For those who want to practice Finger-spelling

Dr. Phil, if you want me to use fingerspelling to communicate with you when you don't have your CI on, I will. But I'm alot faster if I just type what I want to say.
 
I wasn't deaf 20 years ago just Hearing impaired at Profound level-85 decibels. I lost all hearing in Feb/92-Right ear. Still had my Phonak ll6 hearing aid in my left ear. Became Real/total deaf-left ear on Dec 20/06 All singles dances stopped at this point. After the Implant was activated in Aug/07 resumed the dances as an experiment. Seemed I helped myself re by hearing loud music and trying hear people speaking at the same time. Called "neural plasticity" of the brain. In the end fortunate-Implant worked!No- I am not considering disconnecting.
Today with the above situation probably would have had an Implant much earlier. The criteria has changed recently RE: having a profound loss and being deaf in the other ear for full OHIP funding of $55,000.00- which is the cost picked up 3 years ago on my behalf. Yeah I know-can't hear backwards. However, I did benefit from the improvements in Implant technology-completely at ear level with rechargeable batteries.
This Cochlear Implant is on all day except when I go swimming.
I don't communicate in "fingerspelling" - unnecessary.at the moment, as this computer is fine.


Implanted-Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07
 
I don't care about what you're on the audiogram. It's proven people who considers theirselves a HOH tend to have more issues than these who identify theirselves as Deaf.

But again, there are people who defines their deafness literally. I along with many others choose not to.
 
I define my deafness as being in silence- hearing nothing. Seems like a simple observation in contradiction the "cultural/ideological suppositions of Harlan Lane et al. Which seems to lead: what to do when that happens-possible to have a Cochlear Implant or remain in silence-learn/use ASL or BSL whatever- yeah even fingerspelling? Your choice! Determine/accept whatever the consequences of that choice entails.
Not sure what the term "bone deaf" means or who classifies "hearing" on the "bone scale"?
Gee: learning things all the time! Just checked the "bible" ( A Journey into the Deaf-World) NO reference to "bone deafness". Pass the important word to Harlan Lane to revise his thinking! Yeah: you are right: alldeaf.com cutting edge thinking- hopefully not only for the "bone deficient"!
Off to work and test the hypothesis: can the real deaf swim while deaf?

Implanted: Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07
 
Wirelessly posted

Did that go over your head too guys? Try relying on your OWN words instead of the books. Being "wordy" wont help you if want acceptence from your peers.
 
drphil said:
I define my deafness as being in silence- hearing nothing. Seems like a simple observation in contradiction the "cultural/ideological suppositions of Harlan Lane et al. Which seems to lead: what to do when that happens-possible to have a Cochlear Implant or remain in silence-learn/use ASL or BSL whatever- yeah even fingerspelling? Your choice! Determine/accept whatever the consequences of that choice entails.
Not sure what the term "bone deaf" means or who classifies "hearing" on the "bone scale"?
Gee: learning things all the time! Just checked the "bible" ( A Journey into the Deaf-World) NO reference to "bone deafness". Pass the important word to Harlan Lane to revise his thinking! Yeah: you are right: alldeaf.com cutting edge thinking- hopefully not only for the "bone deficient"!
Off to work and test the hypothesis: can the real deaf swim while deaf?

Implanted: Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07
Click to expand...


You seem rather fixated on Harlan Lane. I don't know anyone who's claimed that "A Journey into the DEAF-WORLD" was any sort of "Deaf bible" ... it's simply a book (which is now 15years old and as such, even at best is only able to be representative of aspects of some Deaf communities ... 15 years ago - and a LOT has changed in 15 years!!!)

If one hears nothing (tinnitus aside), they are simply "audiological deaf" ... that's it - small "d" deaf. For example, I was born completely audiologically deaf (+120db) on my right side.

For someone to say they are Deaf (intentionally capitalized as a proper noun, versus "deaf" which is not capitalized unless beginning a sentence) it implies a number of cultural, social, linguistic etc connotations in addition to some level of hearing loss (not necessarily bilaterally profound hearing loss though, I know many people who are audiologically Hoh, and culturally Deaf).

