Why the World Hates the US?

[dreamchaser]

No. not "Germans." We arrested mostly Nazi officers who are responsible for their roles in abhorrent Holocaust. Like you said - war = soldiers fight against soldiers. Nazi did not do that.

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I'm sorry but UN does not dictate each country's action. There is no "UN Law" - They are merely an arbitrators for common agreements with the countries such as Geneva Convention.

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Did you forget? President George Bush, Sr. let him go. We destroyed much of his military capability and put a harsh economic sanction on his country. We thought he's not going to pose a threat again. For god's sake - WILL YOU PLEASE STOP SAYING ARREST? There is no such as "arrest" in war. It is NO ONE'S legal responsibility to arrest other nation's figure unless you are Interpol agent serving an arrest warrant by UN War Tribunal Court - Remember Slobodan Milošević?

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I have listened to both sides and I have not seen any evidence of illegal war. President Bush acted within his Constitutional Rights which was an Executive Order to defended his country. Do not confuse Kofi Annan with UN. It is Kofi Annan's opinion that it was illegal, not UN. SHOW ME THE ACTUAL LEGAL PROCEEDING THAT HAS CHARGED BUSH OF A WAR CRIME IF THIS WAR WAS IN FACT ILLEGAL. All you showed me is some links to journalists. ThinkProgress? lawl. Washington Post? llawwwwllllll.

From your UN link you gave me - there are bunch of quotes that Saddam failed to heed -

SECURITY COUNCIL HOLDS IRAQ IN ‘MATERIAL BREACH’ OF DISARMAMENT OBLIGATIONS, OFFERS FINAL CHANCE TO COMPLY, UNANIMOUSLY ADOPTING RESOLUTION 1441 (2002)

Iraq War - 2003

"By the unanimous adoption of resolution 1441 (2002), the Council instructed the resumed inspections to begin within 45 days, and also decided it would convene immediately upon the receipt of any reports from inspection authorities that Iraq was interfering with their activities. It recalled, in that context, that the Council had repeatedly warned Iraq that it would face "serious consequences" as a result of continued violations."

"The United Kingdom’s representative said the resolution made crystal clear that Iraq was being given a final opportunity. The Iraqi regime now faced unequivocal choice: between complete disarmament and the serious consequences indicated in the resolution."

many more...

Have you read the books from the weapons inspectors who were IN COUNTRY when Bush pulled them out to start shock and awe? It is pretty compelling evidence that Sadam was comlying with all requests.

 

[Jiro]

Yes I aware it and do not deny what and how Japanese did to many countries and kill/hurt innocent people but atomic bomb to the whole kill innocent people? They should do something to Japanese soliders/Navy...

I also don't blame people for that because it's not necassary to kill innocnet people. They should arrest right one, not kill inncoent people including children... It got soliders bad nightmare... Many soliders seek therapy for the help after Iraq war.

I do not involve in anti-war protesters but I understand anti-war protesters's side. They want peace. War mean is order to kill innocent people...

Warning: It's not nice pictures to see.
U.S. Mercenaries Kill Iraqi's!

Did they are proud of kill innocent people?

The groups only support the troops for defend our country, not attack and kill innocnet in other countries. For them is dishearting to attack and kill innocnent people and also soliders killed to leave their family.

The fact is they are not proud to kill innocent people. It got them bad nightmare. It does the same with my and hubby's Grandfathers, uncles who experienced WWII... and great grandfather WWI.

If US Government disagree with something then arrest right one... not order their people to kill innocent people including children in Iraq because Iraq did not attack our countries, don't they?

I support troops for DEFENSE our country, not order them to kill inncocent people... Get it?

They are not involved for kill innocents that's why they don't feel bad. They support soliders who feel bad for kill innocents.

The fact that it's not necassary to kill innocent people.

I said that they are being order to attack and kill the innocnet people.

Why do the innocnent people including soliders have to die because of that oil...

Why can't they instead of order soliders to attack and kill innocnet people?

atomic bomb is German's program... What should US do against Japan without use German stecentist's program to build the atomic bomb? Are you saying that Atomic bomb kill inncoent people is right choice... :ee3k:?

Germany do not want to bomb Japan but America.

Yes Japan started it but they attacked only Pearl Harbor where US Army were around to kill/hurt US Army and innocents people.

