You cannot hear with CI .. ??

[shel90]

Wait... why does someone need to be hearing for that? Basically, anything that might cause you to communicate with someone was out?!?! So, what, the deaf should just dig ditches?

She said that interior designers will need to communicate with their clients so often and that it is all about making a name out of myself. It was almost 20 years ago when that happened...I wish I never listened but I had no self confidence at all and I believed that hearing people knew better than me on how the world worked. It was from years of getting my opinions or suggestions being thrown out and people telling me that I dont know enough cuz I am deaf. The only time people really respected me and my intelligence was during sports or my art teachers.

 

[Sweetmind]

Originally Posted by jillio
Great post. I hate it when I hear a child has been told they can't do something simply because they are deaf.

YES YES!!!!! Thats very correct, Thats what it tiggers me so much about this statement that you said it all along because the extremists of deaf oralism and latened deaf people with a very negative attitude, hearing parents or hearing people kept telling me that I cant I cant because I m deaf or must not allowed for being deaf. I wish I knew at this time that I could have told them off that I can do it anything except hear or with / wo orally speaking. PAH! I have a chance to express my true inner soul that makes me so blunt for many good reasons after all they dont understand it at all. The reason is that they dont read it very well or understand the concept of language on both sides. DAMN artificial languages that I must say it aloud, no matter you like it or not! Sighs! I lost the half of my life because they messed up with my emotional and mental conditions all those childhood years that is total wrong of them doing it to these Deaf children from a start. Sighs!

Thanks for bring this up.

 

[Sweetmind]

Originally Posted by Shel90 Yea I know...I wish I knew better when I was a kid. Even when I graduated from high school, my VR counselor asked me what career I wanted to pursue and I said Interior designer and she said it wasn't an ideal career for a deaf person. Again, that crushed my self esteem. If I knew what I know now, I would have told all of those non-believers to kiss my deaf ass. LOL!

PAH! I have a chance to express my true inner soul that makes me so blunt for many good reasons after all they dont understand it at all with their own disrespectful and degradation toward someone s comment. The reason is that they dont read it very well or understand the concept of language on both sides. DAMN artificial languages is sux by hearing's domniation over Deaf 's vision language that I must say it aloud, no matter you like it or not! Sighs! I lost the half of my life because of it.

Now I am getting older and burned out from all that oppression/second class citizen discrimination for years. No one knows what I went through that people have no right to disrespect toward me. So it s quite very hard for me to get full recovery however I am doing the best I can give many positive reinforcement on many issues as I did it for a long long time. No one appreciate or respect for who I am and my rights to be who I am or my own true thoughts and feelings through my Deaf eyes.

I dont really see there is a good change that they are still wanting to use ORAL METHOD RULES as always that is a must to hear, oral speaking and no sign language in Deaf child 's lives for their sakes because they dont have a good feeling about or respect a Deaf baby from a start. It s still Hearing domination that runs your life and wont allow you for who you are that is totally wrongdoing by AUDISM people in this world. That is a very prejudicial in hearing world only. Thats what it tiggers me why should I kiss their AUDISM 's ass after all they dont have any respect for any of us from a start. Come on, wake up and stop this crapola to conform those Deaf children into a Hearing child. Sighs!

Why should we are bargining with them all along that I could not understand this anymore? After all we have our human rights for who we are from a start. Also, we Deafies have the rights to live in this diverse world as well as we are being punished for being deaf and have the plight of Deaf people for years and years.

These are A BIG MIXED FEELINGS and MESSAGES to these Deaf children that they taught them to be mixed it all up in their Deaf's mind, body , and true inner soul. Thats total degradation of our natural abilities and adaptation that is all to it. I feel that it s none of their business that we are being deaf for a reason. I felt that Medical is the one who causes more damages toward Deaf children's natural sound as usual that is not necessary from a start. At first place, we Deafies do not need to have the Medical Attention all the time if people dont mind. Deafness is not illness or disease at all. Think about it harder before you can say it to me now.

