Declaration of Occupy Wall Street

[jillio]

The all time low was 13% last month in Gallup's history and Gallup has been polling stuff like this since 1936. I don't put much stock in polls but that even that should tell you and me something!

Agreed. Polls are a snapshot of a moment in time and are limited to the people polled. Therefore, they are not really generalizable unless one has managed to obtain a representative population in the respondants. That is possible if you have a large enough sample, which Gallup tends to do. However, they are not predictive int he least, and that is what you will usually see people trying to use polls for around here.

What it does show is an increase over the last poll. What it does show is that at that moment in time, a large majority of the population polled was not in favor of incumbents being put back in office. So polls have their purpose. People just tend to try to use them outside that purpose, and that is when they are not valid or reliable measurements. To sample opinion like this, without trying to attribute predicitive value, they are reasonably valid and reliable.

 

[DeafCaroline]

I believe someone called it wishful thinking when I said OWS is having an impact...

Occupy Harvard Mars Recruiting by Goldman - Bloomberg

Top GOP Strategist Admits Occupy Wall Street Is Working | Care2 Causes

How Republicans are being taught to talk about Occupy Wall Street | The Ticket - Yahoo! News
ORLANDO, Fla. -- The Republican Governors Association met this week in Florida to give GOP state executives a chance to rejuvenate, strategize and team-build. But during a plenary session on Wednesday, one question kept coming up: How can Republicans do a better job of talking about Occupy Wall Street?
"I'm so scared of this anti-Wall Street effort. I'm frightened to death," said Frank Luntz, a Republican strategist and one of the nation's foremost experts on crafting the perfect political message. "They're having an impact on what the American people think of capitalism."
Luntz offered tips on how Republicans could discuss the grievances of the Occupiers, and help the governors better handle all these new questions from constituents about "income inequality" and "paying your fair share."
Yahoo News sat in on the session, and counted 10 do's and don'ts from Luntz covering how Republicans should fight back by changing the way they discuss the movement.
1. Don't say 'capitalism.'
"I'm trying to get that word removed and we're replacing it with either 'economic freedom' or 'free market,' " Luntz said. "The public . . . still prefers capitalism to socialism, but they think capitalism is immoral. And if we're seen as defenders of quote, Wall Street, end quote, we've got a problem."
2. Don't say that the government 'taxes the rich.' Instead, tell them that the government 'takes from the rich.'
"If you talk about raising taxes on the rich," the public responds favorably, Luntz cautioned. But "if you talk about government taking the money from hardworking Americans, the public says no. Taxing, the public will say yes."
3. Republicans should forget about winning the battle over the 'middle class.' Call them 'hardworking taxpayers.'
"They cannot win if the fight is on hardworking taxpayers. We can say we defend the 'middle class' and the public will say, I'm not sure about that. But defending 'hardworking taxpayers' and Republicans have the advantage."
4. Don't talk about 'jobs.' Talk about 'careers.'
"Everyone in this room talks about 'jobs,'" Luntz said. "Watch this."
He then asked everyone to raise their hand if they want a "job." Few hands went up. Then he asked who wants a "career." Almost every hand was raised.
"So why are we talking about jobs?"
5. Don't say 'government spending.' Call it 'waste.'
"It's not about 'government spending.' It's about 'waste.' That's what makes people angry."
6. Don't ever say you're willing to 'compromise.'
"If you talk about 'compromise,' they'll say you're selling out. Your side doesn't want you to 'compromise.' What you use in that to replace it with is 'cooperation.' It means the same thing. But cooperation means you stick to your principles but still get the job done. Compromise says that you're selling out those principles."
7. The three most important words you can say to an Occupier: 'I get it.'
"First off, here are three words for you all: 'I get it.' . . . 'I get that you're angry. I get that you've seen inequality. I get that you want to fix the system."
Then, he instructed, offer Republican solutions to the problem.
8. Out: 'Entrepreneur.' In: 'Job creator.'
Use the phrases "small business owners" and "job creators" instead of "entrepreneurs" and "innovators."
9. Don't ever ask anyone to 'sacrifice.'
"There isn't an American today in November of 2011 who doesn't think they've already sacrificed. If you tell them you want them to 'sacrifice,' they're going to be be pretty angry at you. You talk about how 'we're all in this together.' We either succeed together or we fail together."
10. Always blame Washington.
Tell them, "You shouldn't be occupying Wall Street, you should be occupying Washington. You should occupy the White House because it's the policies over the past few years that have created this problem."
BONUS:
Don't say 'bonus!'
Luntz advised that if they give their employees an income boost during the holiday season, they should never refer to it as a "bonus."
"If you give out a bonus at a time of financial hardship, you're going to make people angry. It's 'pay for performance.'

