Vocab limits?

[Hear Again]

I understand, but I was speaking generally.

so was i.

 

[jillio]

I'm not sure I entirely agree with the statement that a CODA who is exposed to ASL from infancy can make ASL be their L1 language, even if they are hearing. Ultimately, they grow up (even at age 2-3 when they start socializing with other hearing children and on), I do believe that for CODAs, spoken English is still their first language. It's only natural, when they have hearing. I could see that ASL could follow a very, very close second. I do understand that you were offering another perspective on Jasin's statement that ASL "cannot" be a native language for hearing people. I can't think of a single CODA I've met where ASL was their L1 language. It always followed a close second.

While it is true that they eventually grow up and begin to socialize with other children at approximately age 2-3, that is not would qualify ASL as being their native language. First language is not necessarily language that has been acquired as a native. Many deaf children have spoken English as their first and only language, but due to the delays experienced in developing this language, they do not have the characteristics of a native user. That is what determines L1.

 

[jasin]

I'm not sure I entirely agree with the statement that a CODA who is exposed to ASL from infancy can make ASL be their L1 language, even if they are hearing. Ultimately, they grow up (even at age 2-3 when they start socializing with other hearing children and on), I do believe that for CODAs, spoken English is still their first language. It's only natural, when they have hearing. I could see that ASL could follow a very, very close second. I do understand that you were offering another perspective on Jasin's statement that ASL "cannot" be a native language for hearing people. I can't think of a single CODA I've met where ASL was their L1 language. It always followed a close second.

I have to strongly agree with you!!! Coda don't communicate in ASL Nativity they only use it to communicate with deaf people whether its their parents or other deafs. Being fluent in ASL from a young age does not make you a native signer!!!!! Native signers are deaf, and sometimes hard of hearing. It is our language!!!!! We created it and are solely responsible for its development and improvement.

“As long as we have deaf people on earth, we will have signs…”
George Veditz, Preservation of Sign Language, 1913

 

[jillio]

I have to strongly agree with you!!! Coda don't communicate in ASL Nativity they only use it to communicate with deaf people whether its their parents or other deafs. Being fluent in ASL from a young age does not make you a native signer!!!!! Native signers are deaf, and sometimes hard of hearing. It is our language!!!!! We created it and are solely responsible for its development and improvement.

“As long as we have deaf people on earth, we will have signs…”
George Veditz, Preservation of Sign Language, 1913

If it is the first language acquired and used for communication, then they are native signers. The population they use the language with is not what determines a native user. In fact, because it is the first language acquired and used, it will influence all other languages learned. That is the definition of an L1 language.

What, prey tell, do you think a native signer is?

 

[Daredevel7]

I can sign that "stroma" example in what you'd consider a sentence and not lose any meaning. Just because there is no specific sign for that word does not make ASL limiting. Languages are much more then vocab. Furthermore, translating from one language to another is never perfect. You have to, in most cases, think in the language you are using without any translating or equivalents to truly understand that language.

I understand the concept of using existing signs to convey a new word. I never claimed that it was limiting because there's no sign for specific words. It seems to me that you would have to have a higher intelligence in order to EASILY utilize 15,000 signs (or whatever the number may be for ASL) to create a new idea.

Are you telling me that it's easy for you to convey the following sentences? I understand it's hard to translate exactly, but honestly would this be easy for someone to translate into ASL:

"Stroma, the thick fluid found in between grana, which are stacks of thylakoid disks. Stroma is where the carbohydrate formation reactions occur in the chloroplast of plant cells undergoing photosynthesis."

I just copied that from wikipedia. I really would like to know since I'm not fluent in ASL.

 

[jillio]

I understand the concept of using existing signs to convey a new word. I never claimed that it was limiting because there's no sign for specific words. It seems to me that you would have to have a higher intelligence in order to EASILY utilize 15,000 signs (or whatever the number may be for ASL) to create a new idea.

Are you telling me that it's easy for you to convey the following sentences? I understand it's hard to translate exactly, but honestly would this be easy for someone to translate into ASL:

"Stroma, the thick fluid found in between grana, which are stacks of thylakoid disks. Stroma is where the carbohydrate formation reactions occur in the chloroplast of plant cells undergoing photosynthesis."

I just copied that from wikipedia. I really would like to know since I'm not fluent in ASL.

Technical vocabulary is difficult to interpret into any other language, ASL included. Doesn't mean it can't be done, but it does require a knowledge not just of the vocabulary, but of the field, as well. That is why so many terps specialize.

 

[jasin]

I think you are confusing native with first. There is a difference.

 

[jillio]

I think you are confusing native with first. There is a difference.

No, I'm not confusing it at all, but I think perhaps you are. It has to do with when the language was acquired.

 

[jasin]

I understand the concept of using existing signs to convey a new word. I never claimed that it was limiting because there's no sign for specific words. It seems to me that you would have to have a higher intelligence in order to EASILY utilize 15,000 signs (or whatever the number may be for ASL) to create a new idea.

Are you telling me that it's easy for you to convey the following sentences? I understand it's hard to translate exactly, but honestly would this be easy for someone to translate into ASL:

"Stroma, the thick fluid found in between grana, which are stacks of thylakoid disks. Stroma is where the carbohydrate formation reactions occur in the chloroplast of plant cells undergoing photosynthesis."

I just copied that from wikipedia. I really would like to know since I'm not fluent in ASL.

ASL doesn't have words it has signs. Only spoken and written languages have words. ASl is not a written or spoke language!!!!!

Anything that is said in English can be signed, regardless of how complex it may be in English.

Lastly, we don't need English structure, vocab, or grammar to sign something. We use the rules and grammar of ASL not English. The rules and grammar of ASL are entirely different.

