Deaf view on a CI kid... its a bummer..

[Cheri]

Taking it out of the context like that, and making it look like it was ME who came up with is - is filthy manipulative lie.

I am not afraid to back up my words, nor admit I was wrong, or apologize- but what Cheri here did is just dirty.

Please stick to the fact which is - my reply was to Cheri's reply, and the intention of MY reply was to show that a hearing parent is no worse or better than the deaf parent. That actually the same opinion can go both ways.

I was not trying to take anything out of context, I was only replying to Drew, Did I or not dragged your post from another thread to here without my post? No I did not, so therefore I did nothing wrong, Only part I am guilty of was mis-reading your post and that I apologized. You need to calm down instead of taking it personal. Your insulting remarks were so uncall for too. Watch what you say to me, Understand. Thank-you.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

I only mirrored what you wrote first, honey, about the hearing parents.



What you just did here, Cheri, by taking my reply to YOURS out of context, you created disgusting, filthy, manipulative lie that serves nobody but only further confuses the deaf community on the CI subject, and causes more division on both sides.
{Mod Edit: Previous 'quote' was removed--~RR}

And just to make things clear - I never said anybody MUST be hearing.


Fuzzy

*speechless*

Have you ask Cheri why she said this instead of jump and label her dirt like that? I can see that she talked out of her life experience.

I do not need to ask Cheri why after read her post because I know it´s true due my life experience with my hearing parents in the past.

I envied deaf people who have hearing parents who accept what they are and sign for them and learn to expose deaf world, and have time for them, etc.

My Dad admitted his mistake to me in 2000 after 10 years no contact what he did with me in the past. My Dad & I talked about CI issues last year and said that he would of implant me with CI tomorrow after learn about first CI techologny. I asked him why? He said that he like to whisper my ear. I was total speechless and then told him calmly that I am really glad that he did not do that to me without ask me first. He was like speechless with impressed Oh Well...

I feel that you owe Cheri an apology for jump and label her like that without ask her why...

 

[Cheri]

I feel that you owe Cheri an apology for jump and label her like that without ask her why...

Thank-you, Liebling.

 

[jillio]

I'm with you on this all the way, I believe that they're have a higher language development if they use both signs and speech. I've seen a lot of people in the deaf community who are skilled readers and writers without any reliance on sound they hear.

And, that has been supported empirically, as well. Including groups of CI children.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

That is absolutely NOT the point Jillio. if you care to see the other thread, read the WHOLE thing- first Cheri post, then my reply to her post - you will see why I replied the way I did. I had a reason to mirror her obnoxious post.

I quoted your previous post. You tried to mirror Cheri´s post but I see you missing the whole. (See my previous post at other thread).

Taking it out of the context like that, and making it look like it was ME who came up with is - is filthy manipulative lie.

You started to label Cheri dirt without ask her first why.....

I am not afraid to back up my words, nor admit I was wrong, or apologize- but what Cheri here did is just dirty.

No, Cheri did is not dirty but the fact because I had that experience with my hearing parents. Common like that.

Please stick to the fact which is - my reply was to Cheri's reply, and the intention of MY reply was to show that a hearing parent is no worse or better than the deaf parent. That actually the same opinion can go both ways.

You should not jump but ask her first why she said this. I has to say that Cheri´s description about hearing parents is true because my parents are one of them.

THAT'S the whole, true story. Not what Cheri did.

How do you know that Cheri´s post is lie? Did you ask her ?

BTW it's also doesn't matter - BECAUSE what Cheri wrote about hearing parents IS in the first place offensive. I for one, don't think a hearing parent is REQUIRED to learn sign language.

This is no sign of offensive but the fact. Some hearing parents did like that.

The ability to sign in no way equal "good parenting", period.

To me, it´s important to know that my hearing parents learn to sign for me... and learn where I come from... I envied my friends who have understanding hearing parents who expose deaf world.

A hearing parent can find OTHER ways of succesful loving communication with his deaf child.

