Auditory-verbal therapy research claims

These are people that have been judged as oral successes, have been able to function in a hearing world, yet when they are finally exposed tothe Deaf community and sign language experience a great sense of having missed out on something alll of their lives.
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Amen! The thing is, that it's got this HUGE HUGE "disabilty" stigma.
Rick, the singlar of data isn't ancedote. Yes, there are kids who do really well orally, but I mean even many "sucesses" still have significent issues with functioning in the hearing world. (eg they still need speech therapy or special ed services, and many of them still have significent social issues)
There was that kid who spoken seven languages, back when the only option was relatively primative hearing aids. That doesn't mean that ALL kids will do as well.
And I mean......even a lot of kids who do semi decently orally, still are going to have signficent expressive speech issues. Whereas if they'd learned Sign, they could have expressed themselves on a Harvard level!
 
Yes.. this is a big concern!

In fact, there are surveys, that shows us that oralists, wether it be deaf/hard of hearing/hearing aids/CI, are more prone to a jobless adulthood and serious psychological problems, compared to people connected to a sign language society.

I wonder if some parents not are aware of this fact? Some hard of hearing assocations even promote use of sign language because of this.

As I see, this is part of reason why many deaf/HOH people, don't get much impressed by speech development in deaf kids. That is often really more of a concern than relief, especially when not connected with other sign language users.

So parents seeking advice and acceptance for their early speech therapy at alldeaf.com, will seldom get more than polite applause from most deaf adults here for taking interest in their kids.

It seems like it is better to put you kids in a deaf school with lousy litteracy than goin mainstream and reading 3-4 books a year in 1st grade, considering those surveys. I do really understand how hard this choice can be. Many of us know why there are so low litteracy in some deaf schools among some students, and I hope we can clear out those things, so parents not get scared away into the fangs of oralists :-0

I would also like to see some scientifical papers that proves speech therapy is as powerful or more, as ASL for language and congnitive development. Anyone?
 
flip said:
Yes.. this is a big concern!

In fact, there are surveys, that shows us that oralists, wether it be deaf/hard of hearing/hearing aids/CI, are more prone to a jobless adulthood and serious psychological problems, compared to people connected to a sign language society.

I wonder if some parents not are aware of this fact? Some hard of hearing assocations even promote use of sign language because of this.

As I see, this is part of reason why many deaf/HOH people, don't get much impressed by speech development in deaf kids. That is often really more of a concern than relief, especially when not connected with other sign language users.

So parents seeking advice and acceptance for their early speech therapy at alldeaf.com, will seldom get more than polite applause from most deaf adults here for taking interest in their kids.

It seems like it is better to put you kids in a deaf school with lousy litteracy than goin mainstream and reading 3-4 books a year in 1st grade, considering those surveys. I do really understand how hard this choice can be. Many of us know why there are so low litteracy in some deaf schools among some students, and I hope we can clear out those things, so parents not get scared away into the fangs of oralists :-0



I would also like to see some scientifical papers that proves speech therapy is as powerful or more, as ASL for language and congnitive development. Anyone?
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Both deaf and public schools have guaranteed 90 minute blocks for both language arts and math daily. Our students are required to read one on-level books independently and then retell them using their own words (ASL or spoken language for the CI students) once a day. I am sure the same goes for public schools. There are higher expectations for literacy skills now for all children whether deaf or hearing...so I dont know what u meant by lousy literacy? U mean the kids themselves that have lousy literacy skills or the deaf schools provide lousy literacy expectations?

Our problem is that many of the parents dont read to their children at home because they say they dont know sign language..we tell them it doesnt matter if their ASL are not perfect but as long as they sit down with their child and get a book out together. Some do and some dont...cant win them all I guess?
Public schools have the same problem with parents too...u see inner city schools having lower literacy skills so..I dont see why people have a tendacy to blame deaf schools for everything. Makes me :pissed:
 
Sorry for upsetting you and beeing unclear, my mistake.

With "lousy", I mean the prejudices you mentions. I tried to write like a parent relying on speech programs.

It's silly how some parents expect the schools to bring their kids up to par with other average kids, while they do nothing at home, not even language interaction, speech or sign language. It's something wrong when I have to explain deaf kids what happens at home, as their parents do not even know basic sign langauge!

And like you say, deaf schools gets wrongly blamed for mistakes done other places, and this can lead parents to rely much more on speech programs.

