come I was able to learn English? Any bilingual educator knows that it's crucial to have a child come in with a strong first language base, whether it is ASL, Spanish, English, French, or whatever; then that child can learn a second language, practically to it's fullest.

I teach ASL classes at a local University. My students vary by interests, motivation, majors, as well as fluency in their first language, which is usually English. In my class, I require a few papers in regards to Deaf culture and so forth. I have seen some students' papers, which are quite awful in the English sense; the spelling and grammar errors take over the content of their papers. I am unable to completely read and focus on the content, without correcting their English errors. Those students who do not write "good" English are usually not very good ASL students.

I have many excellent paper writers, with the most beautiful choice of English words and the flow of their papers are absolutely wonderful; their ASL skills far exceeds the other students, which I mentioned in the previous paragraph.

This further proves the fact that a student must be fluent in one language before they can learn another.

Look through the attached website in regards to general bilingual education: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/JWCRAWFORD/biling.htm

 

[Joy]

hmm i think asl is a natural language then again i understand written asl better than signed asl (i m working on it lol) because i see it all the time

 

[ITPjohn]

hmm i think asl is a natural language then again i understand written asl better than signed asl (i m working on it lol) because i see it all the time

Is 'written asl' english in ASL order? I've heard the term 'gloss', but not 'written ASL'?

 

[Banjo]

Banjo, I'm sorry, but I have to correct you here. I've never seen anyone use the word "manmade" for any language, whatsoever. The word manmade is used for actual objects, such as a "manmade lake", etc.

Below is the definition of the word, manmade, from an online dictionary.

"Made by humans rather than occurring in nature; synthetic: man-made fibers; a manmade lake"

Made by humans rather than occurring in nature

ASL was made by humans. ASL didn't occur in nature. So, it's manmade. Sure it's spontaneous in some ways, but today, many signs are manmade in order to make it more refined.

 

[Banjo]

Now, Banjo, tell me, since my native language is ASL, how come I was able to learn English? Any bilingual educator knows that it's crucial to have a child come in with a strong first language base, whether it is ASL, Spanish, English, French, or whatever; then that child can learn a second language, practically to it's fullest.[/url]

You acquired your literacy skills by reading and writing just like you said. The majority of deaf children come from hearing families. Therefore, their parents are not fluent in ASL in most cases. Many parents find it difficult to learn ASL at a pace fast enough to make a decent progress in their children's language development.

I also learned English by reading and writing. Many deaf children aren't reading as much as they should be, and they also don't write too much either. They should be encouraged to, but they aren't.

 

[signer16]

I have just read all the posts and, although normally I wouldn't comment on one of these arguments, I want to say a few things.
First of all, JessHercules, great post (the most recent one)! It is sooooo true that if one does not have a strong base language, it is extremely difficult to learn a second language. My English skills are pretty good, and I think that these skills have helped me in learning Spanish and ASL. I think the main reason deaf people have trouble learning English is that, unless they have deaf parents, they grow up with no base language. By the time a child has reached the age of five, his/her language acquiring abilities are severely limited. Most deaf children don't have language exposure until they enter school, this totally destroys their chances of native fluency.
Banjo, you were looking for proof of the fact that deaf kids with deaf parents have better English than deaf kids with hearing parents, JessHercules's post should be proof in itself. Her grammar is the best I have seen from any deaf person on alldeaf. (I'm not saying this to offend anyone, I am just proving a point.)
Out of all my ASL teachers, the deaf teacher with the best English skills was a man who is fifth generation deaf. I know other deaf teachers who were raised orally, one even has great oral abilities, but her grammar is much worse.
On a tangent here, many deaf children who grow up isolated from other deaf people and develop their own language have a grammar structure very similar to that of ASL; some linguists are now theorizing that the grammar structure of ASL may be the way we think - before we convert our words into spoken language. ASL just may be a natural language.
If anyone ever has any English grammar questions, I am more than happy to help. I don't ever want to correct someone who doesn't want help; I am learning both Spanish and ASL, and I know how difficult it is to learn a 2nd language. I'm just saying that if anyone does want help with correct grammar and punctuation in an essay or anything else, I am good with that and enjoy doing it.
Meg, I hope I answered your original question from the original post with the ed/ing thing in saying that deaf people often don't have a base language. I can't imagine trying to learn an auditory-based language that I couldn't hear, with exceptions to nearly every grammatical rule it has, with or without a base language. I admire anyone who attempts to learn English; and I am just grateful that it is my native language so I don't have to work as hard at understanding it.

Good Night and Happy Easter!