 

[Beowulf]

Agreed. Polls are a snapshot of a moment in time and are limited to the people polled. Therefore, they are not really generalizable unless one has managed to obtain a representative population in the respondants. That is possible if you have a large enough sample, which Gallup tends to do. However, they are not predictive int he least, and that is what you will usually see people trying to use polls for around here.

What it does show is an increase over the last poll. What it does show is that at that moment in time, a large majority of the population polled was not in favor of incumbents being put back in office. So polls have their purpose. People just tend to try to use them outside that purpose, and that is when they are not valid or reliable measurements. To sample opinion like this, without trying to attribute predicitive value, they are reasonably valid and reliable.

I have never been asked a poll question. Have you? Has anyone in here? Did you notice that in the last three Presidential elections, the polls show 52% to 54% of the public favoring the incumbent? Always, always, always?
Phooey.

 

[deafskeptic]

I have never been asked a poll question. Have you? Has anyone in here? Did you notice that in the last three Presidential elections, the polls show 52% to 54% of the public favoring the incumbent? Always, always, always?
Phooey.

Now there's food for thought. I've never been asked a poll question.

 

[deafskeptic]

I believe someone called it wishful thinking when I said OWS is having an impact...

Occupy Harvard Mars Recruiting by Goldman - Bloomberg

Top GOP Strategist Admits Occupy Wall Street Is Working | Care2 Causes

How Republicans are being taught to talk about Occupy Wall Street | The Ticket - Yahoo! News
ORLANDO, Fla. -- The Republican Governors Association met this week in Florida to give GOP state executives a chance to rejuvenate, strategize and team-build. But during a plenary session on Wednesday, one question kept coming up: How can Republicans do a better job of talking about Occupy Wall Street?
"I'm so scared of this anti-Wall Street effort. I'm frightened to death," said Frank Luntz, a Republican strategist and one of the nation's foremost experts on crafting the perfect political message. "They're having an impact on what the American people think of capitalism."
Luntz offered tips on how Republicans could discuss the grievances of the Occupiers, and help the governors better handle all these new questions from constituents about "income inequality" and "paying your fair share."
Yahoo News sat in on the session, and counted 10 do's and don'ts from Luntz covering how Republicans should fight back by changing the way they discuss the movement.
1. Don't say 'capitalism.'
"I'm trying to get that word removed and we're replacing it with either 'economic freedom' or 'free market,' " Luntz said. "The public . . . still prefers capitalism to socialism, but they think capitalism is immoral. And if we're seen as defenders of quote, Wall Street, end quote, we've got a problem."
2. Don't say that the government 'taxes the rich.' Instead, tell them that the government 'takes from the rich.'
"If you talk about raising taxes on the rich," the public responds favorably, Luntz cautioned. But "if you talk about government taking the money from hardworking Americans, the public says no. Taxing, the public will say yes."
3. Republicans should forget about winning the battle over the 'middle class.' Call them 'hardworking taxpayers.'
"They cannot win if the fight is on hardworking taxpayers. We can say we defend the 'middle class' and the public will say, I'm not sure about that. But defending 'hardworking taxpayers' and Republicans have the advantage."
4. Don't talk about 'jobs.' Talk about 'careers.'
"Everyone in this room talks about 'jobs,'" Luntz said. "Watch this."
He then asked everyone to raise their hand if they want a "job." Few hands went up. Then he asked who wants a "career." Almost every hand was raised.
"So why are we talking about jobs?"
5. Don't say 'government spending.' Call it 'waste.'
"It's not about 'government spending.' It's about 'waste.' That's what makes people angry."
6. Don't ever say you're willing to 'compromise.'
"If you talk about 'compromise,' they'll say you're selling out. Your side doesn't want you to 'compromise.' What you use in that to replace it with is 'cooperation.' It means the same thing. But cooperation means you stick to your principles but still get the job done. Compromise says that you're selling out those principles."
7. The three most important words you can say to an Occupier: 'I get it.'
"First off, here are three words for you all: 'I get it.' . . . 'I get that you're angry. I get that you've seen inequality. I get that you want to fix the system."
Then, he instructed, offer Republican solutions to the problem.
8. Out: 'Entrepreneur.' In: 'Job creator.'
Use the phrases "small business owners" and "job creators" instead of "entrepreneurs" and "innovators."
9. Don't ever ask anyone to 'sacrifice.'
"There isn't an American today in November of 2011 who doesn't think they've already sacrificed. If you tell them you want them to 'sacrifice,' they're going to be be pretty angry at you. You talk about how 'we're all in this together.' We either succeed together or we fail together."
10. Always blame Washington.
Tell them, "You shouldn't be occupying Wall Street, you should be occupying Washington. You should occupy the White House because it's the policies over the past few years that have created this problem."
BONUS:
Don't say 'bonus!'
Luntz advised that if they give their employees an income boost during the holiday season, they should never refer to it as a "bonus."
"If you give out a bonus at a time of financial hardship, you're going to make people angry. It's 'pay for performance.'