Yes, that´s right but it´s important for the parents to learn sign for their children and show their love and attention on their children.

My parents never signed, but they went to great lenghts to speak to us slowly, with exaggerated lip movement to make lipreading easier for us, and they were always ready and patient to write things down. And while I never signed myself, my brother did, and never in my life I heard him complainign about our parents not signing. If he did, he never told me. In fact he was the one person who, if wanted, could teach our parents to sign, but he never did it. he never wanted to teach me! he wanted me to speak. myself, and to him.

Why can´t you ask your brother for his view and what he feeling?

And while I do see it is better to learn sign language for the sake of convenience, being able to sign to your child doesn't neccessary mean LOVING your child. So what if some hearing parent has learned to sign if is an abusive parent otherwise, beats his child and emotionally abuses it?

Everyone should start using a bit of common sense.
And to stop insulting hearing parents who just want the best for their children.

I know myself what I had through... I wish my parents can sign and expose deaf world... and have time for me... and learn from me...

Please use common sense.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Thank-you, Liebling.

Welcome

 

[jillio]

The thing that I find bothersome is the statement that the poster does not feel that a hearing parent is REQUIRED to learn sign language.

That leaves only one option....if they want to communicate with their child, and they don't learn sign language, then the CHILD is REQUIRED to learn spoken language. That reverses the situation and makes the child responsible for attending to the parents' needs. The parent is supposed to be responsible for taking care of the child, not the other way around.

If hearing parents are not REQUIRED to learn sign language, why is it all right to REQUIRE their deaf children to learn to speak?

 

[Maria]

The thing that I find bothersome is the statement that the poster does not feel that a hearing parent is REQUIRED to learn sign language.

That leaves only one option....if they want to communicate with their child, and they don't learn sign language, then the CHILD is REQUIRED to learn spoken language. That reverses the situation and makes the child responsible for attending to the parents' needs. The parent is supposed to be responsible for taking care of the child, not the other way around.

If hearing parents are not REQUIRED to learn sign language, why is it all right to REQUIRE their deaf children to learn to speak?

Just because, the way I see it that the hearin' parents see only themselves in deaf children. This also is not allowin' the deaf children to SEE themselves in hearin' parents/people when the hearin' parents/people do not use ASL since the deaf children are " deaf ". They ( hearin' parents/people ) want " it is ALL ME " for the deaf children to learn.

I wonder what if, the hearin' parents happen to be deaf, will they teach ASL to their deaf children ?

 

[jillio]

Just because, the way I see it that the hearin' parents see only themselves in deaf children. This also is not allowin' the deaf children to SEE themselves in hearin' parents/people when the hearin' parents/people do not use ASL since the deaf children are " deaf ". They ( hearin' parents/people ) want " it is ALL ME " for the deaf children to learn.

I wonder what if, the hearin' parents happen to be deaf, will they teach ASL to their deaf children ?

I tend to agree with you on this, Maria. Too many parents are asking their children to fulfill the role of parent. Waht a parent needs from the child should not be the priority. What the child needs from the parent should be.

 

[Cloggy]

I tend to agree with you on this, Maria. Too many parents are asking their children to fulfill the role of parent. Waht a parent needs from the child should not be the priority. What the child needs from the parent should be.

That's exactly what happens when the parent of a deaf child says that the child should make the decision.. They want the child to be the parent, and they take the position of the child. (i.e. Not taking the responsibility to make the decision.)
Either way, The parent makes the decision if the deaf child will be able to hear or if the deaf child stays deaf...

 

[jillio]

That's exactly what happens when the parent of a deaf child says that the child should make the decision.. They want the child to be the parent, and they take the position of the child. (i.e. Not taking the responsibility to make the decision.)
Either way, The parent makes the decision if the deaf child will be able to hear or if the deaf child stays deaf...

Not at all cloggy. Its allowing the child the opportunity to determine their own needs. And the parent doesn't make the decision if a child will hear or stay deaf. That decision has already been made. Even with CI, the child is still deaf. Just take that CI off and see what happens. If you think that deciding to implant gives you the power to decide whether your child is deaf or hearing, you greatly overestimate your own omnipotence.