Thats the only reason is that Hearing Domination s rules that runs your Deaf lives. Oh please! Dont tell me I must to do this and that for them not for me. That is dysfunctional behaviour they have. Even though hearing devices are junky thing that damaged everyone s ears that what it tiggers me that Medical professionals/Doctors have the right to damage our Deaf ears that we already are being deaf from a start. It doesnt make any sense to me anymore.

That is how too many deafies are ending up with the dysfunctional life in hearing world that is their intention to do with us in this world anyhow.

This is not diversity yet.

Peace!


************
"Pure and Simple Natural Honest in Total Communication of love bonds between Deaf and Hearing people in this diverse world." Quote Fact of Sweetmind's Beliefs in Natural Method. It tells you that is two ways of street for Hearing and d/Deaf people.

 

[shel90]

YES YES!!!!! Thats very correct, Thats what it tiggers me so much about this statement that you said it all along because the extremists of deaf oralism and latened deaf people with a very negative attitude, hearing parents or hearing people kept telling me that I cant I cant because I m deaf or must not allowed for being deaf. I wish I knew at this time that I could have told them off that I can do it anything except hear or with / wo orally speaking. PAH! I have a chance to express my true inner soul that makes me so blunt for many good reasons after all they dont understand it at all. The reason is that they dont read it very well or understand the concept of language on both sides. DAMN artificial languages that I must say it aloud, no matter you like it or not! Sighs! I lost the half of my life because they messed up with my emotional and mental conditions all those childhood years that is total wrong of them doing it to these Deaf children from a start. Sighs!

Thanks for bring this up.

I agree with u about being able to expressing your true inner soul. I finally got to know my true self when I learned ASL and became involved with the deaf community. It was like I was being freed when all of my life I felt something was missing or felt restrained. I grew up being scared of expressing my thoughts or speaking up for myself because I didnt believe in myself due to many hearing people telling me that I am wrong or I cant do this because of my deafness. I am so happy that I found ASL and the deaf community. I dont mind interacting with the hearing world but not FULL time!!! I need both.

 

[sr171soars]

Stimulating the cochlear nerve only allows for perception to occur. Perception and cognitive processing, while interrelated, function independently of each other. Unless a child has been diagnosed and implanted at the time of birth, that child has laready begun to develop the neural pathways that dictate the manner in which they process, on a cognitive level, information available to allow them to make sense of their environment. It really doesn't matter how one casues the auditory function to be stimulated. While one may be more effective than another, both are artificial form of stimulation and are not innate characteristics.

{Dryly} Perception and cognitive processing are obviously different things. I understand what you are saying from the standpoint of neural pathways and I agree with that statement.

There is a distinct difference between what a HA can provide and what a CI can provide in terms of auditory perception. The HA can't overcome the innate distortion already "built in" the auditory processes. The CI can provide a much truer picture for the auditory processes but with one constraint against it...it can't provide as much information as regular hearing. As for this saying they are "artificial" forms of stimulus is plain malarky. A HA simply amplifies for the auditory system what it is incapable of doing for itself. So, where is the artifical aspect of it? More volume? Therefore, it brings a person up to a level of "useful" hearing but due to the distortion factors the percentage of "usefulness" varies greatly from individual to individual. On the other hand, a CI does direct stimulus on the cochlear nerve in the same way as the cochlear hairs do. Thus there is in general more consistency that a CI can provide. The difference is the number of discrete points being stimulated. Nothing artificial there either but just less information. If they came up with a CI that could stimulate approximately some 30,000 cochlear hairs, then one really get totally bogged down in a philosophical exercise "Is it live or is it memorex?". Here you would have no way to back up your statement that it is artificial one wit.