George Orwell anybody?

 

[VacationGuy234]

76% of registered voters say most members of Congress should not be re-elected. Looks like the people have had enough.

This is a noble thought, but what are the alternatives to this? You only get three choices. I'd be all for it if you could tell me an alternative. How can you hire a non-politician to do an political job?

And, how could that alternative operate in a different way without a complete rewrite of how our political system works? Unfortunately, changing a representative isn't going to change how a new representative acts because he has to act the same way, it's built into our system.

There's a bunch of money and everyone wants it, that's how it works.

 

[DeafCaroline]

This is a noble thought, but what are the alternatives to this? You only get three choices. I'd be all for it if you could tell me an alternative. How can you hire a non-politician to do an political job?

And, how could that alternative operate in a different way without a complete rewrite of how our political system works? Unfortunately, changing a representative isn't going to change how a new representative acts because he has to act the same way, it's built into our system.

There's a bunch of money and everyone wants it, that's how it works.

All this poll states is that the majority believes that most of current congressmen should be not re-elected...for whatever reasons. Do you think that's how it should work, that politicians make decisions based on fundings from corporations? American citizens can demand change if they want to...it doesn't have to be this way but it will if no one writes to their senator or congressmen and voice their concerns. Politicians know it's your vote that keeps them in power.

And they are changing policy regarding money in politics - look up STOCK Act.

 

[saywhatkid]

For anyone that wants to browse some interesting "Pepper Spraying Cop" photos, check the link; https://www.facebook.com/home.php?s....327027153978307.98275.100000130766818&type=3

Hope the link works. I had some good laughs at a few of these.

 

[deafskeptic]

All this poll states is that the majority believes that most of current congressmen should be not re-elected...for whatever reasons. Do you think that's how it should work, that politicians make decisions based on fundings from corporations? American citizens can demand change if they want to...it doesn't have to be this way but it will if no one writes to their senator or congressmen and voice their concerns. Politicians know it's your vote that keeps them in power.

And they are changing policy regarding money in politics - look up STOCK Act.

It's almost never their own congressman that's at fault. It's always some other district's congressman that's at fault.

 

[TXgolfer]

I believe someone called it wishful thinking when I said OWS is having an impact...

