Christins actually worshipping a WHAT??!

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EagleCherokee63 said:
Where version and chapters? Thanks!
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Ooops, Sorry I forgot to put down chapter of Duet. 5;7-12.. I was referring to MissLsej about not to put God or Lord's image in home or chuch.
 
missLsej said:
The way I understand that is that you can't have pictures of anything; including your actual family, pets, sports teams, presidents, yourself, friends, absolutely anything! "In Heaven, on the Earth and under the Earth/in the water" is pretty clear to me! :D

The point of the passage must be remembered! In that time many different groups worshipped the statues/images and offered them food. Basically saying that those items WERE the gods. God told the Israelites not to do this so that they would be a "nation set apart".

Today, Catholics know that (except maybe for small children who can't tell the difference yet) the images we have are NOT Jesus Christ, God, The Holy Spirit, the Saints or even the Devil. These are PICTURES and STATUES that REMIND US of those People. Like having a picture of your family or a statue of a president around.
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To be honest with you, we really don't know what Jesus does look like. Where is the proof of him during his time? I'm talking about not to hang cross, pictures of Jesus or counting hail Mary on Rosary, etc. I can still hang pictures of my family, I have several knick knack, etc. Catholic is a lot different than Christian. Catholics bows down in front of Jesus on cross, priest gives you a cookie or bread and wine,etc. Christians stays in their seat, we don't bow down or go up to get a bread or wine. We sings to praise the Lord and listen to the pastor, etc. I know what is like I've been there.
 
mecooncat said:
To be honest with you, we really don't know what Jesus does look like. Where is the proof of him during his time? I'm talking about not to hang cross, pictures of Jesus or counting hail Mary on Rosary, etc. I can still hang pictures of my family, I have several knick knack, etc. Catholic is a lot different than Christian. Catholics bows down in front of Jesus on cross, priest gives you a cookie or bread and wine,etc. Christians stays in their seat, we don't bow down or go up to get a bread or wine. We sings to praise the Lord and listen to the pastor, etc. I know what is like I've been there.
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Catholics ARE Christians first of all. I also have been to worship services from other congregations. Catholics also sing praise to the Lord and listen to our pastor. Please make sure you have the right information before criticising peoples' faith.

Second, there are some pictures of Jesus found on Catacombs from very early Church. Some of the First Christian communities, maybe even saw Jesus themselves. Plus those images are not just images, they were (and can still be) teaching tools. People who couldn't read would learn the stories and ideas about Jesus from the pictures.

I understand that we don't know really what Jesus looked like. We also don't know what the Holy Spirit, Moses, King David, a dragon, Merlin, King Arthur or an Angel looks like. Doesn't mean people can't imagine and make images of these things.

My point about saying about your family pictures was not that you should take them down, no. My point is that we consider Jesus, Mary and the Saints as our family and friends and so have pictures of them reminds us of them better than just a thought. As for the Rosary, not all Catholics pray the Rosary, I don't. True, I do say a Hail Mary prayer sometimes, but I also talk to Jesus directly every day.

The bowing you mention: we bow or we kneel out of respect when we enter the Church. Catholics believe that the Bread becomes the Body of Christ and stays that way forever. This is based on the Bible:

"And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."(Matthew 26:26-28. KJV)(also in Mark 14 and Luke 22)

"The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?"(1 Corinthians 10:16. KJV)

The "cookie"/bread you talk about (called a Host or Eucharist) represents the bread Jesus broke at the Last Supper. We take this bread as Jesus told us to:

"And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you."(Luke 22:19-20 KJV)
 
missLsej said:
Catholics don't WORSHIP the Virgin Mary. We ask Mary for prayers because she is the MOTHER OF GOD.
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Christians are not supposed to pray to anyone accept God, in Jesus's name. Mary isn't God, so it is wrong to pray to her (same for saints).

Mary wasn't the mother of God. Mary was the mother of the incarnate Jesus. Jesus was always God, since eternity past. His body was created at conception in Mary but He was never "conceived" as God. His deity existed forever, long before Mary existed.


Everyone knows that Mom's can get their kids to do things other people might not be able to. :D (Think - Wedding Feast at Cana)
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Mary has absolutely no more influence over Jesus in Heaven than any other person. Jesus is her Lord and Savior. She worships and obeys Him, not the other way around. Jesus is sovereign.