 

[Buffalo]

Just wondering why many deaf people cannot see the deaf child having the capability to hear...

All this effort by Deaf society to convince that for the child it's better to stay deaf instead of to hear. Such utter nonsense.

Sometimes I feel that it is the bad expereinces from childhood, followed by good experiences when "finally" sign-language was learned is the motivator for this behaviour.
Allmost as if the child HAS to have to good experience of being deaf, and is not entitled to any good experience of hearing.

Every time, a deaf child with CI is compared with personal experiences as a child that is hard of hearing. And since the Deaf person had that experience - it automatically means that the new-born child also has that experience.

You are projecting your feeling of what is it like to be deaf onto those who was born deaf. You would feel the pain of losing your hearing. Us, Deaf people, don't miss what we never had in the first place so we don't feel the pain of not able to hear. We don't see deafness as a problem however we do see a lot of hearing people as problems. They refused to learn sign language, refused to hire us or promote us, refused to educate us on the par with hearing people, etc. They should get out of the way and start listen to us talking about what we need. For example, I want to keep the residental schools but pump up the education and get more qualified deaf teachers.

The hearing world is indifferent to sign. Like the Chinese world is indifferent to English, or Dutch.

Exactly! The Deaf world is indifferent to hearing.

I think this kind of behavior is mostly motivated by fear of the unknown, Cloggy, aided by misinformation, propaganda, and ethnocentrism. Those who are within the Deaf community fear the exodus of deaf children into the hearing world because it lessens THEIR community base. So they start making up stories that every parent will implant their deaf child, that every deaf child with a CI will be forced into an oral only upbringing, and that every deaf child with a CI will spurn the D/deaf communities in favor of the hearing world. Fear of the unknown is a powerful thing.

Its this fear-mongering that drives people to discount any kind of positive experience a child may have as "well not every child has that experience, so you shouldn't talk about it, because other people might think its that way with everybody and that's not right..." Its sad that people feel they have the right to interject THEIR beliefs into a decision that belongs to the family. My advice is to simply do what you believe is best - after all, the parents have the best interests for the child at heart, even if others refuse to believe this is so.

We are reacting to the fears of hearing people. The hearing people do have misconceptions of the deaf people. Like if one allow a deaf child to sign, then the child will stop talking. They also suppressed sign language in the past and still do in some schools. In the past, they've forbidden the deaf people to marry each other and also sterilized them to "prevent the spread" of deaf people which we now know that 90% of babies born to deaf parents are hearing. Lot of hearing people are so image-conscious so they don't want to learn sign language. Teachers also keep us behind in education because they believed that deaf children aren't that smart. (Don't tell me otherwise because I went thru that @%!*&^% school before I transferred to St. Rita). They are interjecting their belief in their deaf children by forbidding sign language. As long there are oral deaf schools, yes, they are forcing some deaf children to be oral. Read Harlan's "Mask of Benevolence" and you will see that sometimes the local schools can sometimes override the parents' wish(page 82). I love what Jillio said in her post #14 in response to your post wholeheartedly.

I'm surprised you seem to feel that someone is suggesting Deaf parents should not have the right to decide against a CI. Maybe I missed a post, but I haven't seen anyone get angry over someone not being implanted.

Remember Shel90 telling us about a woman who said that there ought to be a law forcing all deaf children to be implanted? That is what I feel that there are some people out there that want to overrule deaf parents' rights.