Getting back to the cognitive process bit, it is more than just simply an issue of missing information that is involved. The brain is a superb fourier analysis machine with the ability to overcome some of this. No two people in the world process cognitively the same way regardless of any "built in" limitation or not (sensory or mental). Hate to say this but nobody has a perfect brain nor does anybody have all five senses as perfect either. Get any two normal hearing people together and they learn differently and the same of any to totally deaf people. It is not related to the sensory "per se" but much more related to the mental facilities that utilize the sensory input. This explains more persuasively of why there is such variances in outcomes of any given individual. The best of all outcomes for every individual educationally is tailor made individualized learning environment. Obviously, this will never happen as the cost is enormous and everything we do today would have to be overhauled in ways that boggles the mind. So, we stick to the greatest good the greatest number.

 

[shel90]

{Dryly} Perception and cognitive processing are obviously different things. I understand what you are saying from the standpoint of neural pathways and I agree with that statement.

There is a distinct difference between what a HA can provide and what a CI can provide in terms of auditory perception. The HA can't overcome the innate distortion already "built in" the auditory processes. The CI can provide a much truer picture for the auditory processes but with one constraint against it...it can't provide as much information as regular hearing. As for this saying they are "artificial" forms of stimulus is plain malarky. A HA simply amplifies for the auditory system what it is incapable of doing for itself. So, where is the artifical aspect of it? More volume? Therefore, it brings a person up to a level of "useful" hearing but due to the distortion factors the percentage of "usefulness" varies greatly from individual to individual. On the other hand, a CI does direct stimulus on the cochlear nerve in the same way as the cochlear hairs do. Thus there is in general more consistency that a CI can provide. The difference is the number of discrete points being stimulated. Nothing artificial there either but just less information. If they came up with a CI that could stimulate approximately some 30,000 cochlear hairs, then one really get totally bogged down in a philosophical exercise "Is it live or is it memorex?". Here you would have no way to back up your statement that it is artificial one wit.

Getting back to the cognitive process bit, it is more than just simply an issue of missing information that is involved. The brain is a superb fourier analysis machine with the ability to overcome some of this. No two people in the world process cognitively the same way regardless of any "built in" limitation or not (sensory or mental). Hate to say this but nobody has a perfect brain nor does anybody have all five senses as perfect either. Get any two normal hearing people together and they learn differently and the same of any to totally deaf people. It is not related to the sensory "per se" but much more related to the mental facilities that utilize the sensory input. This explains more persuasively of why there is such variances in outcomes of any given individual. The best of all outcomes for every individual educationally is tailor made individualized learning environment. Obviously, this will never happen as the cost is enormous and everything we do today would have to be overhauled in ways that boggles the mind. So, we stick to the greatest good the greatest number.

This is exactly why I believe that deaf children should be exposed to both (visual and auditory) languages.

 

[jillio]

Bingo! Thank you very much for saying it. Now think hard to look back to this life of Martha Vineyard, Deaf and Hearing people have no problem and dont treat each other from the bittered negative attitude about our deafness. I am very sure there are no hearing devices at all. Hearing people dont even think about our deafness while they mingled each other every day. Everybody spoke their hands to each other that works out so well. Thats positive reinforcement that I want it back into our lives again. No more excuses!

It s all about business to make $$$$$$$$$$$ power, control and power over our deafness. Whats more hearing people refused to work with us from a start since they are still having an attitude toward Deaf people in this society. So what is so good about hearing device after all we dont hear everything? It is just not making any sense to me anymore.

(I hope it works with italics and black bold on your comment that I want to point that out.) That's the problem in today's world that we are still struggled not to have a good English written or orally speaking to be perfect as they are expecting us to do for years without ASL and Signed English not SEE as BI BI languages. Thats how I see what's the point for us to have the enforcement for us to hear and speak for their hearing s sake after all they made too many mistakes for years and years. I feel why should I allowed them to conform or manipulate or force me to do this and that is not a great idea to have those dysfunctional issues in our deafness that they did created to make it look like it s US Deafies. It is very offensive to me and many Deaf children. So what s their excuse!

That 's a big turn off in a big time on the adveristment board to be shown.

I just cant believe people are tolerating this kind of attitude and abusive behaviors to be continued that is not a good change at all. Thats why I am very outspoken about this in a big time that bothers me for a long time. Guess what it s no different from Sexual abuse 's attitude as well as of hoping that you understand what I am trying to say.