America attacked all the whole Japan. They should attack Japanese Army or Navy bases, not the whole Japan to kill inncoents.

see the patterns, hmm? That's what I don't understand. Why do you keep saying our soldiers are being ordered to kill innocents???????? You are basically calling them murderers and baby killers. I don't hear you complaining about our wars in Afghanistan, Somalia, and Bosnia because we did "kill innocents" but you conveniently felt it was justified. Please CEASE the use of that abhorrent phrase. Dead innocent people are collateral damages in any conflicts - a very unfortunate thing in war but we do our VERY BEST to avoid it. That's why we spent billions of dollars in building and perfecting "smart weapons" to minimize the loss of innocent lives in any military conflicts.

We do not cluster-bomb the villages just to take out a mortar. We do not use people for suicide bombing to blow up enemy's building. We do not blow something up in middle of busy marketplaces if there is a group of enemies at the table. Capisce???

Illegal Iraq War or not - that's not an issue in here. That's the different matter. Sure Bush Administration is corrupted. Sure maybe President Bush allegedly launched attack against Iraq for its oil. Sure Sure Sure but I don't really care. I'll leave that to War Tribunal Court or whoever to sort it out and find those responsible for illegal war. Of course I'd like to see President Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney, and bunch of others being charged with war crimes and war profiteering. I applauded Congressman Dennis Kucinich's effort to impeach President Bush. BUT that is not an issue in here.

My problem is that you're painting an image of our fine soldiers indiscriminately killing the innocents and having no concern for them. My other problem is - you rather choose to sit and do nothing even though if other countries are killing their own people just because you just don't want innocents to die and they have nothing to do with us unless they attacked us. Even for a good cause like liberating people from tyrannical government, there will always be some INNOCENTS who will die in any military conflicts.

The worst hypocrisy you could do to us and especially to yourself is by working for US Army and earning paycheck from them while denouncing them for killing innocents as you repeatedly claimed. MILITARY = YOU ARE IN BUSINESS OF KILLING, NOT ARRESTING! Do yourself a favor and work for an organization that is in business of preserving any human life - that'll make your position and opinion more credible. By working for US Army while speaking out against war and decrying that our soldiers are indiscriminately killing innocents - you are insulting your fellow US soldiers - no matter if they think Iraq War is illegal.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

see the patterns, hmm? That's what I don't understand. Why do you keep saying our soldiers are being ordered to kill innocents????????

What I said in my previous post is correct because I did not call them as a murder or killer. All what I saw all you showed is "are being ordered to kill innocnets" and ask questions for you all to answer... which mean I want you to answer my question... what I question you all doesn´t mean that I accuse or insult anything... Did you know what "question" mean? And show the links and explain why anti-war groups want to stop soliders for go to Iraq because some ADers asked me question... Why can´t I answer their questions and explain why? I am not involve with anti-war group but take both sides and explain and answer their question or answer my question... I am polite to answer their questions or ask questions, why can´t you and some ADers do the same then?

All what I asked you to show me where I called them as a murder or killer... I do not find anything where you showed me that I called them as a murder or killer or babykiller... I do not see anything that I insult and accuse solider as a murder but QUESTION to you all...
Liebling´s post
Can you show me where I call soldier or you as a murder? It would be insult and offensive if I call solider a murderer or killer. It´s not my type to call soliders murderer or killer because they are being order to kill enemies and innocent people. It is also not my type to call solider as a coward because it´s their reason for not want to accept the order to kill enemies and innocnent people. It´s not insult if I call war or death penalty itself as a murder or No War itself as a coward because I did not call a person as murder or coward... Get the difference?

What I said is correct... It´s false statement of you to accuse me to call solider a murder or killer or baby killer... It´s not me but you.

You are basically calling them murderers and baby killers.

This is a false statement of you.

I don't hear you complaining about our wars in Afghanistan, Somalia, and Bosnia because we did "kill innocents" but you conveniently felt it was justified. Please CEASE the use of that abhorrent phrase. Dead innocent people are collateral damages in any conflicts - a very unfortunate thing in war but we do our VERY BEST to avoid it. That's why we spent billions of dollars in building and perfecting "smart weapons" to minimize the loss of innocent lives in any military conflicts.

Yes I mentioned what I viewed about war issues in different threads in the past.

I only post to answer what the title of thread is about... but most threads are about Iraq war.

