Auditory-verbal therapy research claims

jillio said:
Yeah, makes sense. Your daughter's first model was sign supported English, so for her, that is the language spoken at home. She doesn't even think about it, just lapses into it when placed in that environment.

Wow! I think admitting hearing kids into the preschool is great. At St. Rita's. they have the LOFT program (Language Opportunites for Toddlers). They have both deaf and hearing kids, and both deaf and hearing instructors. Some of the kids are siblings of deaf St. Rital students, some are hearing of deaf parents. Some are kids who are enrolled just because they have very open minded parents who want their kids to experience diversity. Any way, the program is hugely successful, and the kids really benefit from the exposure to both languages. Its amazing to watch the deaf and hearing kids interact. They just do whatever is necessary to communicate with each other, and don't divide into hearing/not hearing groups. If left to that kind of environment, they just adapt naturally and it all works out well. Unfortunately, it is too often us adults that find it necessary to divide based on hearing/not hearing or oral/sign and the kids begin to imitate our attitudes and behavior. Good luck wit the preschool. I'll be interested to know what happens.
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That was one of the concerns brought up by the BOT ..if the hearing and deaf kids will form separate groups. So many concerns and ideas being thrown in the air. The open forum is May 2nd...hurrryyy!!!
 
jillio said:
rick48 said:
Wow! Run on sentence! By exception, I mean the oral child who is equally successful when judged by hearing standards on all levels--socially, educationally, emotionally, adjustment, economically, etc.
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Next time I will diagram my sentences first if that makes you feel better.


If those are the standards by which you determine an "exceptional" child, then when you find any kid, deaf or hearing, who satisfies all of that criteria, you will truly have an exceptional child. I think I may have come across one or two such kids in my lifetime.

Those are certainly not the standards I set for either my deaf child or my hearing child, we just chose to give them the opportunities to be the best person they could be.

BTW how much money does an oral deaf teenager have to earn to be considered an economic success? I want my daughter to see if there are any summer CEO jobs still available. Heck, I want both my daughters to find those jobs or at least develop a start-up company that they can sell in a leveraged buy-out by Labor Day!
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rick48 said:
jillio said:
Next time I will diagram my sentences first if that makes you feel better.


If those are the standards by which you determine an "exceptional" child, then when you find any kid, deaf or hearing, who satisfies all of that criteria, you will truly have an exceptional child. I think I may have come across one or two such kids in my lifetime.

Those are certainly not the standards I set for either my deaf child or my hearing child, we just chose to give them the opportunities to be the best person they could be.

BTW how much money does an oral deaf teenager have to earn to be considered an economic success? I want my daughter to see if there are any summer CEO jobs still available. Heck, I want both my daughters to find those jobs or at least develop a start-up company that they can sell in a leveraged buy-out by Labor Day!
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I have a deaf friend whose dream is to be an astronaut . I dont know what happened but he didnt get in some programs so now he is teaching something related to science at an university. He told me that he feels like he wasnt successful even though he has a great paying job and everything.

I dont know about salary..it depends on your daughter's definition of what salary range is considered economic success. Some people see earning a million dollars a year as a success while others see $40K as a success. For me, it is finding the job that I love and enjoy doing is also important. My aunt used to be a top mananger for a computer company..she made so much money but she was never home..always traveling so 5 years ago, she quit her job and is doing consulting. She paid the price cuz she missed out on her daughters' childhood. I am just rambling so dont mind me. :ty:
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jillio said:
Curriculum wasn't mentioned. And the majority of Deaf schools in operation today are held to the same state mandated standards as any other public school. The private Deaf schools often have even higher standards than the public schools.
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but they are classified as Special Education and controlled by Dept of Special Education. Gallaudet is one of them.
 
rick48 said:
jillio said:
Next time I will diagram my sentences first if that makes you feel better.


If those are the standards by which you determine an "exceptional" child, then when you find any kid, deaf or hearing, who satisfies all of that criteria, you will truly have an exceptional child. I think I may have come across one or two such kids in my lifetime.

Those are certainly not the standards I set for either my deaf child or my hearing child, we just chose to give them the opportunities to be the best person they could be.

BTW how much money does an oral deaf teenager have to earn to be considered an economic success? I want my daughter to see if there are any summer CEO jobs still available. Heck, I want both my daughters to find those jobs or at least develop a start-up company that they can sell in a leveraged buy-out by Labor Day!
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If you don't use the standards accepted by the majority poulation for measurment, pray tell, then, how do you measure success? Further, if you are not using standardized measures, then is your assessment valid? No need to diagram your sentences.. But if you are using your standards for grammar to assess your child's standards, then I question how much success she has experienced in acquisition of English skills.
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Boult said:
but they are classified as Special Education and controlled by Dept of Special Education. Gallaudet is one of them.
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We use the public school curriculm and we have to follow it...use the same books and everything. We just present them in a visual manner which is in signing as opposed to speaking. That's the only difference. We have special classes for deaf children with other special needs like MR, LD or whatever where the curriculm is modified but even they get the same concepts taught.