For many people who are audiologically Hoh or deaf - regardless of how well we may or may not do communicating orally, learning ASL (at least enough to have a very basic conversation), and being part of a community of people who share the same life experiences is very important.
In my case, I'm able to speak very well, and in quiet settings communicate orally fairly well ... but it's still a lot of work as well as being physically and mentally exhausting. While I can communicate in quiet - I'm unable to follow or participate in a conversation if there's more than 2 or 3 people ... or if there's any background noise, especially if any of the people speaking are "strangers" (ie not family/friends etc that I communicate with often and know their speech patterns, phrasing etc). As such, I'm unable to socialize, "hang out" etc with people in an auditory environment - however everything changes if the group knows ASL!
If I go to a social event (music blaring, people shouting etc) where there is a group who happens to know ASL - I'm suddenly able to casually and comfortably chat for hours and follow any conversation I want. I'm able chat with one person, or 10people about any things and everything - from "how's everyone doing" to debating the tiniest details on a theological topic (I'm a theology student, currently on medical leave, but a theology student none the less) - and yes I've done both, frequently.

For me it's not about which is "better" (oral or signed) it's about the freedom I have to socialize, meet people, access information etc because I am able to do both speak and sign. I'm able to attend any seminar, university class, drama/play, conference etc and understand completely what is being via an ASL/English Interpreter - things that I'm unable to do with my hearing alone - even with HA, even with FM etc (I'm not a CI candidate, in case you're wondering).

You've mentioned that there's no point in you learning ASL, because you have no one to use it with - yet you live in T.O. (or the surrounding area) where there is a HUGE ASL community made up of hearing, Hoh and d/Deaf individuals ... including all types of people from all types of jobs/walks of life, and of all ages ... including many "professionals" (ie individuals with Ph.Ds, people working in education, law, medicine, sociology, film/actors etc as well as "trades" and "retail" people).
I'm assuming that you actaully mean is that you have no current friends or family who use ASL? Either did I when I started learning ASL "formally" when I was 19/20 years old, but soon I formed friendships with other classmates (I was the only Hoh/Deaf person in my ASL Class - aside from my teacher of course), then began making friends with other ASL using Hoh and Deaf people - some of whom had used ASL their entire lives, many more who, like myself started learning as young adults.
I met people at various functions, including movie night (open caption movies held in the theatre of the Deaf Centre in my city), Hoh/Deaf sporting events (I watched), Deaf Bowling nights etc (Deaf Awareness Week - aka DAW is a HUGE DEAL here - it's a week packed full of various fun events, social opportunities, educational opportunities for everyone (especially hearing, Hoh and LD and their families).

You've read (or at least cited) a number of "key books on Deafness" ... and it seems that what you've read within the pages of those books has given you an inaccurate view of what, and who the Deaf Community is(meaning the cultural and linguistic group). It's absolutely critical to realize that many/most if not all of the books on the Deaf community you have mentioned here (ie A Journey into the DEAF-WORLD, When the Mind Hears, Deaf in America voices from a Culture, Train Go Sorry, Seeing Voices etc) are at minimum 10-15 years old, many much older.

The views reflected in those books reflect a Deaf Community that doesn't exist anymore, because any living, growing community changes, grows, as time progresses, especially as technology progresses ... and in the Deaf Community one of the most profound changes has been the feelings regarding CI - and for a very legitimate reasons. It's important to keep in mind that the CI that you have, is for all intents and purposes completely different than the CIs of the 70s and 80s. CIs have improved phenomenally in the last 15 years, even more in the last 8-10year, 5years, and continue to improve at an amazing rate. In the 70s & 80s the goal of CIs was to give "an awareness of sound/noise". The idea of effectively understanding speech without speechreading - way beyond the realm of dreams, let alone realistic expectations. Fast forward to 2010 where many people with CIs are able to hear sounds in the "normal range" and hear with a clarity that gives them access to speech (sometimes without speechreading).

