Walk4Hearing

[Jezie]

Spanish is also spoken in the USA where the culture of those speaking it would not be that different that for those that use English. But it could also help in other countries where it is spoken.

Funny thing... If Spanish is spoken in an area it is because Spanish people are there and the funny thing when these things happen cultures mix and mingle...
We are human beings first... You can go anywhere on the world and we won't be that different from each other... Cultures however are at the root of a people unless a group has been forced to give to the dominant one and even here the weaker (lack of better term) will still have aspects of it... Look at the Natives if you do not believe me... The more they lose their language the less of their culture they keep... It is through language that a culture is built...

Sent from my SM-G530T1 using AllDeaf App mobile app

 

[Crickets]

I took Spanish from about middle school <7th/8thy grade> through college. In college it was one of my my two majors. Culture and language are part of each other and interconnect.
In high school my Spanish teacher held a party at his home where we cooked foods from Spain and other Spanish-speaking countries.
To say that language is <"only" - my interjection> a way to communicate with others and is not typically the most important part of culture, is false and implies lack of understanding of something pretty basic...

My point is that ONLY learning a language (such as ONLY learning ASL via books or online) doesn't teach you anything about the culture of the people who speak that language (the customs, beliefs, history etc., of a culture). I completely agree, eating foods from other cultures, reading their poems, studying their art, learning their history, actually living in another culture - THOSE are the things that teach you about those cultures.

I could become fluent in ASL or any other language if I chose to, but ONLY learning a language and how to say/communicate the words or meaning doesn't BY ITSELF teach you the culture. If I ONLY learned ASL, that ALONE wouldn't give me any knowledge about what it means to be Deaf, any more than my learning Spanish well enough to get A's all through high school and college taught me Spanish culture (what it means to BE Spanish).

Language BY ITSELF isn't culture. My sister-in-law was born in China and is fluent in 3 languages. When she learned English in China, that didn't mean she suddenly knew anything about American or British or Australian culture. Learning English also didn't make her less Chinese or change her culture in any way. Despite taking English classes, she was still fully Chinese. It was by moving to the U.S. and living our customs, spending time with Americans, etc., that she learned what it was like to be an American and who she was culturally actually changed.

If knowing ASL is the most important part of understanding Deaf culture, then I should just be able to teach myself ASL and I'll know all or most of what there is to know about being Deaf, right? Two hearing people learning the finger alphabet or even having a conversation in perfect ASL will cause them to understand what it's like to not hear and live in a hearing world, correct? NO, of course not. To actually understand Deaf culture, it's important to learn it from someone who is Deaf, spend a good deal of time around and talk with other people who are Deaf, learn Deaf customs, history, stories, experiences, the meaning behind certain signs, etc.

Yes, to FULLY BE a part of a culture, you need to know the language(s) spoken by the members of that culture, but language ALONE is just a tool that helps you to communicate with members of a culture and to "fit in" with that culture. But it's all the other "stuff" besides the words/signs that really make up a culture. I never said language isn't part of culture, just that it's not the ONE or even the most important part of what "culture" is. Language doesn't equal culture. Because Deaf culture is language-focused/based, it's probably a much larger part of Deaf culture than spoken languages are to the cultures of people who can hear, but I stand by my assertion that ASL (or any sign language) doesn't equal Deaf culture. My high school friends and I could get together and decide to speak only in Spanish and that wouldn't change who we are culturally as Americans or hearing people, whereas it appears that Deaf people are/feel "less Deaf" when they aren't communicating in ASL, and they require that people use ASL to be considered Deaf. But two hearing people speaking to each other in ASL doesn't make them Deaf, and using ASL doesn't make them any less "hearing."

Maybe disagreements/differences about this topic illustrate a fundamental "disconnect" or lack of understanding between hearing/HOH/deaf and Deaf people. In that case, it's a good opportunity for learning by all groups.

 

[Reba]

My point is that ONLY learning a language (such as ONLY learning ASL via books or online) doesn't teach you anything about the culture of the people who speak that language (the customs, beliefs, history etc., of a culture). . .

It does if you have the right teachers, a complete curriculum, and the right attitude for learning.

I could become fluent in ASL or any other language if I chose to, but ONLY learning a language and how to say/communicate the words or meaning doesn't BY ITSELF teach you the culture. If I ONLY learned ASL, that ALONE wouldn't give me any knowledge about what it means to be Deaf, any more than my learning Spanish well enough to get A's all through high school and college taught me Spanish culture (what it means to BE Spanish).

If you don't incorporate the culture into language learning you'll never be truly fluent, grade "A" or not.

Language BY ITSELF isn't culture. . .

No, but culture without a language will die out. Without a way of sharing the culture and passing it down thru language, it will cease to exist.

My sister-in-law was born in China and is fluent in 3 languages. When she learned English in China, that didn't mean she suddenly knew anything about American or British or Australian culture.

Who said anything about "suddenly" knowing a culture? It's a process, never ending. If she didn't get instruction on the cultures of the languages she studied (formal or informal), then her language learning was incomplete.

Learning English also didn't make her less Chinese or change her culture in any way. Despite taking English classes, she was still fully Chinese. It was by moving to and living in the U.S. and living our customs, spending time with Americans, etc., that she learned what it was like to be an American and who she was culturally actually changed.

Learning a new language and culture isn't a subtraction process--it's an addition. That is, when she learned English she didn't unlearn Chinese.