Illegal Iraq War or not - that's not an issue in here. That's the different matter. Sure Bush Administration is corrupted. Sure maybe President Bush allegedly launched attack against Iraq for its oil. Sure Sure Sure but I don't really care. I'll leave that to War Tribunal Court or whoever to sort it out and find those responsible for illegal war. Of course I'd like to see President Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney, and bunch of others being charged with war crimes and war profiteering. I applauded Congressman Dennis Kucinich's effort to impeach President Bush. BUT that is not an issue in here.

I care about soliders and innocnent people. We want to impeach Bush for that. All what you say is you don´t care...

My problem is that you're painting an image of our fine soldiers indiscriminately killing the innocents and having no concern for them.

No, it´s your problem is misinterpreted my post. I said they are being order to kill innocnent which mean that they are being force when they do not really want it. It got them nightmare... they suffer very badly. It does the same with my Grandad who had been through WWII and suffer nightmare for kill innocents. I support soliders and my Grandad because I know it´s not their fault. Your written shown that you don´t care about soliders and innocent but support Government and law.

My other problem is - you rather choose to sit and do nothing even though if other countries are killing their own people just because you just don't want innocents to die and they have nothing to do with us unless they attacked us. Even for a good cause like liberating people from tyrannical government, there will always be some INNOCENTS who will die in any military conflicts.

There´re innocnents people who risk life to rapist, murder, road accidents, plane accidents, any accidents everyday... not just terrorist attack... :roll: Why spend billion $$$$$ for over thousands soliders killed and also innocent people including children as well. Billion $$$ should go to health system and help victims, etc., not spend on war issues... :roll:

The worst hypocrisy you could do to us

Nope, you are hypocrisy, not me... You support death penalty for kill innocents and find okay for Bush to send soliders to attack other countries and kill inncoents and also solider´s death as well.... You said nothing for want death penalty for Bush.. :roll:

and especially to yourself is by working for US Army and earning paycheck from them while denouncing them for killing innocents as you repeatedly claimed.

This is very stupid and ignorant, I ever read... I work for US Army and support soliders. What you think is not my problem. Do you want to call soliders hypocrisy for not want to go Iraq war when they work for US Army and not for Iraq war?

MILITARY = YOU ARE IN BUSINESS OF KILLING, NOT ARRESTING! Do yourself a favor and work for an organization that is in business of preserving any human life - that'll make your position and opinion more credible. By working for US Army while speaking out against war and decrying that our soldiers are indiscriminately killing innocents - you are insulting your fellow US soldiers - no matter if they think Iraq War is illegal.

wow, you really have no idea what you are saying here... I have soliders everyday and know their experiences... Yes, they feel really bad for kill innocents. They suffer nightmares... I know what it is about because my Grandad, my hubby´s Grandad, .... more war survivors said very same thing... who had been throught WWI; WWII; Vitmainesse, Japan, Bosaia, Afghanistan, etc. etc. etc. I support them and know that it´s not fault. Yes, I blame Bush for soliders´death. All what you accused me for call them murderer, babykiller, etc... is very narrow mind and ignorant.. to misinterpret my posts. It´s your own word... not my word. What you saying is really terrible... You should ashamed yourself for deny solider´s experiences here. It look like that you support war and don´t care about soliders... *shake my head *



Dreamchaser, for pulled florencegale182´s post.

 

[GarnetTigerMom]

we know the topic is about why the world hate us. I think it not the world that doing the hating, it the people who doing the hating to each other. I think that America brings hate upon itself. By trying to be better at everything than everyone else the situation is only manipulated. Any foreigner who was “pro American” before 9/11 yet dislikes us after we started defending ourselves needs to seriously reconsider what it means to be pro American. But lot of people love us as a perpetual victim, it seems.

 

[Byrdie714]

And it seems that people are forgetting that we are also a capitalist society. :roll:

 

[GarnetTigerMom]

And it seems that people are forgetting that we are also a capitalist society. :roll:

Yep that too, it sad isn't it?

 

[Byrdie714]

Yep that too, it sad isn't it?

Nope. I like making money!

 

[Jiro]

UGH. More double-talks from Liebling... it's futile to intelligently argue with you... You say you are not involved with anti-war groups but YOUR VIEW is anti-war in ALL cases. Military is in business of killing. Soldiers signed up for it, KNOWING they will kill somebody. If they have problem with that - they should sign up for Swiss Army or something else that is not in business of killing. I don't really sympathize for idiots who think they're in for some explosion fun and then they ended up being traumatized, having nightmares. They're idiots - watching too much Rambo movies.