Also we HONOUR Mary because she carried Christ in her womb and raised GOD!
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Jesus on earth was God, yes. But Mary didn't raise God. Mary raised the human part of Jesus on earth. Jesus as God didn't require "raising".


Also - worship statues and pictures? NO! NO! We don't worship those.
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Why do people bow down in front of the pictures and statues? Why do they light candles to the pictures and statues? Why do cross themselves in front of the statues? Why do they venerate the images? Why do they pray to the images? I call that "worship".

We worship only God. You have pictures of family and friends in your house, yes? Do you worship those?
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I don't bow before them, pray to them, light candles to them, or cross myself to them.

No, you remind yourself with those pictures of those people are and then maybe remember to talk to your mom because you saw her picture!
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How can a picture of Jesus remind me of Him since I never saw His physical face? It's like saying any picture of a stranger woman would remind me of my mother. Not.

You can do what you want but please just be honest about it.
 
Thanks, Reba for explaining. I couldn't do it better.
 
People, dont you get it ?? Catholic and Christianity share , live, preach FROM THE SAME BIBLE.

If there are rift between christianity and catholic, that means that bible is entirely up to each group's interpretation. F823k up , if you ask me.
 
missLsej said:
Catholics ARE Christians first of all.
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Some Catholics are born-again Christians, and some born-again Christians are Catholics, that is true.


...Second, there are some pictures of Jesus found on Catacombs from very early Church.
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Can you please give me a link for that? That sounds interesting. I would like to see that.


... Plus those images are not just images, they were (and can still be) teaching tools. People who couldn't read would learn the stories and ideas about Jesus from the pictures.
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Yes, images of Jesus can be included in teaching about Him. However, most images that are displayed in churches are not used for teaching. They are there for veneration and prayer. If they were used for teaching, they wouldn't be left displayed on altars.


I understand that we don't know really what Jesus looked like. We also don't know what the Holy Spirit, Moses, King David, a dragon, Merlin, King Arthur or an Angel looks like. Doesn't mean people can't imagine and make images of these things.
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If people worship or pray to images of any of the above listed, that is also wrong.


My point about saying about your family pictures was not that you should take them down, no. My point is that we consider Jesus, Mary and the Saints as our family and friends and so have pictures of them reminds us of them better than just a thought.
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If you consider them the same as family members and friends, why do you pray to them? Do you pray to your family members and friends?


As for the Rosary, not all Catholics pray the Rosary, I don't. True, I do say a Hail Mary prayer sometimes, but I also talk to Jesus directly every day.
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Christians are not supposed to pray to Mary or any other humans, dead or alive.


The bowing you mention: we bow or we kneel out of respect when we enter the Church.
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What about genuflecting in front of Mary and saint statues?


Catholics believe that the Bread becomes the Body of Christ and stays that way forever....
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Catholics believe in transubstantiation of the bread and wine. The Catholic doctrine is that the bread and wine actually become the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ.

Non-Catholics believe that the bread and wine (or crackers and juice) just represent the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ.

Also, Catholics worship the elements of the Communion.

Non-Catholics don't worship the elements of the Lord's Supper.
 
Reba said:
Mary wasn't the mother of God. Mary was the mother of the incarnate Jesus. Jesus was always God, since eternity past. His body was created at conception in Mary but He was never "conceived" as God. His deity existed forever, long before Mary existed.



Mary has absolutely no more influence over Jesus in Heaven than any other person. Jesus is her Lord and Savior. She worships and obeys Him, not the other way around. Jesus is sovereign.



Jesus on earth was God, yes. But Mary didn't raise God. Mary raised the human part of Jesus on earth. Jesus as God didn't require "raising".
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I know that Jesus existed before Mary. But God still chose Mary to be the Theotokos ("God bearer"). Just by having been chosen by God for such an important task makes her special, yes?

If you read the story of the Wedding Feast at Cana you know that Jesus and Mary were both at this wedding. They ran out of wine. Mary went to Jesus and told him they had no wine. Jesus said "Woman, what is this to me? My time has not yet come" (He wasn't doing any ministry or miracles yet). Mary didn't argue with him but told the servants "Do what he tells you". Jesus then turned the water to wine. If Mary only worshipped and obeyed Jesus she would not have done that.

This story also shows us that Mary is not the one we should worship. She says to us (as the servants) "Do what He tells you." So Mary always takes us to Jesus

Reba said:
Christians are not supposed to pray to anyone accept God, in Jesus's name. Mary isn't God, so it is wrong to pray to her (same for saints).