If knowing ASL is the most important part of understanding Deaf culture, then I should just be able to teach myself ASL and I'll know all or most of what there is to know about being Deaf, right?

Wrong. You can't teach yourself something that you don't know. If you aren't aware of the culture, then you can't teach it to yourself.

Two hearing people learning the finger alphabet or even having a conversation in perfect ASL will cause them to understand what it's like to not hear and live in a hearing world, correct? NO, of course not. To actually understand Deaf culture, it's important to learn it from someone who is Deaf, spend a good deal of time around and talk with other people who are Deaf, learn Deaf customs, history, stories, experiences, the meaning behind certain signs, etc.

That's right.

Yes, to FULLY BE a part of a culture, you need to know the language(s) spoken by the members of that culture, but language ALONE is just a tool that helps you to communicate with members of a culture and to "fit in" with that culture. But it's all the other "stuff" besides the words/signs that really make up a culture. I never said language isn't part of culture, just that it's not the ONE or even the most important part of what "culture" is. Language doesn't equal culture. Because Deaf culture is language-focused/based, it's probably a much larger part of Deaf culture than spoken languages are to the cultures of people who can hear, but I stand by my assertion that ASL (or any sign language) doesn't equal Deaf culture.

ASL is the defining element of the Deaf culture. Without ASL, you would just have a bunch of people who can't hear ("deaf").

My high school friends and I could get together and decide to speak only in Spanish and that wouldn't change who we are culturally as Americans or hearing people, whereas it appears that Deaf people are/feel "less Deaf" when they aren't communicating in ASL, and they require that people use ASL to be considered Deaf. But two hearing people speaking to each other in ASL doesn't make them Deaf, and using ASL doesn't make them any less "hearing."

I don't think you're open to "getting" it.

For one thing, your comparisons aren't equivalent. (BTW, people don't "speak" ASL, they sign it.) Choosing a language just for chatting with friends is hardly equivalent to daily using a language as your primary means of expression, and only switching languages out of forced necessity.

Maybe disagreements/differences about this topic illustrate a fundamental "disconnect" or lack of understanding between hearing/HOH/deaf and Deaf people. In that case, it's a good opportunity for learning by all groups.

Yourself included, I hope.

Finally, if language is not crucial to culture, why do those in charge of people take control of their subjects' languages? In America, the well-known historical reference is the Native groups having their indigenous languages forbidden. Why? Because it was a major step in removing their power and culture.

In America, we also have a historical reference, maybe not as well known to the general hearing public. It occurred after the Milan Conference, which tried to force the termination of use of ASL in America. Why? Because the paternalistic powers in charge knew that they couldn't fully take charge until they also controlled the language.

Your analogy of friends choosing to speak Spanish amongst themselves falls flat. Now, suppose instead that the government forced you to speak Spanish only, and every time you used English you'd be slapped hard across the face.

 

[Crickets]

Funny thing... If Spanish is spoken in an area it is because Spanish people are there and the funny thing when these things happen cultures mix and mingle...
We are human beings first... You can go anywhere on the world and we won't be that different from each other... Cultures however are at the root of a people unless a group has been forced to give to the dominant one and even here the weaker (lack of better term) will still have aspects of it... Look at the Natives if you do not believe me... The more they lose their language the less of their culture they keep... It is through language that a culture is built...

Sent from my SM-G530T1 using AllDeaf App mobile app

That is true, however it's not ONLY changing their language that caused the loss of culture. It was also having to move, having land taken away, not being able to hunt and live off the land like they had been able to previously, being killed by new diseases, etc. Also, when different cultures live next to each other or among each other, there is going to be blending of languages and customs. Native groups adopt (or are forced to learn) other languages but the other groups adopt parts of the native language, too. Languages and cultures are constantly evolving and learning from others. Whether it's due to changes in technology, new inventions, war, disease, migration, agriculture, or climate, no culture or language stays the same forever. It's how/if members of a culture adapt to the changes that determine whether their culture will survive in some form. No culture today is the same as it was even 50 years ago, and today's cultures will continue to change. 50 years from now, Spanish may be spoken by more people in the U.S. than English is. 50 years from now, there may be a single global sign language used by Deaf people. For all we know, we'll all be able to read each other's minds in the future and no one will talk at all. Change is going to happen whether we want it to or not. We don't know what the changes will be, but the only certainty is things never say the same, and that includes cultures and languages. The world is constantly getting smaller and if anything, change is going to happen more quickly than it did in the past.

 

[Crickets]

It does if you have the right teachers, a complete curriculum, and the right attitude for learning. If you don't incorporate the culture into language learning you'll never be truly fluent, grade "A" or not.

Well, I certainly had the right attitude for learning, but I couldn't very well learn what I wasn't taught. I was as "fluent" as I needed to be to get an "A" and to meet a requirement to get into college. I had no reason to learn more of the Spanish culture and no real opportunity, because I grew up in poor, small-town northern New England where there aren't many people who are native Spanish speakers. It was either take the Spanish classes that my school offered or not get into the college I wanted to. I also had no idea that I wasn't learning all there was to know; you don't know what you don't know, you know?

No, but culture without a language will die out. Without a way of sharing the culture and passing it down thru language, it will cease to exist.

I attended a Native American powwow a couple of years ago. Most of the people there (to my knowledge and hearing, anyway) weren't fluent in any Native American language, but they were still practicing their customs and traditions and passing them down to their children and grand children. Their cultures had changed but certainly hadn't ceased to exist. Even though their cultures' languages and lands had been taken away from them, they found a way to bring parts of their culture back. Is it the same as it was before? Certainly not. And I in no way excuse what happened to Native peoples historically. But losing a language doesn't by itself mean a culture has to completely die out.