And your point is about special ed? What does the classification have to do with anything as long we the children are being taught with the same standards as the children in the public schools?
 
jillio said:
rick48 said:
Wow! Run on sentence! By exception, I mean the oral child who is equally successful when judged by hearing standards on all levels--socially, educationally, emotionally, adjustment, economically, etc.
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Please reread my statement. To make it a bit simpler, if the standards for reading at a 12th grade level is A for a hearing child, when the deaf child is measured using that standard, then her score is equal to or better than that of her hearing peers and is deemed a success. Therefore, when the score is equal to or better than that of her hearing peers, she is considered to be an exception to the results normally found for orally educated deaf children. More often standards are lowered and scores are maniluplated to indicate success. In other words, the oral deaf child is not functioning as well or better than her hearing peers, she is simply being judged by lowered standards. This propogates the idea that the deaf child's abilites are not as high as the hearing child's because we must lower the standards to identify them as successful.
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shel90 said:
rick48 said:
I have a deaf friend whose dream is to be an astronaut . I dont know what happened but he didnt get in some programs so now he is teaching something related to science at an university. He told me that he feels like he wasnt successful even though he has a great paying job and everything.

I dont know about salary..it depends on your daughter's definition of what salary range is considered economic success. Some people see earning a million dollars a year as a success while others see $40K as a success. For me, it is finding the job that I love and enjoy doing is also important. My aunt used to be a top mananger for a computer company..she made so much money but she was never home..always traveling so 5 years ago, she quit her job and is doing consulting. She paid the price cuz she missed out on her daughters' childhood. I am just rambling so dont mind me. :ty:
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Yeah, I get what you are saying, but I was refering to the more objective standards that we have to use to determine if an oral deaf child and a hearing child the same age and the same grade from he same SES are functioning at exactly the same level. It may appear that they are on the surface, but testing reveals that they aren't, even though they may possess equal intelligence. And then there are the other variables that have to be taken into consideration. And to make it truly valid, we would ahve to look at longitudinal data to see if the difference continue at the same rate or get even greater with time.

Subjective satisfaction vs. objective satisfaction. There are those who have engaged in this discussion that seem to want concrete scientific explanations becasue they think if they keep questioning in a round about matter, they will find a mistake in the data.
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Boult said:
but they are classified as Special Education and controlled by Dept of Special Education. Gallaudet is one of them.
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Wrong! They aren't qualified as special education any more that a Black college is classified as special education.
 
jillio said:
rick48 said:
If you don't use the standards accepted by the majority poulation for measurment, pray tell, then, how do you measure success? Further, if you are not using standardized measures, then is your assessment valid? No need to diagram your sentences.. But if you are using your standards for grammar to assess your child's standards, then I question how much success she has experienced in acquisition of English skills.
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I think if you re-read Shel's response, it is right on point. I do not measure success for either of my children against "standardized measures". I view it in terms of their respective abilities.

However, since you are using the "standards accepted by the majority population for measurment" pray tell answer my question and state what is the income level a teenager must earn to be determined an economic success? After all, it is one of the criteria you chose for determining whether an oral deaf child is an "exception" to the rule. You should know it.

Since my daughter is a Dean's list student in college, I guess she's doing ok, or at least she takes after my wife. You do not have to worry about her, she will do fine. BTW it should read "...has experienced in [the] acquisiton of English skills." So I hope you do not use yourself as the standard either.
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shel90 said:
rick48 said:
I dont know about salary..it depends on your daughter's definition of what salary range is considered economic success. Some people see earning a million dollars a year as a success while others see $40K as a success. For me, it is finding the job that I love and enjoy doing is also important. My aunt used to be a top mananger for a computer company..she made so much money but she was never home..always traveling so 5 years ago, she quit her job and is doing consulting. She paid the price cuz she missed out on her daughters' childhood. I am just rambling so dont mind me. :ty:
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Shel,

You are not rambling but making perfect sense.
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Ok..I am seeing that in many of the parents' threads that their children are fine. What about those deaf children who couldnt pick up on spoken language and struggling in school especially in reading and writing? This issue has nothing to do with the cultural or medical model. It is just a plain sad fact.
 
rick48 said:
jillio said:
I think if you re-read Shel's response, it is right on point. I do not measure success for either of my children against "standardized measures". I view it in terms of their respective abilities.

However, since you are using the "standards accepted by the majority population for measurment" pray tell answer my question and state what is the income level a teenager must earn to be determined an economic success? After all, it is one of the criteria you chose for determining whether an oral deaf child is an "exception" to the rule. You should know it.