Hope I was more clear this time. Keep up your great work, Shel.
 
are more prone to a jobless adulthood and serious psychological problems,
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Exactly!!!! I mean the pro oral folks tend to push Sign as a "crutch"........but in this day and age of out of control heath care costs, its now the oral deaf kids who are technology dependant, and can't function without technology. Someone who's bilingal in both ASL and speech CAN function without expensive technology!
And the serious pschological problems...........YES, I mean we have high rates of depression, and drug and alchohol abuse!
 
deafdyke said:
Exactly!!!! I mean the pro oral folks tend to push Sign as a "crutch"........but in this day and age of out of control heath care costs, its now the oral deaf kids who are technology dependant, and can't function without technology. Someone who's bilingal in both ASL and speech CAN function without expensive technology!
And the serious pschological problems...........YES, I mean we have high rates of depression, and drug and alchohol abuse!
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Speaking of alchohol abuse, when I was in high school, I felt that I needed to get at least a good buzz from alcohol at high school parties. I was usually making so many rounds to the beer key. My friends didn't drink at every party and they asked me why I needed to drink at every party we went to. I didn't know why but after my therapy seesions 10 years later, I came to the realization I was using alcohol to help me feel comfortable in large crowds and not worry abouit nobody understanding me nor me understanding them. I was lucky I didn't become a full-fledged aloholic by the time I graduated from high school. Luckily, in my senior year I made friends with this great group and they treated me no differently so I didn't drink at all during my senior year..well maybe prom and graduation. LOL!

Never touched drugs cuz I was tooo scared of them. Whew!
 
deafdyke said:
Exactly!!!! I mean the pro oral folks tend to push Sign as a "crutch"........but in this day and age of out of control heath care costs, its now the oral deaf kids who are technology dependant, and can't function without technology. Someone who's bilingal in both ASL and speech CAN function without expensive technology!
And the serious pschological problems...........YES, I mean we have high rates of depression, and drug and alchohol abuse!
Click to expand...

Speaking of alchohol abuse, when I was in high school, I felt that I needed to get at least a good buzz from alcohol at high school parties. I was usually making so many rounds to the beer key. My friends didn't drink at every party and they asked me why I needed to drink at every party we went to. I didn't know why but after my therapy seesions 10 years later, I came to the realization I was using alcohol to help me feel comfortable in large crowds and not worry abouit nobody understanding me nor me understanding them. I was lucky I didn't become a full-fledged aloholic by the time I graduated from high school. Luckily, in my senior year I made friends with this great group and they treated me no differently so I didn't drink at all during my senior year..well maybe prom and graduation. LOL!

Never touched drugs cuz I was tooo scared of them. Whew!
 
jillio said:
Wrong! They aren't qualified as special education any more that a Black college is classified as special education.
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That reminds me. The difference between academic reputation for Howard University (#88 on US News list of top national universities) and Gallaudet has always bugged me. It'd be nice if Gallaudet could build the academic mettle to make it to Howard's level for undergraduate education.

I'll hope for that.
 
flip said:
Yes.. this is a big concern!

In fact, there are surveys, that shows us that oralists, wether it be deaf/hard of hearing/hearing aids/CI, are more prone to a jobless adulthood and serious psychological problems, compared to people connected to a sign language society.

I wonder if some parents not are aware of this fact? Some hard of hearing assocations even promote use of sign language because of this.

As I see, this is part of reason why many deaf/HOH people, don't get much impressed by speech development in deaf kids. That is often really more of a concern than relief, especially when not connected with other sign language users.

So parents seeking advice and acceptance for their early speech therapy at alldeaf.com, will seldom get more than polite applause from most deaf adults here for taking interest in their kids.

It seems like it is better to put you kids in a deaf school with lousy litteracy than goin mainstream and reading 3-4 books a year in 1st grade, considering those surveys. I do really understand how hard this choice can be. Many of us know why there are so low litteracy in some deaf schools among some students, and I hope we can clear out those things, so parents not get scared away into the fangs of oralists :-0

I would also like to see some scientifical papers that proves speech therapy is as powerful or more, as ASL for language and congnitive development. Anyone?
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Research point to the opposite conclusion, as does the steady decline in lieracy rates following the influx of oral attitudes into education for deaf children.
 
deafdyke said:
Exactly!!!! I mean the pro oral folks tend to push Sign as a "crutch"........but in this day and age of out of control heath care costs, its now the oral deaf kids who are technology dependant, and can't function without technology. Someone who's bilingal in both ASL and speech CAN function without expensive technology!
And the serious pschological problems...........YES, I mean we have high rates of depression, and drug and alchohol abuse!
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Higher rates of PTSD and diagnosed personality disorders and anxiety based disorders as well.
 
rick48 said:
"For you to hold your daughter's success up as the standard for all parents of all deaf children is simply egotistical."

You know, I am simply not going to let you post a lie and get away with it.

I have never, ever used my daughter as the standard for all parents of all deaf children and you know that. Why you need to lie about it is troubling. Please show me the post wherein I stated that she is the standard.

I know too well the time, effort and devotion that goes into raising a deaf child, especially one with a ci. I know too well that despite all that time, effort, devotion and love, results vary. I know too well that we have been blessed to have our daughter do as well as she has.