Who said anything about "suddenly" knowing a culture? It's a process, never ending. If she didn't get instruction on the cultures of the languages she studied (formal or informal), then her language learning was incomplete. Learning a new language and culture isn't a subtraction process--it's an addition. That is, when she learned English she didn't unlearn Chinese.

Wrong. You can't teach yourself something that you don't know.

That's false. People can teach themselves lots of things. You don't have to learn from someone else in person to learn something new. People learn all the time by reading books or or by self-discovery or observing things happening around them. It may not be the best way or the most complete way to learn, but it is possible. Even if when taught something by another person, it's possible and even encouraged that people try to surpass their teacher in what they know. If people never learn more than they're taught by others, society never progresses.

If you aren't aware of the culture, then you can't teach it to yourself.

I completely agree. However, I can teach myself a language. I don't need to know American or British or Australian culture to learn how to string English words together correctly. Is that the same as learning the culture? No, and that's my point.

ASL is the defining element of the Deaf culture. Without ASL, you would just have a bunch of people who can't hear ("deaf").

Ok, but the reason that's confusing to me is it makes it seem like ASL is all there is to Deaf culture. Without ASL, Deaf culture collapses and can't survive. I don't actually believe this, but that makes it seem like there's not much of substance to Deaf culture if it can't exist without ASL. It's been said by some Deaf people on this board that cochlear implants are a threat to Deaf culture, but if learning a new culture is addition and not subtraction, then why do so many Deaf people feel threatened by cochlear implants? Why do some Deaf people pressure other Deaf people to not use their cochlear implants? Why do some Deaf people believe they'd lose their identity and culture if they were able to hear? Wouldn't that be gaining a new culture on top of their Deaf culture? I'm not talking about depriving deaf people from experiencing Deaf culture or implanting children, but about grown people making a choice to experience something new to add to what they already have. I'm not saying every Deaf adult (or child) should get a cochlear implant, by the way, just that I don't understand some Deaf people's attitudes towards others who make that choice. If it's because they don't like certain cochlear companies' practices or history or the use of cochlear implants on children, then I hope those people don't use or buy any other products made by companies who do - or have done - things they disagree with.

I don't think you're open to "getting" it.

If I wasn't open/interested, I wouldn't be here discussing it. I'd have given up and gone away. My inability to understand something doesn't mean I'm not trying to.

For one thing, your comparisons aren't equivalent. (BTW, people don't "speak" ASL, they sign it.) Choosing a language just for chatting with friends is hardly equivalent to daily using a language as your primary means of expression, and only switching languages out of forced necessity.

I fully realize that my comparisons aren't equivalent, but I can't think of any other examples that are and that's the closest I could come to based on my personal experiences.

Yourself included, I hope.

Again, I wouldn't be here if I didn't want to learn. Learning is a process.

if language is not crucial to culture, why do those in charge of people take control of their subjects' languages? In America, the well-known historical reference is the Native groups having their indigenous languages forbidden. Why? Because it was a major step in removing their power and culture.

In America, we also have a historical reference, maybe not as well known to the general hearing public. It occurred after the Milan Conference, which tried to force the termination of use of ASL in America. Why? Because the paternalistic powers in charge knew that they couldn't fully take charge until they also controlled the language.

No, I don't think that is known to the general hearing public. And while history is important and certainly should be learned from, it's also not usually productive to keep dragging up past injustices in a way that perpetuates bad feelings and prevents healing. For example, even though I'm HOH I'm also hearing, so while I can understand why Deaf people who have experienced discrimination and abuse from hearing people in the past may feel deep mistrust or even hatred towards the people who treated them badly, I as a hearing person was not responsible for that past mistreatment. When I'm lumped together with all "hearies" and told that I'm audist because I prefer being able to hear, that's not helpful at all in assisting me to be more open to understanding the Deaf point of view.

I'm here because I'm HOH with progressive loss and I'm seeking fellowship and helpful advice from others going through what I am. That's all. I didn't come here to become a card-carrying member of the Deaf community. That's not a requirement of membership to this site, after all. I was curious about Deaf culture, but as soon as I found out that ASL was a requirement, then that option was out for me. Many Deaf people here repeatedly remind the hearing/HOH that they don't want to become hearing; well, not all deaf people are interested in becoming Deaf, either, especially when we feel attacked and unwelcome. I've never told any Deaf person here that I think they should get a cochlear implant or they're wrong for not wanting to hear. If I don't understand the Deaf point of view, well, there's a good reason for that: I grew up hearing and have never met anyone who's Deaf! Until I began losing hearing in my "good" ear, I never gave much thought to the fact that I might one day be completely deaf, or how I might deal with that. Not many hearing people ever think of such things until they're actually faced with them.

Your analogy of friends choosing to speak Spanish amongst themselves falls flat. Now, suppose instead that the government forced you to speak Spanish only, and every time you used English you'd be slapped hard across the face.

Well, I unfortunately remember corporal punishment in school for other things, so I imagine that would be very traumatic and damaging, both for the person being slapped and for the other children who had to witness it. But again, I've never hit a Deaf person for using ASL or told them they shouldn't use it, and this isn't a thread about forcing Deaf people to not use ASL. Because some Deaf people were historically prevented from using ASL, I'm sure that has a lot to do with why some Deaf people feel so threatened by or look down on other Deaf/deaf people who choose to get cochlear implants for themselves or their children.