Since my daughter is a Dean's list student in college, I guess she's doing ok, or at least she takes after my wife. You do not have to worry about her, she will do fine. BTW it should read "...has experienced in [the] acquisiton of English skills." So I hope you do not use yourself as the standard either.
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I don't worry about your daughter. I worry about the numerous deaf children who don't happen to have been given some of the advantages out there that your daughter has been given. And the problem with you measuring your child's success is that you are using subjective standards that cannot be generalized to an entire population of deaf kids. It is simply anecdotal evidence. When shel and I discuss reading levels and educational methods, we are basing our information on accepted research done with large samples, not one persons biased opinion. For you to hold your daughter's success up as the standard for all parents of all deaf children is simply egotistical. You ignore the fact that there are still problems in the education and the socilization of numerous deaf children not only in the US, but all over the world. The issue is much bigger than your own little back yard.
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jillio said:
rick48 said:
I don't worry about your daughter. I worry about the numerous deaf children who don't happen to have been given some of the advantages out there that your daughter has been given. And the problem with you measuring your child's success is that you are using subjective standards that cannot be generalized to an entire population of deaf kids. It is simply anecdotal evidence. When shel and I discuss reading levels and educational methods, we are basing our information on accepted research done with large samples, not one persons biased opinion. For you to hold your daughter's success up as the standard for all parents of all deaf children is simply egotistical. You ignore the fact that there are still problems in the education and the socilization of numerous deaf children not only in the US, but all over the world. The issue is much bigger than your own little back yard.
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Exactly! By sharing my experiences personally and professionally, I am hoping I will reach out to parents so they can keep them in mind and gain some understanding of the issues their children may face. If your children dont have those issues..great but there are many more deaf people both children and adults with serious issues and I am here for them. I dont see many of you showing epathy for those who suffered. It is all about YOUR children and how well they are doing...GREAT but that doesnt mean the problem is gone (referring to what's happening out there). :ugh3:
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:gpost:
shel90 said:
jillio said:
Exactly! By sharing my experiences personally and professionally, I am hoping I will reach out to parents so they can keep them in mind and gain some understanding of the issues their children may face. If your children dont have those issues..great but there are many more deaf people both children and adults with serious issues and I am here for them. I dont see many of you showing epathy for those who suffered. It is all about YOUR children and how well they are doing...GREAT but that doesnt mean the problem is gone (referring to what's happening out there). :ugh3:
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"For you to hold your daughter's success up as the standard for all parents of all deaf children is simply egotistical."

You know, I am simply not going to let you post a lie and get away with it.

I have never, ever used my daughter as the standard for all parents of all deaf children and you know that. Why you need to lie about it is troubling. Please show me the post wherein I stated that she is the standard.

I know too well the time, effort and devotion that goes into raising a deaf child, especially one with a ci. I know too well that despite all that time, effort, devotion and love, results vary. I know too well that we have been blessed to have our daughter do as well as she has.

I have been involved in the ci community for nearly two decades and have spoken to many parents considering the ci, I have written articles and spoken at seminars and conventions and not once have I ever said to anyone that if you get a ci then this is what will happen and certainly never that your child will achieve the same success with her ci as my daughter has.

But yes, I have encountered people who say that a child with a ci cannot (fill in the blank, there are so many) and when appropriate have said that is not true because my daughter can or does.

I do not care if you insult my grammar, spelling or intelligence nor do I care that you need to label me as defensive or insecure in order to make your points. I am a big boy and I also consider the source. However, do not make things up about me and especially my daughter.
 
rick48 said:
"For you to hold your daughter's success up as the standard for all parents of all deaf children is simply egotistical."

You know, I am simply not going to let you post a lie and get away with it.

I have never, ever used my daughter as the standard for all parents of all deaf children and you know that. Why you need to lie about it is troubling. Please show me the post wherein I stated that she is the standard.

I know too well the time, effort and devotion that goes into raising a deaf child, especially one with a ci. I know too well that despite all that time, effort, devotion and love, results vary. I know too well that we have been blessed to have our daughter do as well as she has.

I have been involved in the ci community for nearly two decades and have spoken to many parents considering the ci, I have written articles and spoken at seminars and conventions and not once have I ever said to anyone that if you get a ci then this is what will happen and certainly never that your child will achieve the same success with her ci as my daughter has.

But yes, I have encountered people who say that a child with a ci cannot (fill in the blank, there are so many) and when appropriate have said that is not true because my daughter can or does.

I do not care if you insult my grammar, spelling or intelligence nor do I care that you need to label me as defensive or insecure in order to make your points. I am a big boy and I also consider the source. However, do not make things up about me and especially my daughter.
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+1

and to give you idea of other thread that went ugly like this thread eh
http://www.alldeaf.com/deaf-education/35027-breaking-code.html
 
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