In addition to CI technology improving significantly (and the physically technology having a significantly longer "human trial" time to work out potential risks, refine surgeries to be less invasive etc) one of the other things which has had a positive impact on the way the Deaf Community feels about CI is how the medical professionals have slowly started (at least in some areas) to come around about the benefits of ASL as a option in communication - verses their old belief that ASL needed to be avoided at all cost.
While it certainly varies from area to area - many of the newer Audiologists, (many of whom have taken at least some basic ASL, some of whom are bilingual/multilingual in other languages as well) are far more understanding of ASL as a language and respect that ASL is just as "valid" a means of communication as English, French, German. Many are also finally dispelling the myth that learning and using ASL will somehow prevent Hoh/Deaf children or adults from talking, or will use ASL as a "crutch" (which makes about as much sense as using German, French or Spanish as a "crutch"). Because more Audiologists have gained a greater respect for and understanding of ASL, and believe that for many HA and CI users ASL can be highly beneficial (in addition to oral and aural skills).

Today's Deaf Communities, just like hearing communities are becoming more diverse - which is a good thing, something which we should be proud of.

The Deaf community is made up of people with all types and amounts of hearing loss. We are people who:

are deaf from birth (unilaterally or bilaterally)
are late deafened - but had "normal hearing" most of their life
have profound, severe, moderate, or mild hearing loss
are very young (babies learning their first signs)
have celebrated their hundredth birthday
have been a part of the community their whole lives
have only recently found out there even is a "Deaf Community" at all
grew up oral & with ASL
are just learning their first signs (be they 9months, of 90years old)
who's native language is ASL
who only learned ASL as an adult, but have been Hoh/deaf since birth
wear hearing aid(s)
use a CI
Love and Cherish our language, forms of art, culture, diversity, unity
See deafness as a "difference" that makes us unique, but not a disadvantage

We are all different, we are all unique ...
but we are ALL part of the Deaf Community
:deaf::grouphug:
 
drphil said:
I define my deafness as being in silence- hearing nothing. Seems like a simple observation in contradiction the "cultural/ideological suppositions of Harlan Lane et al. Which seems to lead: what to do when that happens-possible to have a Cochlear Implant or remain in silence-learn/use ASL or BSL whatever- yeah even fingerspelling? Your choice! Determine/accept whatever the consequences of that choice entails.
Not sure what the term "bone deaf" means or who classifies "hearing" on the "bone scale"?
Gee: learning things all the time! Just checked the "bible" ( A Journey into the Deaf-World) NO reference to "bone deafness". Pass the important word to Harlan Lane to revise his thinking! Yeah: you are right: alldeaf.com cutting edge thinking- hopefully not only for the "bone deficient"!
Off to work and test the hypothesis: can the real deaf swim while deaf?

Implanted: Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07
Click to expand...

You need to get out more.
 
Anij said:
You seem rather fixated on Harlan Lane. I don't know anyone who's claimed that "A Journey into the DEAF-WORLD" was any sort of "Deaf bible" ... it's simply a book (which is now 15years old and as such, even at best is only able to be representative of aspects of some Deaf communities ... 15 years ago - and a LOT has changed in 15 years!!!)

If one hears nothing (tinnitus aside), they are simply "audiological deaf" ... that's it - small "d" deaf. For example, I was born completely audiologically deaf (+120db) on my right side.

For someone to say they are Deaf (intentionally capitalized as a proper noun, versus "deaf" which is not capitalized unless beginning a sentence) it implies a number of cultural, social, linguistic etc connotations in addition to some level of hearing loss (not necessarily bilaterally profound hearing loss though, I know many people who are audiologically Hoh, and culturally Deaf).

For many people who are audiologically Hoh or deaf - regardless of how well we may or may not do communicating orally, learning ASL (at least enough to have a very basic conversation), and being part of a community of people who share the same life experiences is very important.
In my case, I'm able to speak very well, and in quiet settings communicate orally fairly well ... but it's still a lot of work as well as being physically and mentally exhausting. While I can communicate in quiet - I'm unable to follow or participate in a conversation if there's more than 2 or 3 people ... or if there's any background noise, especially if any of the people speaking are "strangers" (ie not family/friends etc that I communicate with often and know their speech patterns, phrasing etc). As such, I'm unable to socialize, "hang out" etc with people in an auditory environment - however everything changes if the group knows ASL!
If I go to a social event (music blaring, people shouting etc) where there is a group who happens to know ASL - I'm suddenly able to casually and comfortably chat for hours and follow any conversation I want. I'm able chat with one person, or 10people about any things and everything - from "how's everyone doing" to debating the tiniest details on a theological topic (I'm a theology student, currently on medical leave, but a theology student none the less) - and yes I've done both, frequently.