Peace!

I'm glad you brought up Martha's Vineyard, Sweetmind. There is a village in Bali, Indonesia that is identical to the community of Martha's Vineyard. Hearing and Deaf live together, everyone signs, and deafness is not viewed as an imapirment or something that needs to be corrected. In fact, they have a saying: "Kolock + inget = masyarakat." Translated, that means, Deaf + hearing = community. Sign is the primary language, and it is not regarded as less important or valuable than oral language. In fact, it is regarded as the base of oral language.

 

[jillio]

YES YES!!!!! Thats very correct, Thats what it tiggers me so much about this statement that you said it all along because the extremists of deaf oralism and latened deaf people with a very negative attitude, hearing parents or hearing people kept telling me that I cant I cant because I m deaf or must not allowed for being deaf. I wish I knew at this time that I could have told them off that I can do it anything except hear or with / wo orally speaking. PAH! I have a chance to express my true inner soul that makes me so blunt for many good reasons after all they dont understand it at all. The reason is that they dont read it very well or understand the concept of language on both sides. DAMN artificial languages that I must say it aloud, no matter you like it or not! Sighs! I lost the half of my life because they messed up with my emotional and mental conditions all those childhood years that is total wrong of them doing it to these Deaf children from a start. Sighs!

Thanks for bring this up.

**nodding agreement** I don't understand how people can see that deaf kids are into their adult years before they are able to even begin developing their identity when they have been raised sithout thier language by birthright, and then say, "We did everything we could for that child". Its just BS, plain and simple.

 

[jillio]

{Dryly} Perception and cognitive processing are obviously different things. I understand what you are saying from the standpoint of neural pathways and I agree with that statement.

There is a distinct difference between what a HA can provide and what a CI can provide in terms of auditory perception. The HA can't overcome the innate distortion already "built in" the auditory processes. The CI can provide a much truer picture for the auditory processes but with one constraint against it...it can't provide as much information as regular hearing. As for this saying they are "artificial" forms of stimulus is plain malarky. A HA simply amplifies for the auditory system what it is incapable of doing for itself. So, where is the artifical aspect of it? More volume? Therefore, it brings a person up to a level of "useful" hearing but due to the distortion factors the percentage of "usefulness" varies greatly from individual to individual. On the other hand, a CI does direct stimulus on the cochlear nerve in the same way as the cochlear hairs do. Thus there is in general more consistency that a CI can provide. The difference is the number of discrete points being stimulated. Nothing artificial there either but just less information. If they came up with a CI that could stimulate approximately some 30,000 cochlear hairs, then one really get totally bogged down in a philosophical exercise "Is it live or is it memorex?". Here you would have no way to back up your statement that it is artificial one wit.

Getting back to the cognitive process bit, it is more than just simply an issue of missing information that is involved. The brain is a superb fourier analysis machine with the ability to overcome some of this. No two people in the world process cognitively the same way regardless of any "built in" limitation or not (sensory or mental). Hate to say this but nobody has a perfect brain nor does anybody have all five senses as perfect either. Get any two normal hearing people together and they learn differently and the same of any to totally deaf people. It is not related to the sensory "per se" but much more related to the mental facilities that utilize the sensory input. This explains more persuasively of why there is such variances in outcomes of any given individual. The best of all outcomes for every individual educationally is tailor made individualized learning environment. Obviously, this will never happen as the cost is enormous and everything we do today would have to be overhauled in ways that boggles the mind. So, we stick to the greatest good the greatest number.

It isn't malarky. If it has been provided by the medical community as a form of compensation and was not a naturally occuring sensory fuction in the idividual, it is artificial. Just as artificial insemination results in a real live baby, it is still an artificially assisted conception.

 

[WBHarley]

OHHHH puhleezzeee!

 

[jillio]

{Dryly} Perception and cognitive processing are obviously different things. I understand what you are saying from the standpoint of neural pathways and I agree with that statement.