Occupy Harvard Mars Recruiting by Goldman - Bloomberg

Top GOP Strategist Admits Occupy Wall Street Is Working | Care2 Causes

How Republicans are being taught to talk about Occupy Wall Street | The Ticket - Yahoo! News
ORLANDO, Fla. -- The Republican Governors Association met this week in Florida to give GOP state executives a chance to rejuvenate, strategize and team-build. But during a plenary session on Wednesday, one question kept coming up: How can Republicans do a better job of talking about Occupy Wall Street?
"I'm so scared of this anti-Wall Street effort. I'm frightened to death," said Frank Luntz, a Republican strategist and one of the nation's foremost experts on crafting the perfect political message. "They're having an impact on what the American people think of capitalism."
Luntz offered tips on how Republicans could discuss the grievances of the Occupiers, and help the governors better handle all these new questions from constituents about "income inequality" and "paying your fair share."
Yahoo News sat in on the session, and counted 10 do's and don'ts from Luntz covering how Republicans should fight back by changing the way they discuss the movement.
1. Don't say 'capitalism.'
"I'm trying to get that word removed and we're replacing it with either 'economic freedom' or 'free market,' " Luntz said. "The public . . . still prefers capitalism to socialism, but they think capitalism is immoral. And if we're seen as defenders of quote, Wall Street, end quote, we've got a problem."
2. Don't say that the government 'taxes the rich.' Instead, tell them that the government 'takes from the rich.'
"If you talk about raising taxes on the rich," the public responds favorably, Luntz cautioned. But "if you talk about government taking the money from hardworking Americans, the public says no. Taxing, the public will say yes."
3. Republicans should forget about winning the battle over the 'middle class.' Call them 'hardworking taxpayers.'
"They cannot win if the fight is on hardworking taxpayers. We can say we defend the 'middle class' and the public will say, I'm not sure about that. But defending 'hardworking taxpayers' and Republicans have the advantage."
4. Don't talk about 'jobs.' Talk about 'careers.'
"Everyone in this room talks about 'jobs,'" Luntz said. "Watch this."
He then asked everyone to raise their hand if they want a "job." Few hands went up. Then he asked who wants a "career." Almost every hand was raised.
"So why are we talking about jobs?"
5. Don't say 'government spending.' Call it 'waste.'
"It's not about 'government spending.' It's about 'waste.' That's what makes people angry."
6. Don't ever say you're willing to 'compromise.'
"If you talk about 'compromise,' they'll say you're selling out. Your side doesn't want you to 'compromise.' What you use in that to replace it with is 'cooperation.' It means the same thing. But cooperation means you stick to your principles but still get the job done. Compromise says that you're selling out those principles."
7. The three most important words you can say to an Occupier: 'I get it.'
"First off, here are three words for you all: 'I get it.' . . . 'I get that you're angry. I get that you've seen inequality. I get that you want to fix the system."
Then, he instructed, offer Republican solutions to the problem.
8. Out: 'Entrepreneur.' In: 'Job creator.'
Use the phrases "small business owners" and "job creators" instead of "entrepreneurs" and "innovators."
9. Don't ever ask anyone to 'sacrifice.'
"There isn't an American today in November of 2011 who doesn't think they've already sacrificed. If you tell them you want them to 'sacrifice,' they're going to be be pretty angry at you. You talk about how 'we're all in this together.' We either succeed together or we fail together."
10. Always blame Washington.
Tell them, "You shouldn't be occupying Wall Street, you should be occupying Washington. You should occupy the White House because it's the policies over the past few years that have created this problem."
BONUS:
Don't say 'bonus!'
Luntz advised that if they give their employees an income boost during the holiday season, they should never refer to it as a "bonus."
"If you give out a bonus at a time of financial hardship, you're going to make people angry. It's 'pay for performance.'

Apparently you are not familiar with Luntz....he is a tad dramatic, but that's his job. This is exactly what I said though......politicians looking to use the movement. He is not talking about changing policy. So again, wishful thinking IMO

 

[kokonut]

Apparently you are not familiar with Luntz....he is a tad dramatic, but that's his job. This is exactly what I said though......politicians looking to use the movement. He is not talking about changing policy. So again, wishful thinking IMO

Yeah, he is. Hit that dial-a-meter set to high!

 

[TXgolfer]

Yeah, he is. Hit that dial-a-meter set to high!

I saw a cartoon the other day. A newscaster says "According to a new poll 100% of American's think Frank Luntz looks like a guy that should be named Frank Luntz" It would have been better if the newscaster had a meter accross his face though.

 

[DeafCaroline]

Apparently you are not familiar with Luntz....he is a tad dramatic, but that's his job. This is exactly what I said though......politicians looking to use the movement. He is not talking about changing policy. So again, wishful thinking IMO

So the STOCK Act was just a coincidence?

I said OWS is making an impact on politicians and I still stand by it. Let's wait a year and see if you still thinking this is laughable.

 

[kokonut]

Let's try 10 months plus and counting....

 

[TXgolfer]

So the STOCK Act was just a coincidence?