For me it's not about which is "better" (oral or signed) it's about the freedom I have to socialize, meet people, access information etc because I am able to do both speak and sign. I'm able to attend any seminar, university class, drama/play, conference etc and understand completely what is being via an ASL/English Interpreter - things that I'm unable to do with my hearing alone - even with HA, even with FM etc (I'm not a CI candidate, in case you're wondering).

You've mentioned that there's no point in you learning ASL, because you have no one to use it with - yet you live in T.O. (or the surrounding area) where there is a HUGE ASL community made up of hearing, Hoh and d/Deaf individuals ... including all types of people from all types of jobs/walks of life, and of all ages ... including many "professionals" (ie individuals with Ph.Ds, people working in education, law, medicine, sociology, film/actors etc as well as "trades" and "retail" people).
I'm assuming that you actaully mean is that you have no current friends or family who use ASL? Either did I when I started learning ASL "formally" when I was 19/20 years old, but soon I formed friendships with other classmates (I was the only Hoh/Deaf person in my ASL Class - aside from my teacher of course), then began making friends with other ASL using Hoh and Deaf people - some of whom had used ASL their entire lives, many more who, like myself started learning as young adults.
I met people at various functions, including movie night (open caption movies held in the theatre of the Deaf Centre in my city), Hoh/Deaf sporting events (I watched), Deaf Bowling nights etc (Deaf Awareness Week - aka DAW is a HUGE DEAL here - it's a week packed full of various fun events, social opportunities, educational opportunities for everyone (especially hearing, Hoh and LD and their families).

You've read (or at least cited) a number of "key books on Deafness" ... and it seems that what you've read within the pages of those books has given you an inaccurate view of what, and who the Deaf Community is(meaning the cultural and linguistic group). It's absolutely critical to realize that many/most if not all of the books on the Deaf community you have mentioned here (ie A Journey into the DEAF-WORLD, When the Mind Hears, Deaf in America voices from a Culture, Train Go Sorry, Seeing Voices etc) are at minimum 10-15 years old, many much older.

The views reflected in those books reflect a Deaf Community that doesn't exist anymore, because any living, growing community changes, grows, as time progresses, especially as technology progresses ... and in the Deaf Community one of the most profound changes has been the feelings regarding CI - and for a very legitimate reasons. It's important to keep in mind that the CI that you have, is for all intents and purposes completely different than the CIs of the 70s and 80s. CIs have improved phenomenally in the last 15 years, even more in the last 8-10year, 5years, and continue to improve at an amazing rate. In the 70s & 80s the goal of CIs was to give "an awareness of sound/noise". The idea of effectively understanding speech without speechreading - way beyond the realm of dreams, let alone realistic expectations. Fast forward to 2010 where many people with CIs are able to hear sounds in the "normal range" and hear with a clarity that gives them access to speech (sometimes without speechreading).

In addition to CI technology improving significantly (and the physically technology having a significantly longer "human trial" time to work out potential risks, refine surgeries to be less invasive etc) one of the other things which has had a positive impact on the way the Deaf Community feels about CI is how the medical professionals have slowly started (at least in some areas) to come around about the benefits of ASL as a option in communication - verses their old belief that ASL needed to be avoided at all cost.
While it certainly varies from area to area - many of the newer Audiologists, (many of whom have taken at least some basic ASL, some of whom are bilingual/multilingual in other languages as well) are far more understanding of ASL as a language and respect that ASL is just as "valid" a means of communication as English, French, German. Many are also finally dispelling the myth that learning and using ASL will somehow prevent Hoh/Deaf children or adults from talking, or will use ASL as a "crutch" (which makes about as much sense as using German, French or Spanish as a "crutch"). Because more Audiologists have gained a greater respect for and understanding of ASL, and believe that for many HA and CI users ASL can be highly beneficial (in addition to oral and aural skills).