 

[SpiceHD]

English was my first language even though i grew up profoundly deaf. Books became my friends when i was very young and i did not learn ASL till i was 15 years old. Even then... my english is pretty good (i hope) but i still mix things up... see i got past tense, present tense and future tense correct most of time.. its the other thing that got me confused like

"i cant play yesterday" or it is "i couldnt play yesterday" i alway mix those up

also for has, had, have, etc like that. I also have a bad habit of switching two words other way like hmm.. "daju vu" i never could spell that one correctly but i have all letters in there.

i also have a habit of run on sentences where i kinda put 3 sentences into one.

i do notice some deaf people do have more problems with those common mistakes. especially "ing"... it means present tense right? i think it is.

Also one more thing... some words have past tense in it but you could use present words in that sentence too which always throw me off. like

"I am interested in you" that means NOW
but...
"I was interested in you" does that means now too? or does that means i am not interested anymore? because i remember reading a book and they use similar phase with "was" in it and it meant present from the way it went.

when i talked to some hearing people and asked how they know so many rules to english they said "spoken english comes a lot easier cuz of how it sounds and naturally adjusting to people surround them" dunno if true

just my opinion and little experiences

 

[Serendipity]

I finally overcome with my struggles with verb tense. I think.

While that is a big problem among deaf writers, adverbs is the biggest problem in my opinion. I see a lot of deaf with adverb errors. To be honest, I know what it really mean and the purpose of adverb, but I can't laying down the facts because I am not that good in writing english.

 

[signer16]

English was my first language even though i grew up profoundly deaf. Books became my friends when i was very young and i did not learn ASL till i was 15 years old. Even then... my english is pretty good (i hope) but i still mix things up... see i got past tense, present tense and future tense correct most of time.. its the other thing that got me confused like

"i cant play yesterday" or it is "i couldnt play yesterday" i alway mix those up

In the past tense, if it already happened, you say, "I could/couldn't, would/ wouldn't ______"
If it is present or future it is "I can, can't"
However, if it is "shouldn't" in the past it is "I should/shouldn't have ____" in the past and future it is "I shouldn't ____"
English is strange, I don't understamd WHY we say things like we do, I just know what is right (usually due to the sound)

also for has, had, have, etc like that. I also have a bad habit of switching two words other way like hmm.. "daju vu" i never could spell that one correctly but i have all letters in there.

Generally speaking, it is I/you/we/they either have or had ________. He/she has ____.

i do notice some deaf people do have more problems with those common mistakes. especially "ing"... it means present tense right? i think it is.

Also one more thing... some words have past tense in it but you could use present words in that sentence too which always throw me off. like

"I am interested in you" that means NOW
but...
"I was interested in you" does that means now too? or does that means i am not interested anymore? because i remember reading a book and they use similar phase with "was" in it and it meant present from the way it went.

Again, generally speaking:

I am interesting/boring/lying/reading/writing/ etc. is referring to something about yourself. The -ing means doing a continuous action or being a continuous characteristic.

I am interested/bored/happy/sad etc. means it is a feeling, usually temporary.
It is similar to the "ser" y "estar" issue people have with spanish. If you would use "ser" in present you would use the "ing" ending. If you would use "estar" you would use the "-ed"ending.

I was interesting/bored/lying/reading/writing, etc. means that sometime BEFORE, you were one of these characteristic, or were doing one of the actions.

I was interested/bored/happy/sad, etc. means that you were before, but are not now. Again, there are always exceptions.
i.e. "I was shocked when she told me she was pregnant"
You could still be shocked, and she could still be pregnant. For that, it would depend on context, or more explanation; sometimes native speakers don't even know if the person is still feeling something, other than by tone of voice. JUSt notice that both things in the past tense STARTED in the past.
Oy, the complications of the English language.

when i talked to some hearing people and asked how they know so many rules to english they said "spoken english comes a lot easier cuz of how it sounds and naturally adjusting to people surround them" dunno if true

just my opinion and little experiences

Exactly! When you hear an auditory-based language, it makes it a lot easier.

 

[signer16]

I finally overcome with my struggles with verb tense. I think.

While that is a big problem among deaf writers, adverbs is the biggest problem in my opinion. I see a lot of deaf with adverb errors. To be honest, I know what it really mean and the purpose of adverb, but I can't laying down the facts because I am not that good in writing english.

I'm just curious, what specific adverb problems do you notice among deaf people?
This has been a very interesting thread because I am a senior in an all hearing school, and we are working on grammar. There are so many hearies who don't understand basic "subject/verb agreement," (They are/They is). A lot of times hearies know how to say it correctly, but they don't know why. I think this happens with many languages.
I'm just curious, why do you think that native speakers make different errors than people learning the same language as a foreign language? I know part of the problem comes from words that sound the same but look different, i.e there, their, they're, but other than that, I don't know.