Anyway, in an attempt to bring the conversation back to the topic of the thread, this is a thread about Walk4Hearing, which from what I've read is put on by a group started by someone who was late deafened and who had a close relationship with Gallaudet University. I don't belong to Walk4Hearing, but it seems like it's mainly for people who are late deafened/HOH and who want assistance being able to hear better and communicate with hearing people. It's not a group that, as far as I can tell, discriminates against Deaf people; it's just simply not geared FOR Deaf people. There are other groups for Deaf people, so I personally think it's nice that HOH folks like me have a group that provides help with services that we might be interested in, especially since there are lots of HOH people who may need help with buying hearing aids or getting other services that insurance doesn't cover.

I don't think it's necessary for all deaf/HOH groups/organizations to provide ALL services to ALL people, just as I don't think it's necessary for all stores to sell everything. Since people who are Deaf, deaf, and HOH each seem to have different needs/interests, having some organizations that provide specialized services for each group may not be such a bad thing.

I'm fully aware that there are many things about Deaf culture that I don't understand and probably never will, not just because I don't know ASL but because I don't know any Deaf people. Even if I wanted to learn ASL, from a practical standpoint it doesn't make much sense for me. I don't say that to put down ASL or Deaf culture; I'm just being realistic. That's one reason why it's disappointing for me to discover that Deaf culture and ASL are so closely intertwined. Because I came from one big happy family of variously-HOH people, it was quite jarring to discover that to Deaf people, being deaf/HOH isn't "enough." Again, I'm not saying that to judge or criticize. I feel like I'm beginning to understand now, even when I seem like I'm not. But because I feel like learning ASL isn't a practical option for me, I also feel like I will never understand, so I also feel frustrated with my inability, if that makes sense.

I'm sure from a Deaf perspective I say a lot of stupid or ignorant things (or both!), but please understand that even though I've been HOH all my life and grew up around many HOH people, until I came to this board I never had any contact with the Deaf community at all. I thought of ASL as just another language, and had no real idea about Deaf culture. If I as a HOH person, surrounded by so many other HOH relatives, had such limited knowledge or understanding, I can only imagine how little the general hearing population knows about Deaf people or culture.

 

[Jezie]

That is true, however it's not ONLY changing their language that caused the loss of culture. It was also having to move, having land taken away, not being able to hunt and live off the land like they had been able to previously, being killed by new diseases, etc. Also, when different cultures live next to each other or among each other, there is going to be blending of languages and customs. Native groups adopt (or are forced to learn) other languages but the other groups adopt parts of the native language, too. Languages and cultures are constantly evolving and learning from others. Whether it's due to changes in technology, new inventions, war, disease, migration, agriculture, or climate, no culture or language stays the same forever. It's how/if members of a culture adapt to the changes that determine whether their culture will survive in some form. No culture today is the same as it was even 50 years ago, and today's cultures will continue to change. 50 years from now, Spanish may be spoken by more people in the U.S. than English is. 50 years from now, there may be a single global sign language used by Deaf people. For all we know, we'll all be able to read each other's minds in the future and no one will talk at all. Change is going to happen whether we want it to or not. We don't know what the changes will be, but the only certainty is things never say the same, and that includes cultures and languages. The world is constantly getting smaller and if anything, change is going to happen more quickly than it did in the past.

... Add all the seasonings you want... You cannot change that language and culture are not only intertwined but you cannot have one without the other...

Sent from my SM-G530T1 using AllDeaf App mobile app

 

[hoichi]

Well, I certainly had the right attitude for learning, but I couldn't very well learn what I wasn't taught. I was as "fluent" as I needed to be to get an "A" and to meet a requirement to get into college. I had no reason to learn more of the Spanish culture and no real opportunity, because I grew up in poor, small-town northern New England where there aren't many people who are native Spanish speakers. It was either take the Spanish classes that my school offered or not get into the college I wanted to. I also had no idea that I wasn't learning all there was to know; you don't know what you don't know, you know?

I attended a Native American powwow a couple of years ago. Most of the people there (to my knowledge and hearing, anyway) weren't fluent in any Native American language, but they were still practicing their customs and traditions and passing them down to their children and grand children. Their cultures had changed but certainly hadn't ceased to exist. Even though their cultures' languages and lands had been taken away from them, they found a way to bring parts of their culture back. Is it the same as it was before? Certainly not. And I in no way excuse what happened to Native peoples historically. But losing a language doesn't by itself mean a culture has to completely die out.

That's false. People can teach themselves lots of things. You don't have to learn from someone else in person to learn something new. People learn all the time by reading books or or by self-discovery or observing things happening around them. It may not be the best way or the most complete way to learn, but it is possible. Even if when taught something by another person, it's possible and even encouraged that people try to surpass their teacher in what they know. If people never learn more than they're taught by others, society never progresses.

I completely agree. However, I can teach myself a language. I don't need to know American or British or Australian culture to learn how to string English words together correctly. Is that the same as learning the culture? No, and that's my point.