Today's Deaf Communities, just like hearing communities are becoming more diverse - which is a good thing, something which we should be proud of.

The Deaf community is made up of people with all types and amounts of hearing loss. We are people who:

are deaf from birth (unilaterally or bilaterally)
are late deafened - but had "normal hearing" most of their life
have profound, severe, moderate, or mild hearing loss
are very young (babies learning their first signs)
have celebrated their hundredth birthday
have been a part of the community their whole lives
have only recently found out there even is a "Deaf Community" at all
grew up oral & with ASL
are just learning their first signs (be they 9months, of 90years old)
who's native language is ASL
who only learned ASL as an adult, but have been Hoh/deaf since birth
wear hearing aid(s)
use a CI
Love and Cherish our language, forms of art, culture, diversity, unity
See deafness as a "difference" that makes us unique, but not a disadvantage

We are all different, we are all unique ...
but we are ALL part of the Deaf Community
:deaf::grouphug:
Click to expand...

yes, Dr Phil, we see you as equal as hearing people, not someone who is disabled. I hope you see us that way as well.
 
Wirelessly posted

If you want the "bible" it's the Green Book Series but you dont have to take my word for it. It was advised to me by my Deaf Studies professor at George Brown.
 
Interesting reading-now I am somehow a member of the deaf community-notwithstanding whatever opinion- to date formed from actual reading- i subscribe to. A cup of tea on the good news!
Yeah the deaf can swim-or least didn't stop me-today- from my usual distance. Good news.
Yeah the deaf ,me included,are NOT disabled.

Implanted-Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated on Aug/07
 
drphil said:
Interesting reading-now I am somehow a member of the deaf community-notwithstanding whatever opinion- to date formed from actual reading- i subscribe to.

Implanted-Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated on Aug/07
Click to expand...

No one "signed you up", you've made it quite clear that you haven't wanted to be a part of the Deaf Community - and that's fine... people opted INTO the Deaf community, it's a choice we make, not something that you "have to be a part of".

Furthermore, no one is implying that you're part of any (or "The") "Deaf Community" :roll: unless you actaully decide for yourself that is is something you are interested in being involved in.


The Deaf community is made up of people with all types and amounts of hearing loss. We are people who:

are deaf from birth (unilaterally or bilaterally)
are late deafened - but had "normal hearing" most of their life
have profound, severe, moderate, or mild hearing loss
are very young (babies learning their first signs)
have celebrated their hundredth birthday
have been a part of the community their whole lives
have only recently found out there even is a "Deaf Community" at all
grew up oral & with ASL
are just learning their first signs (be they 9months, of 90years old)
who's native language is ASL
who only learned ASL as an adult, but have been Hoh/deaf since birth
wear hearing aid(s)
use a CI
Love and Cherish our language, forms of art, culture, diversity, unity
See deafness as a "difference" that makes us unique, but not a disadvantage

We are all different, we are all unique ...
but we are ALL part of the Deaf Community
Click to expand...

Simply states that the people who CHOSE to be in the Deaf Community come from all different hearing and social backgrounds, ages, experiences with ASL etc ... note that it begins with:
"The Deaf community is made up of people with all types and amounts of hearing loss. We are people who..."

it does NOT say:
"All people with any amount of hearing loss are by definition, 'like it or not' part of the Deaf Community, including the following:"
:roll:



All that being aside - if you are interested in learning more about, or discussing ASL, or visual signallers & communication devices or other things regard hearing loss in a non-confrontational way, and willing to be open and listen to different opinions etc I'd be happy to discuss them with you.
 
Last edited:
I really enjoyed reading your letter about the Deaf community, Anij.
I've made the choice to be involved and am very happy about that.
 