There is a distinct difference between what a HA can provide and what a CI can provide in terms of auditory perception. The HA can't overcome the innate distortion already "built in" the auditory processes. The CI can provide a much truer picture for the auditory processes but with one constraint against it...it can't provide as much information as regular hearing. As for this saying they are "artificial" forms of stimulus is plain malarky. A HA simply amplifies for the auditory system what it is incapable of doing for itself. So, where is the artifical aspect of it? More volume? Therefore, it brings a person up to a level of "useful" hearing but due to the distortion factors the percentage of "usefulness" varies greatly from individual to individual. On the other hand, a CI does direct stimulus on the cochlear nerve in the same way as the cochlear hairs do. Thus there is in general more consistency that a CI can provide. The difference is the number of discrete points being stimulated. Nothing artificial there either but just less information. If they came up with a CI that could stimulate approximately some 30,000 cochlear hairs, then one really get totally bogged down in a philosophical exercise "Is it live or is it memorex?". Here you would have no way to back up your statement that it is artificial one wit.

Getting back to the cognitive process bit, it is more than just simply an issue of missing information that is involved. The brain is a superb fourier analysis machine with the ability to overcome some of this. No two people in the world process cognitively the same way regardless of any "built in" limitation or not (sensory or mental). Hate to say this but nobody has a perfect brain nor does anybody have all five senses as perfect either. Get any two normal hearing people together and they learn differently and the same of any to totally deaf people. It is not related to the sensory "per se" but much more related to the mental facilities that utilize the sensory input. This explains more persuasively of why there is such variances in outcomes of any given individual. The best of all outcomes for every individual educationally is tailor made individualized learning environment. Obviously, this will never happen as the cost is enormous and everything we do today would have to be overhauled in ways that boggles the mind. So, we stick to the greatest good the greatest number.

And actually, the actual cognitive proccessing follows very predictable paths and does not vary from individual to individual unless sensory inforamtion is involved. It is the interpretation of the cognitive process that allows for variation.

 

[jillio]

OHHHH puhleezzeee!

There's a well thought out response.

 

[Capmeister]

And actually, the actual cognitive proccessing follows very predictable paths and does not vary from individual to individual unless sensory inforamtion is involved. It is the interpretation of the cognitive process that allows for variation.

Without getting too heavy into epistemology here, the brain forms concepts using perceptions of the world from sensory input and while a hearing person and a deaf person both form concepts in the same way (assuming here no brain-physiology difference in general), the input will be different because there are different sensory inputs at play here.

At its best, concept formation is based on the data of sense experience and when one of the senses is lacking, the concepts will be slightly different than if not. Simple example: To a deaf person a bird is a small animal which flys about, pecks at the ground, sits in a tree opening and closing its mouth, etc. To a hearing person that is all true and mostly the same. Except the opening and closing of the bird's mouth for a hearing person usually means the bird is singing--it makes noise. Same entity--same characteristics--slightly different perceptions.

Now, someone with a CI will hear the bird--now they're getting the extra sense, which is amazing. Does it sound like a hearing person would hear it? Somewhat. Somewhat not. Slight difference to some, big difference to many. And with time it might change. Depends on the age of the person when they got the CI, I'd bet. The ability of a deaf person to intergrate their new sensory data is going to differ.

 

[jillio]

Without getting too heavy into epistemology here, the brain forms concepts using perceptions of the world from sensory input and while a hearing person and a deaf person both form concepts in the same way (assuming here no brain-physiology difference in general), the input will be different because there are different sensory inputs at play here.

At its best, concept formation is based on the data of sense experience and when one of the senses is lacking, the concepts will be slightly different than if not. Simple example: To a deaf person a bird is a small animal which flys about, pecks at the ground, sits in a tree opening and closing its mouth, etc. To a hearing person that is all true and mostly the same. Except the opening and closing of the bird's mouth for a hearing person usually means the bird is singing--it makes noise. Same entity--same characteristics--slightly different perceptions.