Ok, but the reason that's confusing to me is it makes it seem like ASL is all there is to Deaf culture. Without ASL, Deaf culture collapses and can't survive. I don't actually believe this, but that makes it seem like there's not much of substance to Deaf culture if it can't exist without ASL. It's been said by some Deaf people on this board that cochlear implants are a threat to Deaf culture, but if learning a new culture is addition and not subtraction, then why do so many Deaf people feel threatened by cochlear implants? Why do some Deaf people pressure other Deaf people to not use their cochlear implants? Why do some Deaf people believe they'd lose their identity and culture if they were able to hear? Wouldn't that be gaining a new culture on top of their Deaf culture? I'm not talking about depriving deaf people from experiencing Deaf culture or implanting children, but about grown people making a choice to experience something new to add to what they already have. I'm not saying every Deaf adult (or child) should get a cochlear implant, by the way, just that I don't understand some Deaf people's attitudes towards others who make that choice. If it's because they don't like certain cochlear companies' practices or history or the use of cochlear implants on children, then I hope those people don't use or buy any other products made by companies who do - or have done - things they disagree with.

If I wasn't open/interested, I wouldn't be here discussing it. I'd have given up and gone away. My inability to understand something doesn't mean I'm not trying to.

I fully realize that my comparisons aren't equivalent, but I can't think of any other examples that are and that's the closest I could come to based on my personal experiences.

Again, I wouldn't be here if I didn't want to learn. Learning is a process.

No, I don't think that is known to the general hearing public. And while history is important and certainly should be learned from, it's also not usually productive to keep dragging up past injustices in a way that perpetuates bad feelings and prevents healing. For example, even though I'm HOH I'm also hearing, so while I can understand why Deaf people who have experienced discrimination and abuse from hearing people in the past may feel deep mistrust or even hatred towards the people who treated them badly, I as a hearing person was not responsible for that past mistreatment. When I'm lumped together with all "hearies" and told that I'm audist because I prefer being able to hear, that's not helpful at all in assisting me to be more open to understanding the Deaf point of view.

I'm here because I'm HOH with progressive loss and I'm seeking fellowship and helpful advice from others going through what I am. That's all. I didn't come here to become a card-carrying member of the Deaf community. That's not a requirement of membership to this site, after all. I was curious about Deaf culture, but as soon as I found out that ASL was a requirement, then that option was out for me. Many Deaf people here repeatedly remind the hearing/HOH that they don't want to become hearing; well, not all deaf people are interested in becoming Deaf, either, especially when we feel attacked and unwelcome. I've never told any Deaf person here that I think they should get a cochlear implant or they're wrong for not wanting to hear. If I don't understand the Deaf point of view, well, there's a good reason for that: I grew up hearing and have never met anyone who's Deaf! Until I began losing hearing in my "good" ear, I never gave much thought to the fact that I might one day be completely deaf, or how I might deal with that. Not many hearing people ever think of such things until they're actually faced with them.

Well, I unfortunately remember corporal punishment in school for other things, so I imagine that would be very traumatic and damaging, both for the person being slapped and for the other children who had to witness it. But again, I've never hit a Deaf person for using ASL or told them they shouldn't use it, and this isn't a thread about forcing Deaf people to not use ASL. Because some Deaf people were historically prevented from using ASL, I'm sure that has a lot to do with why some Deaf people feel so threatened by or look down on other Deaf/deaf people who choose to get cochlear implants for themselves or their children.

Anyway, in an attempt to bring the conversation back to the topic of the thread, this is a thread about Walk4Hearing, which from what I've read is a group started by someone who was late deafened and who had a close relationship with Gallaudet University. I don't belong to Walk4Hearing, but it seems like it's mainly for people who are late deafened/HOH and who want assistance being able to hear in and communicate with hearing people. It's not a group that, as far as I can tell, discriminates against Deaf people; it's just simply not geared FOR Deaf people. There are other groups for Deaf people, so I personally think it's nice that HOH folks like me have a group that provides help with services that we might be interested in, especially since there are lots of HOH people who may need help with buying hearing aids or getting other services that insurance doesn't cover.

I don't think it's necessary for all deaf/HOH groups/organizations to provide ALL services to ALL people, just as I don't think it's necessary for all stores to sell everything. Since people who are Deaf, deaf, and HOH each seem to have different needs/interests, having some organizations that provide specialized services for each group may not be such a bad thing.

I'm fully aware that there are many things about Deaf culture that I don't understand and probably never will, not just because I don't know ASL but because I don't know any Deaf people. Even if I wanted to learn ASL, from a practical standpoint it doesn't make much sense for me. I don't say that to put down ASL or Deaf culture; I'm just being realistic. That's one reason why it's disappointing for me to discover that Deaf culture and ASL are so closely intertwined. Because I came from one big happy family of variously-HOH people, it was quite jarring to discover that to Deaf people, being deaf/HOH isn't "enough." Again, I'm not saying that to judge or criticize. I feel like I'm beginning to understand now, even when I seem like I'm not. But because I feel like learning ASL isn't a practical option for me, I also feel like I will never understand, so I also feel frustrated with my inability, if that makes sense.

I'm sure from a Deaf perspective I say a lot of stupid or ignorant things (or both!), but please understand that even though I've been HOH all my life and grew up around many HOH people, until I came to this board I never had any contact with the Deaf community at all. I thought of ASL as just another language, and had no real idea about Deaf culture. If I as a HOH person, surrounded by so many other HOH relatives, had such limited knowledge or understanding, I can only imagine how little the general hearing population knows about Deaf people or culture.

You went to a powow, and saw for yourself almost all there didnt posses fluency in native languages. What you saw was remnants of a once thriving cukture that was desimated, and all but wiped out, save for some cultural practices. That in spite of the majority colonial cultures agressive expansion have been with great effort kept alive..that is a shadow of what these cultures once were. Their langueges have been seriously targetted and many many completely lost.