 

[Serendipity]

I'm just curious, what specific adverb problems do you notice among deaf people?
This has been a very interesting thread because I am a senior in an all hearing school, and we are working on grammar. There are so many hearies who don't understand basic "subject/verb agreement," (They are/They is). A lot of times hearies know how to say it correctly, but they don't know why. I think this happens with many languages.
I'm just curious, why do you think that native speakers make different errors than people learning the same language as a foreign language? I know part of the problem comes from words that sound the same but look different, i.e there, their, they're, but other than that, I don't know.

For instance, I noticed they tend to do that kind of grammar:

It worked beautiful.

Actually, it is supposed to be, "It's working beautifully". That way it would sound better but I know most of times deaf people can not notice the difference but it's true. Verb tenses and adverbs mixed in one.

That is the best example I can think of right now.


I may add, hearies have problems with spelling and I wonder what it would be. I know K and C often misunderstood because they are similiar. What else?

 

[signer16]

For instance, I noticed they tend to do that kind of grammar:

It worked beautiful.

Actually, it is supposed to be, "It's working beautifully". That way it would sound better but I know most of times deaf people can not notice the difference but it's true. Verb tenses and adverbs mixed in one.

Yeah, I see what you mean with the adverbs thing, I realize that I do see it a lot, I just correct it automatically in my head, because the message is understood. Most adverbs, if they are only one word and not an adverbial phrase, do end in "-ly."
An adverb clarifies a verb, it adds more; it tells who, what, where, how, etc.
i.e. It works/worked or it's working (how?) beautifully.
He drives/drove (how?) slowly.

I may add, hearies have problems with spelling and I wonder what it would be. I know K and C often misunderstood because they are similiar. What else?

The C and K do get confused, because they sound the same. Also, the C and S, when the C makes the S sound. For the life of me, I have never been able to spell the word "necessary" correctly consistently. Also, when there are double letters people have issues. That's why people come up with little tricks. Two I have learned:

The desert vs. dessert problem.I only want to go to the desert ONCE, (one s) but I want TWO desserts (two s's).

Also, with tomorrow, I got it broken down into "Tom" "or" row" (Would I rather be with Tom or go rowing?)

There are also tons of pneumonics, but they are auditory cues on how to spell things or remember formulas, and aren't super helpful to those who can't hear :l.

Okay, ttyl, going to walk at the beach, beautiful day here in CA.

Kelsey

 

[SpiceHD]

In the past tense, if it already happened, you say, "I could/couldn't, would/ wouldn't ______"
If it is present or future it is "I can, can't"
However, if it is "shouldn't" in the past it is "I should/shouldn't have ____" in the past and future it is "I shouldn't ____"
English is strange, I don't understamd WHY we say things like we do, I just know what is right (usually due to the sound)



Generally speaking, it is I/you/we/they either have or had ________. He/she has ____.





Again, generally speaking:

I am interesting/boring/lying/reading/writing/ etc. is referring to something about yourself. The -ing means doing a continuous action or being a continuous characteristic.

I am interested/bored/happy/sad etc. means it is a feeling, usually temporary.
It is similar to the "ser" y "estar" issue people have with spanish. If you would use "ser" in present you would use the "ing" ending. If you would use "estar" you would use the "-ed"ending.

I was interesting/bored/lying/reading/writing, etc. means that sometime BEFORE, you were one of these characteristic, or were doing one of the actions.

I was interested/bored/happy/sad, etc. means that you were before, but are not now. Again, there are always exceptions.
i.e. "I was shocked when she told me she was pregnant"
You could still be shocked, and she could still be pregnant. For that, it would depend on context, or more explanation; sometimes native speakers don't even know if the person is still feeling something, other than by tone of voice. JUSt notice that both things in the past tense STARTED in the past.
Oy, the complications of the English language.



Exactly! When you hear an auditory-based language, it makes it a lot easier.

i do understand what u just explained... the real question is... can i make it into a habit? :-P LOL thats another thing that probably is a plm among deafies and hearies... is habit once u learned how to type/speak/write/sign it that way... it kinda sticks to u a bit hard lol

 

[VamPyroX]

I had this conversation with a few friends of mine. It seems that many of my friends who grew up using SEE or orally graduated from their high school at grade level and went straight to RIT. They were able to stay with the rest of the hearing kids because they spoke/signed full English in school and at home. Those who grew up using ASL graduated from their high school with a level between 3rd grade and 7th grade for Math and English. They said that it was the way their teachers and parents taught them. They had parents and teachers who signed only ASL and they were never oral. Some of my friends say that if they learned SEE until they entered high school, they would be graduating at grade level and move on through the world like the rest of the hearing people.