Some thoughts?

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faire_jour said:
Horrible isn't it. The oral program has appropriate services, bi-bi doesn't and won't. They don't want to change the services. They think AVT or aural rehab is against the bi-bi philosophy because it uses the weakest sense (hearing) instead of the strongest (vision). Or that is what the program director told me.
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If you don't agree with the philosophy of bi-bi, you have other options available to you. If you don't think your daughter is getting the services she should have in a bi-bi environment, you have the option of placing her somewhere else. If you don't think the school is spending approriate time on AVT, you have the option of contracting for outside services. What you don't have the option of doing is forcing the school you have chosen to place her in to change their philosophy just to suit your whims. It is working for the other children. You knew what the philosophy of the school was prior to placing her there. If you have decided that you aren't satisfied with that placement, then change placements. You do not have the option of forcing a bi-bi program to adopt oral philopophies just because that is what you want for your child. Exercise your options. You have plenty of them available to you.
 
faire_jour said:
I said it was hard, not impossible. Do you disagree that if you could hear better, you could self-correct, and learn pronunciation just from hearing a word spoken?
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Why is the issue pronunciation? The issue is language. The issue is being able to use language in a native way that allows for the ability to think and interact with the world around one appropriately. The issue is being able to use language for critical thought. Being able to pronounce a word does not make that word useful. As I stated before, a parrot can be taught correct pronunciation. But a parrot cannot use the word they have just pronounced oh so well as language.
 
may i ask? what does bi-bi mean?
 
faire_jour said:
Honestly I am very interested in cued speech. I have seen it work in the few kids I've seen that use it. Nothing wrong with options.
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Exactly. You have options. Put your energy into exercising those options instead of trying to set bi-bi education back 100 years.
 
Bi-Bi means Bi-lingual and Bi-cultural.

The best example of using the Bi-Bi approach would be the TLC at Framingham, MA. source

 
jillio said:
Perhaps you should listen to what the deaf adults who have been implanted are saying. You, Jackie, Cloggy, and faire_jour, are like myself, hearing. Your perspective is that of being outside looking in. The only way to be on the inside looking out is to listen to the people who have actually experienced deafness. The deaf individuals themselves. Parental reports are notorious for being innacurate when compared to the reported experiences of the deaf child.
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As I have said many times, that is exactly what my wife and I did: we talked to many, many deaf adults in the course of not only deciding which method of communication to initially use but also when we were deciding on the cochlear implant for our child.

Guess what, we wound up with a broad spectrum of views and opinions with respect to oral v. sign--is that surprising? However, with respect to the ci, the opinions and experiences from deaf adult users was nearly unanimous--how they wish they could have the opportunity our daughter was being given-to be implanted as a child.

I cannot condense into a few paragraphs a process that took place over months, actually years for it did not end with her getting her ci. We did listen to deaf adults, my point is that it is YOU who needs to stop and remember that you have not cornered the market on how to raise a deaf child and instead of constantly arguing and insulting parents of cochlear implanted children, listen to what they are saying for when it comes to raising a child with a ci, they are not "outsiders" but are a tremendous source of information and support and have experiences that you do not.
 
faire_jour said:
Depends on your definition of therapy. Is signing to your child "ASL therapy"? Is walking through the zoo talking about the animals therapy?
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No, dear, that is communication, and it happens naturally and freely as communication is meant to. It does not require directed activities, nor is it dependent upon an agenda.
 
jillio said:
Exactly. You have options. Put your energy into exercising those options instead of trying to set bi-bi education back 100 years.
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:lol:
 
You know, I stepped back in order to allow the Deaf/deaf to speak for themselves as was suggested by faire_jour. I find it odd that when I did, 2 other hearing people joined the discussion, with the sole purpose of speaking for the hearing. :roll:

Well, faire_jour, you got what you asked for. The Deaf/deaf have spoken. Why is it that you are continuing to refuse to listen? It would appear that the only information that is of value to you is that which comes from the hearing, not from the Deaf/deaf. That would indicate that not only are you "wasting time" here yourself, as you stated, it is also a waste of time of the Deaf/deaf community for which this forum was created. Except to serve the purpose of keeping all aware that audism is alive and well.
 