Exactly, shel. Deafness has been created as a disability by the hearing world. The hearing world promotes a view of deafness that identifies the deaf person as a pathological version of hearing person. The hearing world expects the deaf person to function and live as an approximation of a hearing person, not as a complete and whole deaf person. The hearing world exaggerates the deafness. The attitudes of hearing society are what turns deafness into a disability. The deaf,as a group, have been historically oppressed, discriminated against, isolated, under-educated, and under-employed. They have been treated as second class citizens, they have been misjudged, and they have been under-estimated. They have been subjected to extermination during the halocaust, they have been locked in mental institutions, they have had their civil rights violated, they have been unjustly incarcerated. They have been made disabled by the hearing society's treatment of their deafness, and then subjected to further humiliation by being treated as less than equal based on the disability that was created for them by others. They have been experimented on, treated as mental defectives, and had attempts made to prevent them from bearing children. And all of this injustice has occurred simply because they cannot hear. Simply becaue they do not possess the auditory sense that the majority has. The deaf population throughout history has been cruelly, cruelly punished by hearing society........and for what wrong? What wrong has the deaf man or woman or child done to deserve such punishment? The answer is NOTHING! And when the deaf population stands up and says, "ENOUGH! I will not allow you to treat me this way any longer! I will not allow you to humiliate and degrade me in this way any more!" they are labeled as militant. When they demand the same treatment that every hearing perosn in this society is afforded simply by the fact that they are hearing, they are accused of being unreasonable. When the deaf individual stands up and demands to be treated with the same respect afforded the hearing, and refuses to be degraded any longer, hearing society attempts to beat that individual back into submission.

Well put!

(sarcasm) So, no.....of course the deaf have nothing to be angry about.( end sarcasm). Try sending a hearing child to a school where they were smacked in the mouth every time they spoke a word, and see how much outrage is expressed. Try refusing to hire a hearing person simply because he communicates with spoken language and see how many protests result. Try executing a hearing person for no other reason than they can hear, and see how much anger results. Try putting legislation into place that mandates that hearing children be placed in ASL only classrooms, and watch what happens. Lets tell the hearing individuals in this world that they are unable to determine for themselves what is best for them, that they can't possibly know what they need, so the deaf community is going to tell them what is best for them and what they need and they damned well better listen! Shit, they can't even stand a little criticism regarding CI without going all to pieces. They would spin out of control if they had to live under the tyranny and opression equal to that experienced by the deaf!

That's funny! That is exactly what was rattling around in my head earlier this year. I even thought "Supposed the hearing kids were forbidden to speak and they get smacked in the mouth if they spoke a word". I am a big believer of 'Golden Rule' and that's why I was wondering what happened if the hearing and deaf positions were switched. I even thought "Suppose that since the hearing people can't sign, they must be retards. Therefore they shouldn't have chemistry or they'll blow up something. They shouldn't have higher mathmetics as it is too hard for them to understand them. They should have menial jobs. etc etc". If that happened, I know there would be uprising. No doubt about it.

SHel, you put so much value in being able not to hear. Why would you want to take the opportunity to hear away from deaf children. Just because you are deaf, they have to stay deaf??

Cloggy, You put so much value in being able to hear. Just because you are hearing, they have to be able to hear/speak with CI???

Perhaps it is time to start doing that.
After all, any child is able to learn sign ans speech, so refusing the deaf child the ability to hear, has nothing to do with communication within the family. It is about restricting possibilities, and normally that is regarded as a bad thing.

Are you saying that you are all for taking away deaf parents' right not to implant their deaf children?? If so, then you are doing exactly what we have been complaining about the hearing people. We want to be respected and be considered as an equal but we are being pushed around and being ordered about. Your country, Netherland had been occupied by foriegn countries, most recently Nazi Germany. You are too young to remember the WWII so how does your father or grandfather like being under other country's rule? Did he tells you about the troubles? How does that makes you feel? That's how we feel about the hearing people telling us how to live our lives.

That's why some deaf people have that view with CIs..another attempt by hearing people to conform us to their way..

&

Well fuzzy, there is a bit of a difference. All hearing parents, unless have no hands or are cognitively impaired from a brain injury that impairs their spatial abilities, can learn sign language. Not all deaf parents can learn to speak.