You seriously need to lay off on death penalty issue. I'm going to say it for ONCE and ALL - REMEMBER IT EXPLICITLY. Support death penalty for innocents? Are you that dense? Did you not remember that I said I support death penalty for criminals who commit heinous crimes? Try to remember that, hmm?

I do not need to prove that you said they are murderers. Your reasoning and patterns SHOWED it.

Why can´t I answer their questions and explain why? I am not involve with anti-war group but take both sides and explain and answer their question or answer my question... I am polite to answer their questions or ask questions, why can´t you and some ADers do the same then?

Your answer was misleading and disrespectful. You could have said it differently and CAREFULLY but no - you had to spout around saying why kill innocents? why waste money on it? our soldiers are killing many innocents.

I care about soliders and innocnent people. We want to impeach Bush for that. All what you say is you don´t care...

that's a cute double-talk and obfuscation. This is my previous quote -

That's why we spent billions of dollars in building and perfecting "smart weapons" to minimize the loss of innocent lives in any military conflicts.

Sure Sure Sure but I don't really care. I'll leave that to War Tribunal Court or whoever to sort it out and find those responsible for illegal war. Of course I'd like to see President Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney, and bunch of others being charged with war crimes and war profiteering. I applauded Congressman Dennis Kucinich's effort to impeach President Bush.

I said I do not care because it is confusing and it is easy to pass judgment when you do not have all the facts together. That's why I said to leave it to War Tribunal Court or Senatorial Hearing to sort it out. Did I not say that I want Bush impeached too? How do you care for both soldiers and innocent people at same time? It's oxymoronic to support soldiers while you're against wars because of innocent people. Basically - you're anti-war, anti-death penalty. In other word - you are PRO-LIFE in any cases - you're in business of preserving a human life. However, you are in business of killing, ok? You are working for US Army who is in business of killing, ok? You are fixing our soldiers for them to go back to war and kill some more, ok? So cease your careless remarks.

You know what this is like? A priest who supports abortion. A hunter who thinks hunting is cruel. A nun who sleeps around because she's just doing God's work - "Be Fruitful and Multiply." A biological weapon scientists who thinks war is bad. A weapon designer who thinks killing is wrong. GET IT?


You need to clarify your statement. Why are soldiers being ordered to kill innocents? How is that allowable??? Did they just walk into busy marketplace and spray machine guns at them? drove tanks over them? MAYBE you are confusing our soldiers with these idiot mercenaries.

 

[Reba]

Nope. I like making money!

Don't we all!

 

[Liebling:-)))]

... You say you are not involved with anti-war groups

Yes I am an anti-war... I already said dozen of times in the past but I do not involved to protest to the public with war groups.... Get it?

but YOUR VIEW is anti-war in ALL cases.

Yes, that´s why I support Soliders because I know their experiences.

Military is in business of killing.

You make soliders look bad... soliders are not mafia. No, military is not business of killing. They risk their life to defend and protect the people and country against enemies... It could be happen when they including innocents people killed.

Soldiers signed up for it, KNOWING they will kill somebody.

Wrong, they signed up for it, KNOWING they will RISK their life for try to defend and protect the people.

I don't really sympathize for idiots who think they're in for some explosion fun and then they ended up being traumatized, having nightmares. They're idiots - watching too much Rambo movies.

Do you call my Granddad, my hubby´s Grandfather and soliders idiots because they suffered traumatized, having nightmares because they were there at war? War is fun? This is disgusit and insult, I ever read.

You seriously need to lay off on death penalty issue. I'm going to say it for ONCE and ALL - REMEMBER IT EXPLICITLY. Support death penalty for innocents? Are you that dense? Did you not remember that I said I support death penalty for criminals who commit heinous crimes? Try to remember that, hmm?

No matter... kill soliders and innocents.. Kill is Kill ... That´s it.

I do not need to prove that you said they are murderers. Your reasoning and patterns SHOWED it.

Your narrow-mind is the problem.

Your answer was misleading and disrespectful. You could have said it differently and CAREFULLY but no - you had to spout around saying why kill innocents? why waste money on it? our soldiers are killing many innocents.

I already said that many soliders got nightmare for kill many innocents several posts for years... Use your good common sense when I said soliders are being order to kill many soliders... Use logical... because you know many soliders refuse to go Iraq war. Logical!!!

that's a cute double-talk and obfuscation. This is my previous quote -

I can see you has the problem... I really feel sorry for you.