I said OWS is making an impact on politicians and I still stand by it. Let's wait a year and see if you still thinking this is laughable.

The STOCK act has been around a while. I think you can look at Solyndra as the action that caused the STOCK act to be taken more seriously. Fox news covered Solyndra which then uncovered the Pelosi B-I-L solar connection which then led to the CBS discovery of Pelosi and Bohner which was broadcast on 60 minutes which then became a GOP debate topic.... Then both parties wanted to get out in front of the situation. I tend to believe this is the cause rather than a bunch of people in tents....But if you want to believe the tent people are responsible you are entitled to your opinion.

If the tent people have not seriously focused their efforts and changed their strategy in a year, I will still be laughing.

 

[kokonut]

And if they do become an organized organization with all the perks and liabilities to go with it, could cities sue them to recoup their cost of clean up and damage?

 

[TXgolfer]

And if they do become an organized organization with all the perks and liabilities to go with it, could cities sue them to recoup their cost of clean up and damage?

Absolutely. I think businesses will be able to go after them as well IF the protesters actions were violating laws and cost them business

 

[DeafCaroline]

I think you can look at Solyndra as the action that caused the STOCK act to be taken more seriously. Fox news covered Solyndra which then uncovered the Pelosi B-I-L solar connection which then led to the CBS discovery of Pelosi and Bohner which was broadcast on 60 minutes which then became a GOP debate topic.... Then both parties wanted to get out in front of the situation. I tend to believe this is the cause rather than a bunch of people in tents....But if you want to believe the tent people are responsible you are entitled to your opinion.

If the tent people have not seriously focused their efforts and changed their strategy in a year, I will still be laughing.

So, OWS is made up of just tent people? that's how little you think of this movement that was borne out of a nationwide economic collapse?

wow.

I didn't say "tent people" will be solely responsible for overhauls of the political/banking system, I said they will have an impact on that just by the sheer power of the media whose attention they're commanding.

I just find it very interesting that 60 Minutes did a report AFTER OWS and that the the Stock Act garnered majority votes AFTER OWS made itself known.


What is the Stop Trading on Congressional Knowledge (STOCK) Act?

The Stop Trading on Congressional Knowledge (STOCK) Act would prohibit members of Congress and federal employees from trading stocks based on nonpublic information obtained on the job, and it would require greater oversight of the growing "political intelligence” industry. The US Senate and the US Supreme Court are the only two out of 975 federal entities that appear to have no rules and no laws prohibiting them from trading stocks based on nonpublic information they gain on the job. While the US House of Representatives Ethics Manual states that its members should "never use any information coming to him confidentially in the performance of governmental duties as a means for making private profit," it currently remains legal to do so.

The STOCK Act was originally introduced in the 109th session of the House of Representatives on Mar. 28, 2006 by Brian Baird (D-WA) and Louise Slaughter (D-NY) where it died in committee. It was reintroduced in the 110th (May 16, 2007) and 111th (Jan. 26, 2009) House sessions where it also died in committee.

On Mar. 17, 2011, Tim Walz (D-MN) introduced the STOCK Act into the 112th House session where it gained one co-sponsor and was referred to various committees.

Eight more co-sponsors joined by Nov. 4, 2011.

On Nov. 13, 2011, 60 Minutes reported that several members of Congress allegedly used insider information for personal gain. The STOCK Act received 84 additional House co-sponsors in the five days following the report, and Scott Brown (R-MA) filed the STOCK Act in the Senate on Nov. 15, 2011. Kirsten Gillibrand (D-NY) also filed a variation of the STOCK Act in the Senate on Nov. 17, 2011.

 

[DeafCaroline]

p.s. Solyndra got punished badly by the market as they should but it made no difference to the progress of the green energy sector. That sector is growing quickly. Obama was right to focus on this sector, he just chose the wrong company to support and it was a major error.

 

[Beowulf]

And if they do become an organized organization with all the perks and liabilities to go with it, could cities sue them to recoup their cost of clean up and damage?

Absolutely. I think businesses will be able to go after them as well IF the protesters actions were violating laws and cost them business

That's naive. Imagine the blow to their image if they dare try this. Sure, one can sue anybody for anything, but winning is another matter.
Not gonna happen.