Old Testament vs New Testament

[Reba]

China:

...Human Rights in China (HRIC), in a recently released statement, reported that the chief rationale behind the adoption of new regulations—“to deal with new situations and issues that have emerged in recent years with China's rapid socioeconomic development”—indicates that the Chinese central government has again drafted a document not to protect, but to regulate all religious activities.

“Since the late 1970s China has allowed believers greater latitude for worship, but in exchange for accepting a regulatory structure designed to limit clergy autonomy and stifle congregational growth,” the organization wrote in the Mar. 14 statement.

HRIC said the principal mechanism through which the state maintains its control continues to be prior government approval—a system of “registration”—for the establishment of any religious group or place of worship. In light of this complete state control, the system effectively nullifies freedom of religion, as any unregistered group, site, or activity is “illegal”.

The new regulations aim to “further standardize the registration system for the establishment of a religious body or site for religious activities," perpetuating and strengthening the existing system.

Chan Kim-kwong, a China expert at the Hong Kong Christian Council, told the Agence-France Presse in December that "For those which are not registered, Chinese government's dismissal of them in terms of banning or punishment will be stepped up."

"These groups will have even less room for survival," he added. "When the grey areas have gone and if you're not registered, you won't be in the game anymore."

HRIC reported that “a detailed analysis of the provisions clearly indicates that there has been no paradigm shift in the administration of religion, but rather a continuation of the classic pattern of state-controlled religion."

The agency also noted that the regulatory devices that have been used in the suppression of legitimate religious activities in the past remain in the current regulations. These devices include:

1) mandatory prior registration;
2) patriotic character of the clergy; and
3) protection of national and public order and prohibition of religious extremism.

On these grounds, the HRIC reports that authorities continue to:

1) routinely arrest and detain religious figures or parishioners;
2) cancel the registration of religious groups;
3) close religious venues;
4) oversee overhaul religious personnel;
5) impose administrative punishment (including fines and short-term detention);
6) administrative harassment; and
7) impose restrictions on religious personnel movements, contacts, visits and correspondence.

In its conclusion, the HRIC said it appeared that the premise for the Chinese government to adopt this new set of regulations was not based on the desire to make freedom of religion available to its citizens, but was “motivated by its overarching need to regulate freedom of association in the name of national security and public order.”
http://www.christianpost.com/articl...ment_on_China's_New_Religious_Regulations.htm

 

[xentar]

Nope, even though I was just a toddler when he died.

Then don't let your ignorance get in the way. Start reading up.

Just "usually", not always?

Replace usually with always. A small oversight on my part.

If that were the case, why didn't they just establish a new state religion that would have even a tighter control then abolishing religion completely? Why not use an infrastructure and hierarchy that was already in place? Why did they call themselves atheist states?

Yes, it was atheists attempting to control the human spirit.

Did you read any of the links I gave you? They didn't abolish religion completely. Religion was still being practiced. And in russia's case tried to put KGB as priests, etc. And Hitler is a good example of actually trying to establish a new state religion.

Please Please Please read more before you ask questions.

 

[xentar]

China: indicates that the Chinese central government has again drafted a document not to protect, but to regulate all religious activities.

Hey look, another political agenda. Chinese central government isn't Atheist. It's a political government, and its agenda is to regulate religion.


....why the heck did you post another one in the same context as your previous posts? You're only solidifying my points here.

 

[Reba]

... I'll name one you're already familiar but probably forgot. The Spanish Inquisition....

No, I haven't forgotten the Spanish Inquisition; I've made several posts about it in the past. What's your point? I never denied that some religious organizations started wars or persecutions.

From a website that seems to be popular here:

"The Spanish Inquisition was an institution that had precedents in other Inquisitions. The reconquest of Spain from the Moors resulted in a relatively peaceful multi-religious society, but violent anti-Judaism ensued and Jews converted en masse to the Catholic faith. Some of these conversos were suspected of not being sincere converts and the Alhambra Decree in 1492 ordered all Jews to leave their kingdoms, making about 40,000 Jews leave. Various motives have been proposed for the monarch to start the Inquisition, such as increased political authority, weakening opposition, doing away with conversos and sheer profit."
Spanish Inquisition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Boult]

Reba, I guess you can't shoot this one down..

Crusades - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[xentar]

oh snap

 

[Reba]

Replace usually with always. A small oversight on my part.

Small oversight? Or Freudian slip. :hmm;

... They didn't abolish religion completely. Religion was still being practiced. And in russia's case tried to put KGB as priests, etc. And Hitler is a good example of actually trying to establish a new state religion....

During some periods there was complete abolishment of religion. Some governments allowed state-controlled "churches" that were churches in name only; they were still under atheist government control.

 

[Reba]

Reba, I guess you can't shoot this one down..

Crusades - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I've made posts about the Crusades before. What do you expect me to say? I've never supported any papal wars. What else is new? I've never denied that some religious organizations have initiated wars. So?

 

[xentar]

Small oversight? Or Freudian slip. :hmm;

Oh get over it already. Enough with the strawman argument.

During some periods there was complete abolishment of religion. Some governments allowed state-controlled "churches" that were churches in name only; they were still under atheist government control.

Ok so all you've proven here is that the government can use atheism for its own political agenda. The government tried persecuting its own people.

But you have yet to prove any wars were started over atheism beliefs. So far, it's only been over clashes of religious differences that created wars.

 

[Reba]

Hey look, another political agenda. Chinese central government isn't Atheist. It's a political government, and its agenda is to regulate religion.

They aren't atheist? I'm sure that will be news to them. :roll:

...why the heck did you post another one in the same context as your previous posts? You're only solidifying my points here.

Dream on.