How do you care for both soldiers and innocent people at same time?

I am sorry that you can´t get it... yes I do because I know soliders because I see them everyday. If you can´t get it then I can´t help you.

It's oxymoronic to support soldiers while you're against wars because of innocent people.

No, it´s not just innocent people but also soliders as well.

Basically - you're anti-war, anti-death penalty.

Yes I am but I do not protest or use nasty names on them like what you did .

In other word - you are PRO-LIFE in any cases - you're in business of preserving a human life.

me pro-life? You has no idea... I would suggest you to re-read my posts at other threads about pro-choice and pro-life...

However, you are in business of killing, ok? You are working for US Army who is in business of killing, ok? You are fixing our soldiers for them to go back to war and kill some more, ok? So cease your careless remarks.

You wrong... You would offend soliders for label "business of killing". It´s an insult word. soliders are not mafia.

You know what this is like? A priest who supports abortion. A hunter who thinks hunting is cruel. A nun who sleeps around because she's just doing God's work - "Be Fruitful and Multiply." A biological weapon scientists who thinks war is bad. A weapon designer who thinks killing is wrong. GET IT?

You need to clarify your statement. Why are soldiers being ordered to kill innocents? How is that allowable??? Did they just walk into busy marketplace and spray machine guns at them? drove tanks over them? MAYBE you are confusing our soldiers with these idiot mercenaries.

No, I don´t get it because your post make no sense... You really have no idea what you are saying...

No, you should use common sense in positive way, but all what I read your negative common sense is misinterpreted my posts, accuse and insult me... I viewed about war issues for years remain unchanged... Nobody complaint but respect my view but you and some war-supporters? Soliders and co-workers also know my view about war and respect me for that... as the same I respect them for that... that´s why we get along well... You and some war-supporters were upset with me for my questions... explanation, etc... You has to face that each person is different and have different view on war issues. You cannot force me to follow or give you right... What I view war issues remain unchanged, period. Why just me? I would suggest you go back and re-read the whole thread from 1st page and other war threads ....

 

[Liebling:-)))]

I don't really sympathize for idiots who think they're in for some explosion fun and then they ended up being traumatized, having nightmares. They're idiots - watching too much Rambo movies.

Do you mean pride/proud soliders? If yes, then I would agree with you but I prefer to not label them as idiots because it's an insult word. I prefer to say that they should keep themselves instead of brag to the public for want to go Iraq war, or insult soliders who have their reason for refuse to go Iraq war as coward, chicken, etc. next time.

I do not need to prove that you said they are murderers. Your reasoning and patterns SHOWED it.

You said this yourself, not me.

I said I do not care because it is confusing and it is easy to pass judgment when you do not have all the facts together.

Simple is:

You don't care.
I care.

you are PRO-LIFE in any cases -

1. No, I am a pro-choice because I support troops to risk their life for defend and protect the people from any countries.

2. No, I am a pro-choice because I work for US Army and support troops.

3. No, I am a pro-choice for support abortion to save women's choice for risk life.

4. No, I am a pro-choice for respect troops for want to go war instead of protest and insult troops with terrible names.

5. No, I am a pro-choice for respect different countries's law for death penalty instead of protest and insult them as murderer/killers.

6. It doesn't mean that I am a pro-life to claim that I am an anti-war and anti-death penalty because I respect their choice.

7. No, I am a pro-choice when I am for a hunter who shot animal for meat, not for the fun (sport).

This is a Forum, we can express our view openly what we think doesnt mean that we insult them in real life, don't we?


Anyway, I would call a person as a hypocrite if they claim that she/he is a pro-life for against abortion and support war and death penalty. That's why I claim to be a pro-choice, not pro-life.

Get it?

 

[Reba]

Do you mean pride/proud soliders? If yes, then I would agree with you but I prefer to not label them as idiots because it's an insult word. I prefer to say that they should keep themselves instead of brag to the public for want to go Iraq war, or insult soliders who have their reason for refuse to go Iraq war as coward, chicken, etc. next time.

Why do you say, soldiers "should keep themselves"? I thought you supported soldiers venting?

1. No, I am a pro-choice because I support troops to risk their life for defend and protect the people from any countries.

How is that "pro-choice?" What are the options that they choose from? :confuse:

2. No, I am a pro-choice because I work for US Army and support troops.

How is that "pro-choice?" What are the options? Who is choosing what? This is totally confusing.