I think using a powow you went to once where no one spoke a native languege isnt much a good argument for your position.

Really now.

As for your qustions re Deaf and ci. We have been down.that road..clearly you have not paid attention. Thus i question.my impulse to.repeat myself..but will anyway...
Many of us see the behavioure and practices of the ci industry in which its very professionals insist parents of Deaf babies do all the can to prevent their Deaf baby in learning sign, so that our babies will not to use their words " revert to being Deaf", its a close relfection of the idea the state used in preventing native babies learning native languages so that these babies did not revert back to use their words to "saveges".
Yeah..
Plenty of us have have plms with this cultural colonialism.
Add to that the utter lack of choice in some counties, and the huge amount of socially conditioned free will brought to bare on scared hearie parents offered a maricle cure for the Deaf baby...and we have a classic example of a minority culture....ours...that is Deaf being directly threatened and assulted by multi national billion dollor companiies whos goal is to rid the world of people like us.
Which if you lack the situational awarness to know.
Are
Deaf.

We bring up past injustices because those injustices are first either whitwashed, ignored or made excuses for, or are for the most part still occuring, just in another guise.
If languege wasnt so damn important. Then why doesnt the hearie world leave us and our languege the hell alone.
It doesnt does it?

And plenty of us are sick of it.
Frankly you dont have the faintest idea what the hell we went through, we go through, in trying to save our languege and culture from the majority hearie coloniilism.
This is ongoing..current, present..now..
Not a past behavoir,
Audism and its long fangs are alive and well.
Your posts clearly demonstrate that.
As for being able to gain fluency in a languege while utterly ignoring its culture..fat chance.
Try that with japanese and see how far you get.
Fluency is more then asking for a washroom or a cheap whore...
Far more.
Weather you belive it or not.

As for us.
That is
Deaf..
Its close if not already a lost cause. But im a hopeless romantic.
Lost causes are the only causes worth fighting for.
Thus people like you will always see us, pointing out that uncomfortibe truth,
Leave ourculture and languege the hell alone.

Speach is silver
Silience is gold
Our signs are priceless!

 

[dogmom]

TRUE THAT, Reba, Jezie and hoichi!!

-and actually, teaching yourself ASL <by yourself> will be INCOMPLETE and FALSE and INAPPROPRIATE -

 

[Reba]

Well, I certainly had the right attitude for learning, but I couldn't very well learn what I wasn't taught. I was as "fluent" as I needed to be to get an "A" and to meet a requirement to get into college. I had no reason to learn more of the Spanish culture and no real opportunity, because I grew up in poor, small-town northern New England where there aren't many people who are native Spanish speakers. It was either take the Spanish classes that my school offered or not get into the college I wanted to. I also had no idea that I wasn't learning all there was to know; you don't know what you don't know, you know?

Your attitude was, "I need to learn enough of this language to get me into college." That's not the same as, "I want to become fluent so I can communicate with and be accepted by members of that community." There's nothing wrong with meeting college requirements but you surely must see the difference between that and becoming truly fluent (which incorporates cultural understanding).

I understand that you couldn't learn what wasn't offered, so you didn't know what you were missing. But now you know and can learn (if you're willing).

I attended a Native American powwow a couple of years ago. Most of the people there (to my knowledge and hearing, anyway) weren't fluent in any Native American language, but they were still practicing their customs and traditions and passing them down to their children and grand children. Their cultures had changed but certainly hadn't ceased to exist. Even though their cultures' languages and lands had been taken away from them, they found a way to bring parts of their culture back. Is it the same as it was before? Certainly not. And I in no way excuse what happened to Native peoples historically. But losing a language doesn't by itself mean a culture has to completely die out.

I won't presume to speak for Native Americans but I think you need to dig a little deeper into that history and its impact on today's lives. Native culture came a lot closer to extinction than you might think.

That's false. People can teach themselves lots of things. You don't have to learn from someone else in person to learn something new. People learn all the time by reading books or or by self-discovery or observing things happening around them. It may not be the best way or the most complete way to learn, but it is possible. Even if when taught something by another person, it's possible and even encouraged that people try to surpass their teacher in what they know. If people never learn more than they're taught by others, society never progresses.

You yourself stated that "you don't know what you don't know." You can't teach yourself something if you either don't know or don't accept that it exists.

I completely agree. However, I can teach myself a language. I don't need to know American or British or Australian culture to learn how to string English words together correctly. Is that the same as learning the culture? No, and that's my point.

Do you really believe that language acquisition is merely stringing together words?

Ok, but the reason that's confusing to me is it makes it seem like ASL is all there is to Deaf culture. Without ASL, Deaf culture collapses and can't survive. I don't actually believe this, but that makes it seem like there's not much of substance to Deaf culture if it can't exist without ASL.

Do you even realize how condescending your words are?

It's been said by some Deaf people on this board that cochlear implants are a threat to Deaf culture, but if learning a new culture is addition and not subtraction, then why do so many Deaf people feel threatened by cochlear implants?

Deaf people already know about the hearing culture that people with CI's experience. Some Deaf people see the implants as a threat to their culture because they see them as a threat to their language, and that language defines that culture. Deaf people live in a hearing world, so they're already aware of that culture. It's the default culture, so it's not learning a new one.

Why do some Deaf people pressure other Deaf people to not use their cochlear implants? Why do some Deaf people believe they'd lose their identity and culture if they were able to hear?