jillio said:
It isn't about what appeals to the parent...it is about what is best for the child.
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That is exactly what FJ is attempting to accomplish for her child but is being met with resistence from her daughter's school. They seem more concerned with maintaining their "philosophy" then with meeting the needs of her daughter--their student-- and that is a shame.
 
rick48 said:
my point is that it is YOU who needs to stop and remember that you have not cornered the market on how to raise a deaf child and instead of constantly arguing and insulting parents of cochlear implanted children, listen to what they are saying for when it comes to raising a child with a ci, they are not "outsiders" but are a tremendous source of information and support and have experiences that you do not.
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I'm sorry but that was uncalled for.

jillio has raised a Deaf son. To us, jillio, is Culturally Deaf, although she is hearing.

jillio, is presently studying for her Masters, unless I am mistaken in psychology.

This field, she is experienced, and not considered an outsider.

Here, jillio, is a member and has an opinion to share.

She has yet to tell any of us what to do and this comment was uncalled for.

I am very proud of jillio's stance on communication because she firmly believes in full access to communication and truly wish more hearing parents were like her.
 
rick48 said:
That is exactly what FJ is attempting to accomplish for her child but is being met with resistence from her daughter's school. They seem more concerned with maintaining their "philosophy" then with meeting the needs of her daughter--their student-- and that is a shame.
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They are meeting the needs of those children requiring a bi-bi environment. If FJ's daughter doesn't need that, or if she thinks her daughter doesn't need that, then she has the option of changing placements. She does not have the option of changing the school's philosophy. Not legally, not morally, and not ethically.
 
rick48 said:
As I have said many times, that is exactly what my wife and I did: we talked to many, many deaf adults in the course of not only deciding which method of communication to initially use but also when we were deciding on the cochlear implant for our child.

Guess what, we wound up with a broad spectrum of views and opinions with respect to oral v. sign--is that surprising? However, with respect to the ci, the opinions and experiences from deaf adult users was nearly unanimous--how they wish they could have the opportunity our daughter was being given-to be implanted as a child.

I cannot condense into a few paragraphs a process that took place over months, actually years for it did not end with her getting her ci. We did listen to deaf adults, my point is that it is YOU who needs to stop and remember that you have not cornered the market on how to raise a deaf child and instead of constantly arguing and insulting parents of cochlear implanted children, listen to what they are saying for when it comes to raising a child with a ci, they are not "outsiders" but are a tremendous source of information and support and have experiences that you do not.
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Please, rick, tell it like it really is: you talked to many oral deaf. The oral deaf are not representative of the deaf population as a whole.

And you are correct. I did not corner the market on how to raise a deaf child. The Deaf adults that suffered under such restrictive philosophies as oralism, and know exactly how their needs were not met, cornered the market on that. I simply listen to the valuable advice they have to give. Combine that with the experts in child development, cognitive sciences, and specialists in language development, and you've got the most valuable information that can be found.
 
Mrs Bucket said:
I'm sorry but that was uncalled for.

jillio has raised a Deaf son. To us, jillio, is Culturally Deaf, although she is hearing.

jillio, is presently studying for her Masters, unless I am mistaken in psychology.

This field, she is experienced, and not considered an outsider.

Here, jillio, is a member and has an opinion to share.

She has yet to tell any of us what to do and this comment was uncalled for.

I am very proud of jillio's stance on communication because she firmly believes in full access to communication and truly wish more hearing parents were like her.
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:ty: Mrs. Bucket. Only one correction: I have my Master's, and have defended my dissertation for my doctorate. My thesis was on Deaf issues, and the ways in which the hearing continue to underserve and misserve their needs.
 
ncff07 said:
aint that the truth.
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Well, the Deaf/deaf say it is, I say it is, the experts in rehabilitation say it is, the experts in education say it is, and the experts in psychology, sociology, and social justice say it is, and the experts in mental health say it is. That's good enough for me. The only dissenting group are the audists.
 
jillio said:
Well, the Deaf/deaf say it is, I say it is, the experts in rehabilitation say it is, the experts in education say it is, and the experts in psychology, sociology, and social justice say it is, and the experts in mental health say it is. That's good enough for me. The only dissenting group are the audists.
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they are in denial then.
 
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