 

[Boult]

I've made posts about the Crusades before. What do you expect me to say? I've never supported any papal wars. What else is new? I've never denied that some religious organizations have initiated wars. So?

because you asked xentar a question(your post #319) and I provided this link to you for xentar

 

[xentar]

oh snap

 

[Gamer12]

ok i guess i'll join and post the history of christians killing people in the name of christianity.

allow me to start with jews -

• Already in the 4th and 5th centuries synagogues were burned by Christians. Number of Jews slain unknown.

• In the middle of the fourth century the first synagogue was destroyed on command of bishop Innocentius of Dertona in Northern Italy. The first synagogue known to have been burned down was near the river Euphrat, on command of the bishop of Kallinikon in the year 388. [DA450]

• 17. Council of Toledo 694: Jews were enslaved, their property confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized. [DA454]

• The Bishop of Limoges (France) in 1010 had the cities' Jews, who would not convert to Christianity, expelled or killed. [DA453]

• First Crusade: Thousands of Jews slaughtered 1096, maybe 12.000 total. Places: Worms 5/18/1096, Mainz 5/27/1096 (1100 persons), Cologne, Neuss, Altenahr, Wevelinghoven, Xanten, Moers, Dortmund, Kerpen, Trier, Metz, Regensburg, Prag and others (All locations Germany except Metz/France, Prag/Czech) [EJ]

• Second Crusade: 1147. Several hundred Jews were slain in Ham, Sully, Carentan, and Rameru (all locations in France). [WW57]

• Third Crusade: English Jewish communities sacked 1189/90. [DO40]

• Fulda/Germany 1235: 34 Jewish men and women slain. [DO41]

• 1257, 1267: Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated. [DO41]

• 1290 in Bohemian (Poland) allegedly 10,000 Jews killed. [DO41]

• 1337 Starting in Deggendorf/Germany a Jew-killing craze reaches 51 towns in Bavaria, Austria, Poland. [DO41]

• 1348 All Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France (two thousand) burned. [DO41]

• 1349 In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). [DO42]

• 1389 In Prag 3,000 Jews were slaughtered. [DO42]

• 1391 Seville's Jews killed (Archbishop Martinez leading). 4,000 were slain, 25,000 sold as slaves. [DA454] Their identification was made easy by the brightly colored "badges of shame" that all jews above the age of ten had been forced to wear.

• 1492: In the year Columbus set sail to conquer a New World, more than 150,000 Jews were expelled from Spain, many died on their way: 6/30/1492. [MM470-476]

• 1648 Chmielnitzki massacres: In Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain. [DO43]

(I feel sick ...) this goes on and on, century after century, right into the kilns of Auschwitz.

likewise i feel sick when i read the list.

cheri - Can you believe there's so much hate everywhere even in people? We eventually do live in a crazy world.

i can't believe it either. why does many christians hate jews so much? i don't know why.

Mission

• Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]

• Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain 5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]

• Battle of Belgrad 1456: 80,000 Turks slaughtered. [DO235]

• 15th century Poland: 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by Knights of the Order. Victims unknown. [DO30]

• 16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized" Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde".
• Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99, 225]

Ancient Pagans

• As soon as Christianity was legal (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.

• Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.

• Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.

• Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468]

• Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]

• Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469] According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."

• In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.

• In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]

• The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.[DO19-25]

so much hate. i cannot take it any more. i give you the link so read it.

 

[xentar]

Not that I'm giddy in saying this but, it's only the tip of the iceberg. It's truly is sickening reading all that.

 

[Reba]

...But you have yet to prove any wars were started over atheism beliefs. So far, it's only been over clashes of religious differences that created wars.

What are "atheism beliefs"?

Aren't all wars "clashes" of beliefs, and struggles for power or independence?

Let me remind you of your original statement:

I can't remember the last time Atheists started a war, commited a hate crime, or discriminated against someone because they are different.

I have provided historical evidence for all of those points.

1. atheists have started wars

2. atheists have committed hate crimes

3. atheists have discriminated against people



Bottom line:

Both atheists and religionists have:

1. started wars

2. committed hate crimes

3. discriminated against people


Time to move on.

 

[Reba]

...why does many christians hate jews so much? i don't know why....

Real Christians love and help the Jews.

 

[xentar]

This needs to be repeated

Individual atheists may do evil things but they don't do evil things in the name of atheism.

Stalin did extremely evil things, in the name of, respectively, dogmatic and doctrinaire Marxism, and an insane and unscientific eugenics theory tinged with sub-Wagnerian ravings.

Religious wars really are fought in the name of religion, and they have been horribly frequent in history.

I cannot think of any war that has been fought in the name of atheism.

You're mixing up the points here. It's not about who started wars.

It's about why wars were started.

 

[Gamer12]

Real Christians love and help the Jews.

i love this part. every time someone gives away the facts about christians killing people in the name of christianity and the comeback we always got - they're not real christians.

but ok i'll take your words for it.

 

[Reba]

You're mixing up the points here. It's not about who started wars.

It's about why wars were started.

OK.

Q. Why did Marxists (in Soviet Union, China, Cuba) start wars?

A. To spread Marxism. Marxism is an atheist philosophy.

 

[Reba]

i love this part. every time someone gives away the facts about christians killing people in the name of christianity and the comeback we always got - they're not real christians.

but ok i'll take your words for it.

Their very doctrines betray them as not real Christians. They trust in works for salvation, and then follow a hierarchy of religious leaders who mix it up with political leaders. They disrespect and persecute God's Chosen People, the Jews. They try to force conversion. All of those things are against Christian theology and practice.

If a "duck" doesn't look like a duck, doesn't act like a duck, and doesn't quack like a duck, it isn't a duck. It can wear a duck mask, and paint the word "duck" on its chest but it still isn't a duck.