That is why I don't want a CI for myself. Why should I try to speak perfectly and hear everything so the hearing people don't have to sign. No way, this has to be two ways not one way street. You might have notice that some of ADers that have CI, called themselves Cyborgs. That is exactly how I see them and it brings to my mind "The Borg" from Star Trek: Voyager. This Annika was captured at age 8 along with her parents and they all were assimilated. What I remember the most is the hive mind as in thinking collective. Exactly! They are thinking of the hearing standard not the deaf standard. They must achive the hearing standard at all cost. Yeah, I know I'll catch flak for this but this is how I see from my point of view on CI.

 

[jillio]

You are projecting your feeling of what is it like to be deaf onto those who was born deaf. You would feel the pain of losing your hearing. Us, Deaf people, don't miss what we never had in the first place so we don't feel the pain of not able to hear. We don't see deafness as a problem however we do see a lot of hearing people as problems. They refused to learn sign language, refused to hire us or promote us, refused to educate us on the par with hearing people, etc. They should get out of the way and start listen to us talking about what we need. For example, I want to keep the residental schools but pump up the education and get more qualified deaf teachers.



Exactly! The Deaf world is indifferent to hearing.




We are reacting to the fears of hearing people. The hearing people do have misconceptions of the deaf people. Like if one allow a deaf child to sign, then the child will stop talking. They also suppressed sign language in the past and still do in some schools. In the past, they've forbidden the deaf people to marry each other and also sterilized them to "prevent the spread" of deaf people which we now know that 90% of babies born to deaf parents are hearing. Lot of hearing people are so image-conscious so they don't want to learn sign language. Teachers also keep us behind in education because they believed that deaf children aren't that smart. (Don't tell me otherwise because I went thru that @%!*&^% school before I transferred to St. Rita). They are interjecting their belief in their deaf children by forbidding sign language. As long there are oral deaf schools, yes, they are forcing some deaf children to be oral. Read Harlan's "Mask of Benevolence" and you will see that sometimes the local schools can sometimes override the parents' wish(page 82). I love what Jillio said in her post #14 in response to your post wholeheartedly.




Remember Shel90 telling us about a woman who said that there ought to be a law forcing all deaf children to be implanted? That is what I feel that there are some people out there that want to overrule deaf parents' rights.




Well put!



That's funny! That is exactly what was rattling around in my head earlier this year. I even thought "Supposed the hearing kids were forbidden to speak and they get smacked in the mouth if they spoke a word". I am a big believer of 'Golden Rule' and that's why I was wondering what happened if the hearing and deaf positions were switched. I even thought "Suppose that since the hearing people can't sign, they must be retards. Therefore they shouldn't have chemistry or they'll blow up something. They shouldn't have higher mathmetics as it is too hard for them to understand them. They should have menial jobs. etc etc". If that happened, I know there would be uprising. No doubt about it.




Cloggy, You put so much value in being able to hear. Just because you are hearing, they have to be able to hear/speak with CI???




Are you saying that you are all for taking away deaf parents' right not to implant their deaf children?? If so, then you are doing exactly what we have been complaining about the hearing people. We want to be respected and be considered as an equal but we are being pushed around and being ordered about. Your country, Netherland had been occupied by foriegn countries, most recently Nazi Germany. You are too young to remember the WWII so how does your father or grandfather like being under other country's rule? Did he tells you about the troubles? How does that makes you feel? That's how we feel about the hearing people telling us how to live our lives.


&


That is why I don't want a CI for myself. Why should I try to speak perfectly and hear everything so the hearing people don't have to sign. No way, this has to be two ways not one way street. You might have notice that some of ADers that have CI, called themselves Cyborgs. That is exactly how I see them and it brings to my mind "The Borg" from Star Trek: Voyager. This Annika was captured at age 8 along with her parents and they all were assimilated. What I remember the most is the hive mind as in thinking collective. Exactly! They are thinking of the hearing standard not the deaf standard. They must achive the hearing standard at all cost. Yeah, I know I'll catch flak for this but this is how I see from my point of view on CI.

No flak from me, Buffalo! You make perfect sense!