Why do people bow down in front of the pictures and statues? Why do they light candles to the pictures and statues? Why do cross themselves in front of the statues? Why do they venerate the images? Why do they pray to the images? I call that "worship".


I don't bow before them, pray to them, light candles to them, or cross myself to them.


How can a picture of Jesus remind me of Him since I never saw His physical face? It's like saying any picture of a stranger woman would remind me of my mother. Not.
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Ok, maybe I haven't explained the family connection well enough. We think of Mary and the Saints as Family. Therefor we keep pictures of them and ask them to help us pray and live good lives. Do you have any aunts, uncles, friends, teachers, etc. that you look up to? Maybe you think Nelson Mandela is someone to look up to and copy, or Mahatma Ghandi? We think similar of the Saints and Mary. I personally have a dedication to St. Andrew the Apostle of Jesus and brother of Simon Peter. Why shouldn't I think about him and talk to him and ask for his help? I want to be like him in bringing people to Jesus. (The Feeding of the 5000 and Andrew introduced Peter to Jesus).

Maybe you don't pray to Mahatma Ghandi, but maybe read a book about him or by him? Maybe you try to copy him?

As for the candles - The candles come from old traditions. They mean to represent the prayers we send up to God. The Jewish people had incense that they burned (as did many old religions). The smoke they made represented their prayers floating up to God, the same was meant of the animal sacrifices - the smoke was the prayer going up to God.

And crossing myself. Hhhmmmm, I always viewed that as a prayer to Jesus. When we cross ourselves we are repeating a short prayer: "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit".

Reba said:
You can do what you want but please just be honest about it.
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Ouch, I am honest, thank you!


Reba said:
Some Catholics are born-again Christians, and some born-again Christians are Catholics, that is true.
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No, I mean that ALL Catholics are Christians, we worship Jesus Christ. Same as other Christians. As for born again - I was baptized as a baby and accepted my faith (Confirmed) in grade 7. I too can be considered born again. :D
"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."(John 3:5)

Reba said:
Can you please give me a link for that? That sounds interesting. I would like to see that.
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I found two links that have some nice pictures and information for you. :)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Images_of_Jesus

www.thisischurch.com/sermon/PicturesOfJesus.pdf

Reba said:
Yes, images of Jesus can be included in teaching about Him. However, most images that are displayed in churches are not used for teaching. They are there for veneration and prayer. If they were used for teaching, they wouldn't be left displayed on altars.
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So, a teacher should take down the alphabet everyday? A science teacher should put away the periodic table after every lesson? Do you take down your family pictures off the wall every day?

Reba said:
If people worship or pray to images of any of the above listed, that is also wrong.
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lol I agree. I wasn't saying that we should worship those things, just that it's ok to make images of them and yet if we were to follow God's word on the matter to the letter we shouldn't make images of those either, or take pictures of family and friends for that matter.

Reba said:
If you consider them the same as family members and friends, why do you pray to them? Do you pray to your family members and friends?



Christians are not supposed to pray to Mary or any other humans, dead or alive.



What about genuflecting in front of Mary and saint statues?
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I ask my family and friends to pray for me. I cannot say this enough we don't pray TO the Saints. We pray with the Saints. Maybe you call your Pastor and say "I'm having a bad day, I want to do well on my test, etc." Will your Pastor not pray for you and with you?

We kneel out of respect only. Do you not maybe hug your parents? We can't hug the saints so we kneel out of respect.

Reba said:
Catholics believe in transubstantiation of the bread and wine. The Catholic doctrine is that the bread and wine actually become the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ.

Non-Catholics believe that the bread and wine (or crackers and juice) just represent the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ.

Also, Catholics worship the elements of the Communion.

Non-Catholics don't worship the elements of the Lord's Supper.
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Again I go back to the Last Supper of Jesus. Jesus didn't say "Take this and eat - it represents my body." NO! Jesus said "Take this and eat it. THIS MY BODY."

We venerate the bread and wine because we believe it IS the body of Jesus. Many people visit the tombs of different famous people (Lenin, Pope John Paul II, etc.)

I know that this particular part of the Catholic faith is not easy to understand, it is the biggest cause of difference between the denominations. It took me many years to understand it as I do now. All I can say to you about it is it comes from an old philosophy idea that the physical thing stays the same while the essence of it is changed. It stay bready and wine in appearance, but in it's essence becomes the body of Christ.
 