I have been involved in the ci community for nearly two decades and have spoken to many parents considering the ci, I have written articles and spoken at seminars and conventions and not once have I ever said to anyone that if you get a ci then this is what will happen and certainly never that your child will achieve the same success with her ci as my daughter has.

But yes, I have encountered people who say that a child with a ci cannot (fill in the blank, there are so many) and when appropriate have said that is not true because my daughter can or does.

I do not care if you insult my grammar, spelling or intelligence nor do I care that you need to label me as defensive or insecure in order to make your points. I am a big boy and I also consider the source. However, do not make things up about me and especially my daughter.
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There you go: making assumptions again. This began with you making the statement that I was anit-CI when NOTHING could be further from the truth. You take any remark that refers to limitation and turn it into an attack on those who have chosen CI for their children. You seem to be incapable of discussing the pros and cons of the options without responding as if disagreement is a personal attack on you.

I respond with insult because you respond with insult. Youare incapable of discussing an issue without including a personal attack. If you disagree with me, simply provide valid reasosning and data to support yourself. Do not make accusations or assumptions regarding me or my belief system.

I have no idea where you are getting this "making stuff up about me or my daughter". I have not fabricated anything. I have, however, voiced my opinion. That can in no way be contrued as being a lie. Obviously, you are satisfied with the choices you have made, and that is well and good. But you continue to limit yourself to one side of the coin. Yousay you are involved with other parents who are considering or have chosen CI for their children. I am as well. However, I am also involved with those who have made a different dicision in order to maintain a balanced perspective. Until you look at both sides of the issue, and in relation not just to your daughter, but to all deaf children, you have a skewed perspective. If you are, indeed so secure in your choice and so confident in you knowledge, why is it that you become so personally agressive toward those who point out inconsistencies?
 
shel90 said:
Speaking of alchohol abuse, when I was in high school, I felt that I needed to get at least a good buzz from alcohol at high school parties. I was usually making so many rounds to the beer key. My friends didn't drink at every party and they asked me why I needed to drink at every party we went to. I didn't know why but after my therapy seesions 10 years later, I came to the realization I was using alcohol to help me feel comfortable in large crowds and not worry abouit nobody understanding me nor me understanding them. I was lucky I didn't become a full-fledged aloholic by the time I graduated from high school. Luckily, in my senior year I made friends with this great group and they treated me no differently so I didn't drink at all during my senior year..well maybe prom and graduation. LOL!

Never touched drugs cuz I was tooo scared of them. Whew!
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Thanks for sharing that, shel.. Its just another example of the issues that are tied to communication. Its not all about oral vs. ASL. It about the best way to give our deaf children a balance to prevent the psychological and social problems they are at risk for. ALL deaf children carry an increased risk.
 
Endymion said:
That reminds me. The difference between academic reputation for Howard University (#88 on US News list of top national universities) and Gallaudet has always bugged me. It'd be nice if Gallaudet could build the academic mettle to make it to Howard's level for undergraduate education.

I'll hope for that.
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You and I both, Endy!
 
Jillio,

Your opinions and personal attacks are duly noted and as I said before, I will just consider the source. I do note however, that your failure to respond to my specific questions speaks volumes.
Have a nice day!
Rick
 
rick48 said:
Jillio,

Your opinions and personal attacks are duly noted and as I said before, I will just consider the source. I do note however, that your failure to respond to my specific questions speaks volumes.
Have a nice day!
Rick
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I do believe that I have responded to the questions posed. The problem appears to be that I have not responded in the way that you wished. If you choose to view that as a personal attack, so be it.
 
I have no problem that someone I do not know nor have never met does not agree with me. I realize that there is no one correct way to raise any child, even a deaf one.

However, since you asked, here is one question that you failed to answer:

"Please show me the post wherein I stated that she is the standard."

Hopefully, since it is technically not in the form of a question as it lacks a question mark, you will still be able to answer it.

"Knowledge is good"
Emil Faber
 
Yes, I can answer it. Your refusal to understand that your daughter has reached a level of acievement that most deaf children don't--don't because they are not capable, bur because they are not being provided oppoertunity in the most condusive environment implies that you do not have a realistic understandingof the problems that continue to face the deaf child and the deaf adult inthis country. Your continual focus on CI as the solution demonstrates that you have a very understanding of the issues. This is based on any number of posts in any number of threads, and your insistence that anyone who voices a limitation of CI is anti CI.
 
jillio said:
Yes, I can answer it. Your refusal to understand that your daughter has reached a level of acievement that most deaf children don't--don't because they are not capable, bur because they are not being provided oppoertunity in the most condusive environment implies that you do not have a realistic understandingof the problems that continue to face the deaf child and the deaf adult inthis country. Your continual focus on CI as the solution demonstrates that you have a very understanding of the issues. This is based on any number of posts in any number of threads, and your insistence that anyone who voices a limitation of CI is anti CI.
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:gpost: :gpost: :gpost:
 
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