 

[Maria]

That's exactly what happens when the parent of a deaf child says that the child should make the decision.. They want the child to be the parent, and they take the position of the child. (i.e. Not taking the responsibility to make the decision.)
Either way, The parent makes the decision if the deaf child will be able to hear or if the deaf child stays deaf...

I don't believe in " co-dependecy " a deaf child should grow up from the hearin' parent. I believe that a deaf child should grow up independently when she/or he can THINK of their own - deaf child's mind, heart and soul, not hearin' parents. A deaf child is born with a " deaf " mind, a " deaf " heart and a " deaf " soul, NOT hearin'.

Soo, let's just say IF you are deaf - will YOU teach ur deaf child ASL ? I am positive sure that you WOULD, because you will FEEL that a deaf child is soo much just LIKE YOU and you would participate to share that " deaf " world with your deaf child. You will not feel any difference. Same boat, same train and same blue sky.

 

[jillio]

I don't believe in " co-dependecy " a deaf child should grow up from the hearin' parent. I believe that a deaf child should grow up independently when she/or he can THINK of their own - deaf child's mind, heart and soul, not hearin' parents. A deaf child is born with a " deaf " mind, a " deaf " heart and a " deaf " soul, NOT hearin'.

Soo, let's just say IF you are deaf - will YOU teach ur deaf child ASL ? I am positive sure that you WOULD, because you will FEEL that a deaf child is soo much just LIKE YOU and you would participate to share that " deaf " world with your deaf child. You will not feel any difference. Same boat, same train and same blue sky.

Excellent points, Maria!

 

[Angel]

don't think a hearing parent is REQUIRED to learn sign language.

How are hearing parents going to communicate with their CI children when they're not wearing their implants?


And sign language is not only for deaf/CI/hoh, if you read this article you will see why others use them too....

Who Else Uses Sign Language?

It is not just deaf and hard of hearing children who use sign language. Another large segment of sign language users is hearing nonverbal children who are nonverbal due to conditions such as down syndrome, autism, cerebral palsy, trauma, and brain disorders or speech disorders. For parents, sign language provides a means of quick communication, particularly for those whose attention spans may be very short or language very limited. Or it may be a tool for language development prior to developing spoken language. For children, it is a means of expressing themselves so that they are less frustrated.

Sign Language - Nonverbal Users

 

[jillio]

How are hearing parents going to communicate with their CI children when they're not wearing their implants?


And sign language is not only for deaf/CI/hoh, if you read this article you will see why others use them too....



Sign Language - Nonverbal Users

Very good, angel!

 

[Liebling:-)))]

The thing that I find bothersome is the statement that the poster does not feel that a hearing parent is REQUIRED to learn sign language.

That leaves only one option....if they want to communicate with their child, and they don't learn sign language, then the CHILD is REQUIRED to learn spoken language. That reverses the situation and makes the child responsible for attending to the parents' needs. The parent is supposed to be responsible for taking care of the child, not the other way around.

If hearing parents are not REQUIRED to learn sign language, why is it all right to REQUIRE their deaf children to learn to speak?

EXACTLY and

 

[Liebling:-)))]

How are hearing parents going to communicate with their CI children when they're not wearing their implants?


And sign language is not only for deaf/CI/hoh, if you read this article you will see why others use them too....



Sign Language - Nonverbal Users

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and also AMEN to those link.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

I don't believe in " co-dependecy " a deaf child should grow up from the hearin' parent. I believe that a deaf child should grow up independently when she/or he can THINK of their own - deaf child's mind, heart and soul, not hearin' parents. A deaf child is born with a " deaf " mind, a " deaf " heart and a " deaf " soul, NOT hearin'.

Soo, let's just say IF you are deaf - will YOU teach ur deaf child ASL ? I am positive sure that you WOULD, because you will FEEL that a deaf child is soo much just LIKE YOU and you would participate to share that " deaf " world with your deaf child. You will not feel any difference. Same boat, same train and same blue sky.

Exactly!!!!!!