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Why Is Mary Crying?

I am not accepted Catholic anyway because history longest story murdered Christian a million!!!! from Catholic. Catholic is very different religion not sample Christian way! My heart was broke! because a million Christian dead....
 
EagleCherokee63 said:
Why Is Mary Crying?

I am not accepted Catholic anyway because history longest story murdered Christian a million!!!! from Catholic. Catholic is very different religion not sample Christian way! My heart was broke! because a million Christian dead....
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Where did you learn this?? I don't know about this. Can you show me more?
 
Don't forget what Elizabeth said IN THE BIBLE:

"41. When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
42. And she cried out with a loud voice and said, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
43. "And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me?
44. "For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy.
45. "And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what had been spoken to her by the Lord."
(Luke 1 NASV)

Also, the sin offering is not for the WOMAN's sin but it is a ransom for the child:

2. "Sanctify to Me every firstborn, the first offspring of every womb among the sons of Israel, both of man and beast; it belongs to Me." (Exodus 13 NASV)

Plus, the Jewish people at that time believed that a woman's period WAS a SIN. We know today that it is not, it is a part of nature. Plus Mary's sinless nature is a long tradition in the Catholic Church.

The tract you linked to is also unfair. You are putting words in the mouth of someone at the very least to be respected, and there is no written proof that she said the things "quoted" in the tract.

As further explanation for praying "to" the saints (asking them for intercession - to pray for us):

Since Abraham, intercession - asking on behalf of another has been characteristic of a heart attuned to God's mercy. In the age of the Church, Christian intercession participates in Christ's, as an expression of the communion of saints. In intercession, he who prays looks "not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others," even to the point of praying for those who do him harm.(Catholic Catechism #2365)
 
KINGOFNOOBS said:
People, dont you get it ?? Catholic and Christianity share , live, preach FROM THE SAME BIBLE.

If there are rift between christianity and catholic, that means that bible is entirely up to each group's interpretation. F823k up , if you ask me.
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I am sorry I not accepted what you said Catholic and Christianity share, live, preach FROM THE SAME BIBLE. You didn't research history and compare different Bible. I not agreed this!!!!
 
Cherokee
Fine
Great
You don't agree
Please prove your opinion... only trying to help.
 
missLsej said:
I know that Jesus existed before Mary. But God still chose Mary to be the Theotokos ("God bearer"). Just by having been chosen by God for such an important task makes her special, yes?
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Special, yes, but still a human sinner like everyone else.


If you read the story of the Wedding Feast at Cana you know that Jesus and Mary were both at this wedding. They ran out of wine. Mary went to Jesus and told him they had no wine. Jesus said "Woman, what is this to me? My time has not yet come" (He wasn't doing any ministry or miracles yet). Mary didn't argue with him but told the servants "Do what he tells you". Jesus then turned the water to wine. If Mary only worshipped and obeyed Jesus she would not have done that.
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Yes, I have read the story of the wedding feast at Cana. Mary was acting as a human mother. As you can see by Jesus' response to her, she didn't have a full understanding of His mission and timing. She had faults, just like every mother does.


This story also shows us that Mary is not the one we should worship.
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If you believe what you say, then why do you worship her?


She says to us (as the servants) "Do what He tells you." So Mary always takes us to Jesus
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After Mary died, she had no communication with anyone on earth again. If you mean that her example in Scriptures can lead people to Jesus, then OK. If you mean she has led people to Jesus after her death, thru prayer, then NO, that is incorrect.


Ok, maybe I haven't explained the family connection well enough. We think of Mary and the Saints as Family. Therefor we keep pictures of them and ask them to help us pray and live good lives.
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How do you do that? They are dead. You can't "ask" them to do anything for you.


Do you have any aunts, uncles, friends, teachers, etc. that you look up to?
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Yes. But I don't communicate with the dead ones.


Maybe you think Nelson Mandela is someone to look up to and copy, or Mahatma Ghandi?
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Not hardly.


We think similar of the Saints and Mary. I personally have a dedication to St. Andrew the Apostle of Jesus and brother of Simon Peter. Why shouldn't I think about him and talk to him and ask for his help?
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You can think about him, no problem. But you can't talk to him or ask his help because he's dead, and because you should be praying to Jesus instead. It is wrong to pray to anyone other than our Lord.