You need to ask those Deaf people. They can answer for themselves.

If I wasn't open/interested, I wouldn't be here discussing it. I'd have given up and gone away. My inability to understand something doesn't mean I'm not trying to.

So far, I don't see you "discussing" but rather pontificating.

I fully realize that my comparisons aren't equivalent, but I can't think of any other examples that are and that's the closest I could come to based on my personal experiences.

Pah! That's exactly right--they aren't equivalent! Your personal experiences aren't enough for this topic.

Again, I wouldn't be here if I didn't want to learn. Learning is a process.

I'm sorry but it doesn't appear that you want to learn but to argue. Those posters who are members of the Deaf community are trying to explain the culture/language relationship to you. If you are outside the community, how can you state what it is or isn't?

No, I don't think that is known to the general hearing public. And while history is important and certainly should be learned from, it's also not usually productive to keep dragging up past injustices in a way that perpetuates bad feelings and prevents healing. For example, even though I'm HOH I'm also hearing, so while I can understand why Deaf people who have experienced discrimination and abuse from hearing people in the past may feel deep mistrust or even hatred towards the people who treated them badly, I as a hearing person was not responsible for that past mistreatment. When I'm lumped together with all "hearies" and told that I'm audist because I prefer being able to hear, that's not helpful at all in assisting me to be more open to understanding the Deaf point of view.

Except the results of the Milan Conference didn't just happen in one point of time; they continue to this day. When you do a little research, you'll have a better understanding.

I'm here because I'm HOH with progressive loss and I'm seeking fellowship and helpful advice from others going through what I am. That's all.

That's fine.

I didn't come here to become a card-carrying member of the Deaf community.

I don't think anyone expects you to. Just respect and accept that it's a real culture with a real language on par with yours.

That's not a requirement of membership to this site, after all. Many Deaf people here repeatedly remind the hearing/HOH that they don't want to become hearing; well, not all deaf people are interested in becoming Deaf, either, especially when we feel attacked and unwelcome. I've never told any Deaf person here that I think they should get a cochlear implant or they're wrong for not wanting to hear. If I don't understand the Deaf point of view, well, there's a good reason for that: I grew up hearing and have never met anyone who's Deaf! Until I began losing hearing in my "good" ear, I never gave much thought to the fact that I might one day be completely deaf, or how I might deal with that. Not many hearing people ever think of such things until they're actually faced with them.

Well, I unfortunately remember corporal punishment in school for other things, so I imagine that would be very traumatic and damaging, both for the person being slapped and for the other children who had to witness it. But again, I've never hit a Deaf person for using ASL or told them they shouldn't use it, and this isn't a thread about forcing Deaf people to not use ASL. Because some Deaf people were historically prevented from using ASL, I'm sure that has a lot to do with why some Deaf people feel so threatened by or look down on other Deaf/deaf people who choose to get cochlear implants for themselves or their children.

I'm sorry that you don't get it.

Anyway, in an attempt to bring the conversation back to the topic of the thread, this is a thread about Walk4Hearing, which from what I've read is a group started by someone who was late deafened and who had a close relationship with Gallaudet University. I don't belong to Walk4Hearing, but it seems like it's mainly for people who are late deafened/HOH and who want assistance being able to hear in and communicate with hearing people. It's not a group that, as far as I can tell, does not discriminate against Deaf people; it's just simply not geared FOR Deaf people. There are other groups for Deaf people, so I personally think it's nice that HOH folks like me have a group that provides help with services that we might be interested in, especially since there are lots of HOH people who may need help with buying hearing aids or getting other services that insurance doesn't cover.

I don't think it's necessary for all deaf/HOH groups/organizations to provide ALL services to ALL people, just as I don't think it's necessary for all stores to sell everything. Since people who are Deaf, deaf, and HOH each seem to have different needs/interests, having some organizations that provide specialized services for each group may not be such a bad thing.

I'm fully aware that there are many things about Deaf culture that I don't understand and probably never will, not just because I don't know ASL but because I don't know any Deaf people. Even if I wanted to learn ASL, from a practical standpoint it doesn't make much sense for me. I don't say that to put down ASL or Deaf culture; I'm just being realistic. That's one reason why it's disappointing for me to discover that Deaf culture and ASL are so closely intertwined. Because I came from one big happy family of variously-HOH people, it was quite jarring to discover that to Deaf people, being deaf/HOH isn't "enough." Again, I'm not saying that to judge or criticize. I feel like I'm beginning to understand now, even when I seem like I'm not. But because I feel like learning ASL isn't a practical option for me, I also feel like I will never understand, so I also feel frustrated with my inability, if that makes sense.

I'm sure from a Deaf perspective I say a lot of stupid or ignorant things (or both!), but please understand that even though I've been HOH all my life and grew up around many HOH people, until I came to this board I never had any contact with the Deaf community at all. I thought of ASL as just another language, and had no real idea about Deaf culture. If I as a HOH person, surrounded by so many other HOH relatives, had such limited knowledge or understanding, I can only imagine how little the general hearing population knows about Deaf people or culture.

Maybe this will help you understand.

Look especially at the Venn diagram.

http://www.start-american-sign-language.com/deaf-community.html

 

[Crickets]

You went to a powow, and saw for yourself almost all there didnt posses fluency in native languages. What you sww was remnants of a once thriving cukture that was desimated, and all but wiped out, save for some cultural practices. That in spite of the majority colonial cuktures agfessive expansion have been with great effort kept alive..that is a shadow of what these cuktures once were. Their langueges have been seriously targetted and many many completely lost.