Again an interesting computer interaction. I have some interest from my reality- total/real deaf- on what the Canadian Hearing Society and Sunnybrook Cochlear Implant section have/do talk about--re Cochlear Implants. That is why the books- "Wired for Sound" "rebuilt" were studied.
As mentioned before discovered that the "deaf" about 125 years ago "objected to learning to speak". Preferred to use ASL instead.Thus the "feeling of being a small group" who only connect using ASL/BSL/QSL et al. Seems to be, apparently carried on still today. This is why the huge uproar on Cochlear Implants- back a few years ago. How much modified in today's world? Notwithstanding the hypothesis I can't read- I picked up a long time ago when I knew I would in fact be deaf-Feb/92. Yeah an interest of long standing-amongst other things. Having studied Sociology-beginning- easy to consider the categories "In vs Out groups". Marxism is another way to view our society though obviously, in a different manner. Save your comments- can a deaf person be a Marxist! Ideology can be an interesting 'parlour game'.Other variants can be say- " whatever"-ethnic labels etc. I can check my mailbox for the "official letter" welcoming me to the Cochlear implant group of Coboconk/Sunnybrook. Off to real work-can the "deaf" really swim if total/real deaf? Does being "retired" change one's views on being total/real deaf?

Implanted: Advanced bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07
 
Dr. Phil, what was your job before you retired?
 
His job have something to do with balance. Which could be very useful for his problem he have with the deaf community.
 
drphil said:
Again an interesting computer interaction. I have some interest from my reality- total/real deaf- on what the Canadian Hearing Society and Sunnybrook Cochlear Implant section have/do talk about--re Cochlear Implants. That is why the books- "Wired for Sound" "rebuilt" were studied.
As mentioned before discovered that the "deaf" about 125 years ago "objected to learning to speak". Preferred to use ASL instead.Thus the "feeling of being a small group" who only connect using ASL/BSL/QSL et al. Seems to be, apparently carried on still today. This is why the huge uproar on Cochlear Implants- back a few years ago. How much modified in today's world? Notwithstanding the hypothesis I can't read- I picked up a long time ago when I knew I would in fact be deaf-Feb/92. Yeah an interest of long standing-amongst other things. Having studied Sociology-beginning- easy to consider the categories "In vs Out groups". Marxism is another way to view our society though obviously, in a different manner. Save your comments- can a deaf person be a Marxist! Ideology can be an interesting 'parlour game'.Other variants can be say- " whatever"-ethnic labels etc. I can check my mailbox for the "official letter" welcoming me to the Cochlear implant group of Coboconk/Sunnybrook. Off to real work-can the "deaf" really swim if total/real deaf? Does being "retired" change one's views on being total/real deaf?

Implanted: Advanced bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07
Click to expand...

I for the life of me, can't figure out WHY you signed up for, or continue to visit this message board...
You don't want to discuss anything, you don't want to see anything in a different way, you don't have a clue about the deaf community or ASL (which is obvious from your posts, regardless of the books you've read which may lead you to believe otherwise) and have no desire to be a part of the Deaf Community ( which is fine, your life). But then you post to threads where people ask legitimate questions regarding aspects of ASL, or fingerspelling (neither of which you are proficient in, in practice or theory) and post "answers" which are both not helpful - but are technically speaking not even correct. How does the "help" anyone?

Why are you here?

p.s. In all seriousness, do you have Asperger's? (that's a serious question btw, I'm not being sarcastic or facetious)


You sound like a very lonely person, with little or no social contacts, who is afraid to admit they may not know everything for fear of being ridiculed, and feels that CHS and Sunnybrook are somehow "god-like" and whatever they say is somehow gospel.
I keep hoping to come here and find you have posted something that indicates that you actual want to exchange ideas and learn from people here - but instead all I see is the same post, reworked and reworded over and over - you have a CI, you are "real deaf" (the term is "completely deaf"), you can swim, you think CHS and Sunnybrook know everything and taught you everything you could ever need to know, you don't want to listen to anything else anyone says .... honestly - you'd be better off just posting to a blog !


I actually wish that I lived closer to you so we could get together and really talk - I've been Hoh/Deaf my entire life and grew up completely oral, was the only Hoh/Deaf person I knew, and didn't have the opportunity for anything different until I was a young adult (when I started formally learning ASL, making friends with people in the Deaf Community, being able to attend all types of social events, attend seminars/conferences/meetings etc on whatever topic I wanted and go to university etc. -because with note-takers, ASL, CART etc I was able to follow along & be part of the group)
 
Back
Top