A Law Review of Cued Speech in Educational Settings

[flip]

That doesn't explain it fully. Are you against NCSA as a whole? Their philosophy? The roles? Etc... You are not making it clear in all this.

If you really are interested in this, this thread will explain everything you don't get here:
http://www.alldeaf.com/hearing-aids-cochlear-implants/47663-sun-earth-cued-speech.html

There are other similar threads in the archive, but much of it is the same.

NCSA says this straight out:
http://www.cuedspeech.org/PDF/CS_why_is_it_important.pdf
"Students who use a sign system or ASL struggle with connecting the signs to printed words."

 

[flip]

http://www.alldeaf.com/deaf-educati...-speech-educational-settings.html#post1580931

So, you admit to personally attacking F_J?

*sweating in front of a strong headlamp, smoking his last cigarette, while koknut interrogates flip*

-No I didn't! I swear!

 

[kokonut]

AGBell's letter regarding the Pepsi commercial:

http://listenandtalk.org/uploads/Pepsi3ltr.pdf

Not exactly sure how they were "over the line" other than pointing out that people with hearing loss do not mean they know sign language. Hence, the perpetuation of a myth that all deaf and hard of hearing people know sign language. Not so.

We trust you understand that deaf and hard of hearing individuals are a diverse group and therefore do not fit into a single, distinct culture. Your advertisement perpetuates a common myth that all people who are deaf can only communicate using sign language and are, therefore, isolated from the rest of society. In fact, today’s hearing technology, coupled with early screening identification and intervention, has led to incredible advances in listening and spoken language skill development. Of the more than 30 million Americans who live with hearing loss, the majority use spoken language as their primary mode of communication.

 

[flip]

AGBell's letter regarding the Pepsi commercial:

http://listenandtalk.org/uploads/Pepsi3ltr.pdf

Not exactly sure how they were "over the line" other than pointing out that people with hearing loss do not mean they know sign language. Hence, the perpetuation of a myth that all deaf and hard of hearing people know sign language. Not so.

So what is Pepsi then supposed to do? How can they please AG Bell?

 

[faire_jour]

So what is Pepsi then supposed to do? How can they please AG Bell?

Dunno, but, honestly, at least they stopped there. They didn't demand an apology, or tell oral deaf supporters to boycot and picket against Pepsi. They wrote a letter than they believed informed and educated, and then left it at that.

 

[A]

If a deaf person who have never used cued speech and tries to learn it, he will have trouble with it. I see deaf people learn ASL very late in life all the time, but I am not sure if they learn cue speech. I tried learning it and I struggle to figure out which hand shape to use because I can't hear the sounds correctly. I was constantly guessing without confident if it is the correct handshape. If I wanted to play the guessing game, I'll just stick with speechreading. It is great for deaf with hearing people if they start out young though. And I think it would great for poetry and such if you want people to visualize sounds.

because of this, I'm afraid it will be hard for cuers to gain newcomer older deaf people.

 

[flip]

Dunno, but, honestly, at least they stopped there. They didn't demand an apology, or tell oral deaf supporters to boycot and picket against Pepsi. They wrote a letter than they believed informed and educated, and then left it at that.

They didn't have a choice I guess, after the rage from the deaf community over that letter. But I agree with you that they crossed a line there.

 

[faire_jour]

They didn't have a choice I guess, after the rage from the deaf community over that letter. But I agree with you that they crossed a line there.

I disagree. I think they had a choice, and they believed that the letter did exactly what it was intended to do. I do not think that they were advocating against ASL, but that they believed they were trying to spread "the good news", to people who didn't know.

 

[flip]

I disagree. I think they had a choice, and they believed that the letter did exactly what it was intended to do. I do not think that they were advocating against ASL, but that they believed they were trying to spread "the good news", to people who didn't know.

Then please elaborate what you mean with "I think that was over the line and wrong."

 

[Berry]

This post by loml is telling.
http://www.alldeaf.com/hearing-aids...earing-parents-positive-story.html#post546404

"I struggle with the entire "ASL natural language" business, it is "natural" for humans to voice. The "deaf culture stuff": children belong with their family culture."

Is it now?

I would say it is natural for humans to do what children do naturally.

One thing children do naturally is verbalize in "non acceptable" childish ways. For instance they will say "He gone a loooooooooooong time." when they mean he was gone for an extremely long period of time. It is considered cute but children are discouraged from doing this as hearing people make the words do the work, not the tone of voice, expressions, or other vocal trick.

Another is to use their face, hands, body, and movement to express things. Once again this is considered cute when children are young, but this natural tendency is discouraged because in the hearing culture words, not actions, are expected to carry the entire weight of the communication, not "body language."

Having watched a lot of hearing children grow up I would say the precepts ASL is built on is just as natural to humans as the precepts spoken language is built upon.

The difference is speaking people often reject nonverbal communication for lousy reasons making it unnecessarily difficult for deaf people who find verbalizing difficult to begin with.

If ASL precepts are as natural to hearing children as speaking, then how can ASL not be the "natural language" of Deaf Americans?

 

[faire_jour]

Then please elaborate what you mean with "I think that was over the line and wrong."