Now, someone with a CI will hear the bird--now they're getting the extra sense, which is amazing. Does it sound like a hearing person would hear it? Somewhat. Somewhat not. Slight difference to some, big difference to many. And with time it might change. Depends on the age of the person when they got the CI, I'd bet. The ability of a deaf person to intergrate their new sensory data is going to differ.

By George, I think he's got it!

 

[R2D2]

Now, someone with a CI will hear the bird--now they're getting the extra sense, which is amazing. Does it sound like a hearing person would hear it? Somewhat. Somewhat not. Slight difference to some, big difference to many. And with time it might change. Depends on the age of the person when they got the CI, I'd bet. The ability of a deaf person to intergrate their new sensory data is going to differ.

Well I dunno how a hearing person hears a bird but I was passing a bell bird (an Australian bird) the other day in a tree and it sounded it's trill. It was so beautiful that I could cry. Who cares whether or not it sounds exactly like what a hearing person hears. It sounded good to ME.

I get sick of people wheeling out that argument. It's not an argument. Get over it guys. Technology allowing deaf people to hear (no - read that carefully "hear" not "become hearing") is just going to continue to evolve and improve.

 

[shel90]

OHHHH puhleezzeee!

Have any input?

 

[shel90]

Well I dunno how a hearing person hears a bird but I was passing a bell bird (an Australian bird) the other day in a tree and it sounded it's trill. It was so beautiful that I could cry. Who cares whether or not it sounds exactly like what a hearing person hears. It sounded good to ME.

I get sick of people wheeling out that argument. It's not an argument. Get over it guys. Technology allowing deaf people to hear (no - read that carefully "hear" not "become hearing") is just going to continue to evolve and improve.

That's cool.

 

[Capmeister]

Well I dunno how a hearing person hears a bird but I was passing a bell bird (an Australian bird) the other day in a tree and it sounded it's trill. It was so beautiful that I could cry. Who cares whether or not it sounds exactly like what a hearing person hears. It sounded good to ME.

Well, that is supremely cool!

I get sick of people wheeling out that argument. It's not an argument. Get over it guys. Technology allowing deaf people to hear (no - read that carefully "hear" not "become hearing") is just going to continue to evolve and improve.

Hope so. And I applaud its use. But it's not right for every deaf person (or wrong for every deaf person) nor are those without it "broken and needing to be fixed."

For all I know--you're probably hearing that bird much the same. And sincerely, I think that's fantastic. I hope to marry and have kids someday and if my child was born deaf, and could have a CI, I'd probably go for it. Ultimately, if it doesn't work, it need not be used. But I'll also teach my kids to sign as they learn to talk (before, really, since they'd be able to sign before they can speak).

I think the anti-CI movement is wrong. I just want to remind people that some deaf people are happy as they are, and don't WANT to hear.

 

[shel90]

Well, that is supremely cool!



Hope so. And I applaud its use. But it's not right for every deaf person (or wrong for every deaf person) nor are those without it "broken and needing to be fixed."

For all I know--you're probably hearing that bird much the same. And sincerely, I think that's fantastic. I hope to marry and have kids someday and if my child was born deaf, and could have a CI, I'd probably go for it. Ultimately, if it doesn't work, it need not be used. But I'll also teach my kids to sign as they learn to talk (before, really, since they'd be able to sign before they can speak).

I think the anti-CI movement is wrong. I just want to remind people that some deaf people are happy as they are, and don't WANT to hear.[/QUOTE]

Thank u! I am happy with the way I am and I have no desire in getting a CI unless I get a job that requires me to use spoken language at all times. My brother is happy not hearing at all cuz he hates sounds. Just like some deaf people are happy with their CIs like my new aide.

 

[Boult]

Thank u! I am happy with the way I am and I have no desire in getting a CI unless I get a job that requires me to use spoken language at all times. My brother is happy not hearing at all cuz he hates sounds. Just like some deaf people are happy with their CIs like my new aide.

This is NOT a good reason to get CI. Since you are adult already, it has to be your desire to hear and be willing to make it work for you. If you are not willing to make it work for you then don't get it at all.