I want to be like him in bringing people to Jesus. (The Feeding of the 5000 and Andrew introduced Peter to Jesus).
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If you want him for a role model (good example) that's fine. But it is wrong to pray to him.


As for the candles - The candles come from old traditions. They mean to represent the prayers we send up to God. The Jewish people had incense that they burned (as did many old religions). The smoke they made represented their prayers floating up to God
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Incense represented the presence of the Holy Spirit. Christians have the Holy Spirit within them, so they don't need to use incense for spiritual reasons any more.


the same was meant of the animal sacrifices - the smoke was the prayer going up to God.
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Animal sacrifice is over. Jesus was the final sacrifice. It is finished!


And crossing myself. Hhhmmmm, I always viewed that as a prayer to Jesus. When we cross ourselves we are repeating a short prayer: "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit".
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Then why cross yourself in front of a statue of Mary or a saint? That's not Jesus.


No, I mean that ALL Catholics are Christians, we worship Jesus Christ.
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Has each and every Catholic person individually and consciously repented his/her sins, and accepted the shed blood of Jesus Christ as the One and Only one-time permanent way to salvation, with no works or ceremonies added? Has each Catholic revealed that to you?

I would never say that every Baptist is a Christian. I don't know the hearts of every Baptist. Only God knows. Also, I know many, many people who are NOT Baptists are fully born-again Christians.


...As for born again - I was baptized as a baby and accepted my faith (Confirmed) in grade 7. I too can be considered born again. :D
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You might considered that as "born again" but that's not what Jesus calls it. Baptism cannot and does not save anyone, ever. People can be saved without baptism. Baptism shows public obedience to God, AFTER salvation, not before. A person must be saved first, and then baptized.


"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water"
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Natural birth.


"... and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."(John 3:5)
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Spiritual second birth.


So, a teacher should take down the alphabet everyday? A science teacher should put away the periodic table after every lesson? Do you take down your family pictures off the wall every day?
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They aren't being bowed or prayed to.

Christians are supposed to focus on the words and messages of Jesus, not His supposed physical image.


lol I agree. I wasn't saying that we should worship those things...
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If you agree that is it is wrong to worship images and relics, then why do you and other Catholics do it?


I ask my family and friends to pray for me. I cannot say this enough we don't pray TO the Saints. We pray with the Saints. Maybe you call your Pastor and say "I'm having a bad day, I want to do well on my test, etc." Will your Pastor not pray for you and with you?
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So you mean living people? That's fine for you to ask living people to pray for you and with you. You can't ask dead people to do that. Christians aren't even supposed to try to communicate with the dead.


We kneel out of respect only.
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Respect for whom? A statue?

Revelation 22
6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. 7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. 8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.


Again I go back to the Last Supper of Jesus. Jesus didn't say "Take this and eat - it represents my body." NO! Jesus said "Take this and eat it. THIS MY BODY."
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His body and blood are no longer here on earth. If you believe they are, then you deny the resurrection.


We venerate the bread and wine because we believe it IS the body of Jesus. Many people visit the tombs of different famous people (Lenin, Pope John Paul II, etc.)
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I don't get that connection at all. :confused:


I know that this particular part of the Catholic faith is not easy to understand, it is the biggest cause of difference between the denominations. It took me many years to understand it as I do now. All I can say to you about it is it comes from an old philosophy idea that the physical thing stays the same while the essence of it is changed. It stay bready and wine in appearance, but in it's essence becomes the body of Christ.
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I understand what you say. It is wrong but I understand it.

I Corinthians 11
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

The word "shew" means to represent. Partaking in the Lord's Supper is to show His death until He comes again. It is not to do the Lord's death again. It is finished.

At the original Passover supper with Jesus, it was He Himself who broke the bread and passed the cup. He could say it was His body and blood. It is only humans who pass the bread and cup now, and they can't make that same claim because it is not within their authority.
 
I found two links that have some nice pictures and information for you.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Images_of_Jesus

www.thisischurch.com/sermon/PicturesOfJesus.pdf
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Thank you.

Sorry, I couldn't click open the first one. :dunno:

The second one shows the earliest image was around AD 375. That's over 300 years after the crucifixion of Jesus. That means, the artist never actually saw Jesus. That, and all images of Jesus, are just artists' conceptions of what He might have looked like. They are interesting but not for worship.
 
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