I think using a powow you went to once where no one spoke a native languege isnt much a good argument for your position.

Really now.

I thought the powwow was beautiful, even though I know it's only a remnant of the cultures that once were. I would have gone back to the powwow again and again, but there weren't many non-Native people there who weren't related to the people who danced or drummed or were selling handmade items, and I felt like it should be a private event for them, not that I as an outsider should be there; I didn't like that I might have caused any of them to feel like they were on display for me. I was invited there to take photos for an article, and the Native person I was with was careful to tell me what I shouldn't take photos of (not the dancers, for example). I waited until after the ceremony and always asked people if I could please take a photo of them in their costume, and that it was for a story, etc. I felt very privileged to be allowed to watch, but out of respect for their culture and privacy I wouldn't feel comfortable attending again.

As for your qustions re Deaf and ci. We have been down.that road..clearly you have not paid attention. Thus i question.my impulse to.repeat myself..but will anyway...
Many of us see the behavioure and practices of the ci industry in which its very professionals insist parents of Deaf babies do all the can to prevent their Deaf baby in learning sign, so that our babies will not to use their words " revert to being Deaf", its a close relfection of the idea the state used in preventing native babies learning native langueges so that these babies did not revert back to use their words to "saveges".
Yeah..
Plenty of us have huve plms with this cultural coloniasm.
Add to that the utter lack of choice in some counties, snd the huge amount of socially conditioned free will brought to bare on scared hearie parents offered a maricle cure for the Deaf baby...and we have a classic example of a minority culture....ours...that is Deaf being directly threatened and assulted by multi national billion dollor companiies whos goal is to rid the world of people like us.
Which if you lack the situational awarness to know.
Are
Deaf.

We bring up past injustices because those injustices are frst either whitwashed, ignored or made excuses for, or are for the most part still occuring, just in another guise.
If languege wasnt so damn important. Then why doesnt the hearie world leave us and oir languege the hell alone.
It doesnt does it?

And plenty of us are sick of it.
Frankky you dont have the faintest idea what the hell we wnt through, we go through, in trying to save our languege and culture from the majority hearie colonilism.
This is ongoing..current, present..now..
Not a past behavoir,
Audism and its long fangs are alive and well.
Your posts clearly demonstrate that.
As for being able to gain fluency in a languege whilw uttery ignoring its culture..fat chance.
Try that with japanese and see how far you get.
Fluency is more then asking for a washroom or a cheap whore...
Far more.
Weather you belive it or not.

As for us.
That is
Deaf..
Its close if not already a lost cause. But im a hopeless romantic.
Lost causes are the only causes worth fighting for.
Thus people like you will always see us, pointing out that uncomfortibe truth,
Leave oir culture and languege the hell alone.

Speach is silver
Silience is gold
Our signs are priceless!

O

Hoichi, you're Deaf and proud and happy, and that's wonderful. I would never suggest that you feel any differently about yourself. But just as you prefer being Deaf and feel it's a gift and right for you, I prefer hearing sounds as my personal choice for me. I also support parents' right to choose whether or not to have their deaf child implanted, and I support ASL for deaf children, whether or not they have implants. Honestly though, unless I'm reading this board, I don't think about cochlear implants at all. If I'm thinking about hearing/deaf issues it's about how very few states have mandatory hearing aid coverage for adults. I'm fortunate enough to live in a state that has mandatory insurance coverage for them, but if I was to take up any issue related to deafness, it would be hearing aid coverage and/or assistance for people who need them.

 

[KerBear]

By the way, the Walk referenced in this thread is about more than benign advocacy....look behind the niceties....

Dogmom, what niceties are you referring to? I'm not trying to start an argument; I genuinely want to know what you mean when you say the organization is about "more than benign advocacy". I'm not from the U.S., so since I can't attend an HLAA meeting, I have no idea if their website accurately represents their stated purpose/mandate: "The Hearing Loss Association of America (HLAA) is the nation’s leading organization representing people with hearing loss" (direct quote from the "Who We Are" portion of the HLAA website).

My understanding of HLAA is that it is an advocacy group for people who suffer from hearing loss and prefer to maintain as much of their former "hearing" lifestyle as possible, regardless of the degree of their hearing loss. It is geared towards those with hearing loss as opposed to those who identify as d/Deaf. If I understand their website correctly, that organization would be appropriate for someone like me, with a mild-to-moderate hearing loss who will eventually require accommodations in order to maintain my oral/spoken lifestyle.

****To all reading this thread, please note, I'm not in any way suggesting, implying or stating that I am opposed to learning ASL or experiencing d/Deaf culture as my hearing loss progresses. I'm not. (I know very basic ASL - with plans to pursue fluency once my children are in school - and have been attending a local Deaf social club with a friend of mine who is an ASL interpreter.) I AM saying that HLAA sounds perfect for someone like me whose family and close friends are all hearing.****

 

[dogmom]

in my experience, look at who does the major funding for HLAA, who are the presenters at meetings, what topics they focus on, what they don't mention as well what the -do - mention.

same as any other <un-related> organization that has backers from a certain industry

who are the stakeholders?

I also have audiologically mild hearing "loss"
most of my day to day interaction is with Hearing people
but I'm also someone who is outside the mainstream in many ways

i can look beyond the surface of things from my experience as an outsider and see what between the lines