 

[Daredevel7]

ASL doesn't have words it has signs. ASl is not a written or spoke language!!!!! Anything that is said in English can be signed, regardless of how complex it may or may not be in English. Interpreters do this for us everyday.

Lastly, we don't need English structure, vocab, or grammar to sign something in ASL. We use the rules and grammar of ASL not English. The rules and grammar of ASL are entirely different.

I don't know why you're arguing that...? Did you even read what I said? You said that anything in English can be signed, so I asked if people can easily sign what I said above. I said that it seems to me that you have to have an extensive knowledge of the signs in order to utilize complex ideas. No idea where your argument is coming from.

 

[jasin]

No, I'm not confusing it at all, but I think perhaps you are. It has to do with when the language was acquired.

If that's what you want to believe.

 

[jasin]

I don't know why you're arguing that...? Did you even read what I said? You said that anything in English can be signed, so I asked if people can easily sign what I said above. I said that it seems to me that you have to have an extensive knowledge of the signs in order to utilize complex ideas. No idea where your argument is coming from.

They do it everyday at Gallaudet University. Ever heard of the The Department of Biology at Gallaudet?

Biology - Undergraduate Programs - Gallaudet University

 

[jasin]

I don't know why you're arguing that...? Did you even read what I said? You said that anything in English can be signed, so I asked if people can easily sign what I said above. I said that it seems to me that you have to have an extensive knowledge of the signs in order to utilize complex ideas. No idea where your argument is coming from.

Arguing in defense of other deaf people. You did imply our language is limiting.

 

[jillio]

If that's what you want to believe.

It isn't what I believe, it is what I and linguists, cognitive pshychologists, neurologists, developmental psychologists and linguistic anthropologists know.

As I stated in a previous post, there are innumerable deaf people who have spoken English as their first and only language, but that does not make them native users, and they do not have available to them the linguistic features of English that a native user does. The same with ASL. A CODA who acquires ASL on a developmentally appropriate schedule, and it is the language used first for communication, both receptive and expressive, is a native signer. More so than a child who learns ASL at the age of 5. The native language is the one that first influences cognition and is acquired, not learned, on a developmentally appropriate schedule.

 

[jasin]

so was i.

Then why'd you go on to specify you were referring to kid that went to a residential school? That don't seem to general to me.

 

[jasin]

It isn't what I believe, it is what I and linguists, cognitive pshychologists, neurologists, developmental psychologists and linguistic anthropologists know.

As I stated in a previous post, there are innumerable deaf people who have spoken English as their first and only language, but that does not make them native users, and they do not have available to them the linguistic features of English that a native user does. The same with ASL. A CODA who acquires ASL on a developmentally appropriate schedule, and it is the language used first for communication, both receptive and expressive, is a native signer. More so than a child who learns ASL at the age of 5. The native language is the one that first influences cognition.

You were addressing me specifically and stating i'm the one who who is confusing things. You did specifically state, "No, I'm not confusing it at all, but I think perhaps you are". Oh, and if your statement about me confusing things was not so vague then maybe I would of known you were talking about what some psychologist, linguists, etc.. believe.

 

[jillio]

You were addressing me and stating i'm the one who who does not understandf. Now you bringing up linguists and psychologist?

Yes, I did bring them up, as they are the authorities on what distinguishes a native language user. And to indicate that there are numerous experts in several fields who support what I am saying.

 

[Daredevel7]

Arguing in defense of other deaf people. You did imply our language is limiting.

Yes I did imply that, but no way did I say anything about ASL having words or saying that it is written or spoken words.

You said this: "ASL doesn't have words it has signs. Only spoken and written languages have words. ASl is not a written or spoke language!!!!!"

Sorry if I offended anyone, but I also think Chinese characters are limiting too even though they are thousands of years old. It's really a matter of opinion. I am a practical person, this is just how I think. To me, if there is a new discovery, there should be a new name for it.

I am VERY curious to see how a science class goes in Gallaudet.....I suppose Ill have to learn ASL first (Oh yea, taking a class starting in Jan 26th!)

 

[jillio]

You were addressing me specifically and stating i'm the one who who is confusing things. You did specifically state, "No, I'm not confusing it at all, but I think perhaps you are". Oh, and if your statement about me confusing things was not so vague then maybe I would of known you were talking about what some psychologist, linguists, etc.. believe.

Well, then, let me make it less vague for you. It is obvious that you do not understand what the difference between a native language and a first language is, nor what constitutes nativity. I simply offered you evidence and correction for your misconception so that you might learn accurately.

 

[jasin]

"American Sign Language (ASL) is a complex visual-spatial language that is used by the Deaf community in the United States and English-speaking parts of Canada. It is a linguistically complete, natural language. It is the native language of many Deaf men and women" (Karen Nakamura Deaf Library).

"ASL is the recognized sign language of the deaf community in the United States of America. As is the case with standardized spoken, written, and signed languages worldwide, ASL conforms to linguistic principles (e.g., semantics, syntax, morphology, phonology, and pragmatics). The complex visual-spatial linguistic structure of ASL is distinct from English, a linear, sequential language based on auditory processes." (AMERICAN SIGN LANGUAGE Position Statement National Association of the Deaf)

"American Sign Language (or ASL, Ameslan) is the dominant sign language of the Deaf community in the United States" (2005, Downs, Sharon. Make A Difference. University of Arkansas at Little Rock.)


"Sorenson Claims that ASL is Native Language of HOH Folks" see: Sorenson Claims that ASL is Native Language of HOH Folks

Deaf people are "native users of ASL. " (college of New Jersey, The College of New Jersey Home)