Well, I had not read the letter since the whole incident happened over two years ago. In fact, I'm not sure that I had ever actually read the letter in it's entirety until just now when Kokonut posted the link. I think that they believed what they were doing was right. They have a perspective in which they believe that deaf people are portrayed as using sign language exclusivly in the media. They believed this was an opportunity to highlight that many people with a hearing loss listen and speak. I think it was not the right opportunity to do that. I think it was a commerical that was very positive for the Deaf community and introduced ASL and Deaf culture to the masses. I think it was a poorly chosen time to advance their agenda.

BUT, I think that the letter that DBC sent was worse. They chose to attack AG Bell. AG Bell's letter was not ideal, and in my belief, a bad move. DBC was just bad.

lettertopepsi.jpg (image)

 

[faire_jour]

Is it now?

I would say it is natural for humans to do what children do naturally.

One thing children do naturally is verbalize in "non acceptable" childish ways. For instance they will say "He gone a loooooooooooong time." when they mean he was gone for an extremely long period of time. It is considered cute but children are discouraged from doing this as hearing people make the words do the work, not the tone of voice, expressions, or other vocal trick.

Another is to use their face, hands, body, and movement to express things. Once again this is considered cute when children are young, but this natural tendency is discouraged because in the hearing culture words, not actions, are expected to carry the entire weight of the communication, not "body language."

Having watched a lot of hearing children grow up I would say the precepts ASL is built on is just as natural to humans as the precepts spoken language is built upon.

The difference is speaking people often reject nonverbal communication for lousy reasons making it unnecessarily difficult for deaf people who find verbalizing difficult to begin with.

If ASL precepts are as natural to hearing children as speaking, then how can ASL not be the "natural language" of Deaf Americans?

I don't believe there is "a natural language" for anyone. My native language is English, because I was raised in a home that used English. If I had been kidnapped and raised in Germany, my "natural language" would have been German. There is no such thing as a "natural language".

 

[A]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCXAUATESfE&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - Mini-lecture: The truth about sign language[/ame] <---- natural of sign language

 

[kokonut]

If you really are interested in this, this thread will explain everything you don't get here:
http://www.alldeaf.com/hearing-aids-cochlear-implants/47663-sun-earth-cued-speech.html

There are other similar threads in the archive, but much of it is the same.

NCSA says this straight out:
http://www.cuedspeech.org/PDF/CS_why_is_it_important.pdf
"Students who use a sign system or ASL struggle with connecting the signs to printed words."

You haven't answered my basic question. Are you against NCSA? Are you against Cued Speech? Or are you against how C.S. is used? Exactly what is it are you against? It's not being made clear here is what I'm trying to get at.

 

[flip]

I don't believe there is "a natural language" for anyone. My native language is English, because I was raised in a home that used English. If I had been kidnapped and raised in Germany, my "natural language" would have been German. There is no such thing as a "natural language".

Do you mind telling that to Loml and his NCSA?

 

[kokonut]

If a deaf person who have never used cued speech and tries to learn it, he will have trouble with it. I see deaf people learn ASL very late in life all the time, but I am not sure if they learn cue speech. I tried learning it and I struggle to figure out which hand shape to use because I can't hear the sounds correctly. I was constantly guessing without confident if it is the correct handshape. If I wanted to play the guessing game, I'll just stick with speechreading. It is great for deaf with hearing people if they start out young though. And I think it would great for poetry and such if you want people to visualize sounds.

because of this, I'm afraid it will be hard for cuers to gain newcomer older deaf people.

You'll have to discuss that with Netrox. Adults can learn cued speech since it's based on using "eight handshapes in four positions near the mouth in combination with the lipshapes and articulation movements of speech." That's 32 different combinations between handshape and position of it. Not many compared to the breadth of ASL.
http://www.cuedspeech.org/sub/cued/default.asp

 

[flip]

You haven't answered my basic question. Are you against NCSA? Are you against Cued Speech? Or are you against how C.S. is used? Exactly what is it are you against? It's not being made clear here is what I'm trying to get at.

Koknut, READ THE LINK I GAVE YOU. Everything is there, all you want to know, all my opinions. If that's too hard for you, then I can't imagine how I can help you.

 

[A]

I don't need to talk to him. Like I said, I feel like I'm constantly guessing.. I can't even pronounce my words correctly in spoken language. They say you should cue exactly how you speak, how am I suppose to do that if I don't know how to pronounce a word? I tried, I just don't think it will gain popularity among late comers. Maybe some, but not alot.

 

[flip]

You'll have to discuss that with Netrox. Adults can learn cued speech since it's based on using "eight handshapes in four positions near the mouth in combination with the lipshapes and articulation movements of speech." That's 32 different combinations between handshape and position of it. Not many compared to the breadth of ASL.
CUEDSPEECH.org > Cued Speech > Cued Speech Index

A is making a point here, about a well known problem with cued speech. You sound like someone that don't know anything about cueing and try to enage into a debate about it. LOL

 

[flip]

I don't need to talk to him. Like I said, I feel like I'm constantly guessing.. I can't even pronounce my words correctly in spoken language. I tried, I just don't think it will gain popularity among late comers. Maybe some, but not alot.

I neither understand why you have to discuss this with a Netrox. Like you have to ask for permisson to make personal observations, heh.