4. No, I am a pro-choice for respect troops for want to go war instead of protest and insult troops with terrible names.

I don't get how that is "pro-choice." If you are really pro-choice that means you equally support letting the troops choose either to go to war or refuse to go to war. Is that what you mean?

5. No, I am a pro-choice for respect different countries's law for death penalty instead of protest and insult them as murderer/killers.

If you are pro-choice about the death penalty, then it means you equally support countries that do have the death penalty, and those that don't.

6. It doesn't mean that I am a pro-life to claim that I am an anti-war and anti-death penalty because I respect their choice.

7. No, I am a pro-choice when I am for a hunter who shot animal for meat, not for the fun (sport).

It seems that you are only "pro-choice" when that choice fits your viewpoint. That's not real choice. If you are truly pro-choice, then you have be satisfied with both hunter choices, "fun" and "food".

Anyway, I would call a person as a hypocrite if they claim that she/he is a pro-life for against abortion and support war and death penalty. That's why I claim to be a pro-choice, not pro-life.

Get it?

No, I don't "get it." How can you say that you are pro-choice but still criticize the soldiers who make their "choice" to make the military a career and volunteer for multiple tours in Iraq? That is NOT "pro-choice." That is YOUR way or the highway.

I would call a person "hypocrite" if that person used an American Army computer and internet to call American soldiers "killers of innocent people" while earning a paycheck from that same American Army. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you!

 

[Jiro]

Yes I am an anti-war... I already said dozen of times in the past but I do not involved to protest to the public with war groups.... Get it?

You didn't read carefully. I said your view is anti-war even though you're fixing up soldiers and you know they're going back to war to kill some more (no not the innocents... yes the enemies but expect some collateral damages).

Yes, that´s why I support Soliders because I know their experiences.

Really? How do you know their experiences? Were you a soldier? Were you in combat zone? Hearing their stories and being in combat are different. I think you misunderstood their experiences. War is not black and white. Insurgents are not dressed with military uniform. They get traumatized because the insurgents USED the innocents as shield or bait and forced the soldiers to kill them. Also - they get traumatized by shooting at the enemies but that enemy was just a boy with AK-47. What is he supposed to do? Let that boy kills him??? It's not easy killing a little boy who is shooting you with AK-47 or wearing bomb straps.

You make soliders look bad... soliders are not mafia. No, military is not business of killing. They risk their life to defend and protect the people and country against enemies... It could be happen when they including innocents people killed.

Mafia? But you're the one who said they were being ordered to kill innocents. You're painting them as mafia hitmen. You have not clarified your statement on that issue - "they are being ordered to kill innocents." Do you realize that is a very strong accusation? That's what upsets me the most and our fellow veterans like Chase and Reba. Can you show me the proof of that accusation? The news about couple of soldiers raping little girl and murdering her and her family does not count as "being ordered to kill." I have heard of checkpoint horror stories where a car carrying a family did not stop as ordered and the soldiers had to open fire on them. they ALSO get traumatized by CONSTANT threat they have to deal with every single second of their life on the ground. They hear stories about a car carrying a family approaching to checkpoint area without slowing down and stopping and the soldiers did not want to shoot at them. Result? it exploded - a suicide bomber using his family as a cover. The soldiers at all checkpoints can't risk that chance.

If you are given an illegal order even directly from your superiors, it is your lawful duty to disobey. We tried German soldiers after WWII who often said "Well, I was just following orders." In my book - that stops being an excuse the seconds you know that those orders are wrong.

Wrong, they signed up for it, KNOWING they will RISK their life for try to defend and protect the people.

.....that's same thing. You're double-talking. When defending and protecting people, they are expected to kill somebody. Our war machines with big guns are not for decoration purpose. That's why i said military is in business of killing. I'm sorry if you misunderstood it as in business of "massacring innocents."

Do you call my Granddad, my hubby´s Grandfather and soliders idiots because they suffered traumatized, having nightmares because they were there at war? War is fun? This is disgusit and insult, I ever read.

?????? Again - you misread and misunderstood my simple quote. My quote was "I don't really sympathize for idiots who think they're in for some explosion fun and then they ended up being traumatized, having nightmares. They're idiots - watching too much Rambo movies." Get it? Most people signed up for honorable purpose and also for benefit purpose - a legitimate reason. There are handful of young people who signed up just because they thought it's cool to shoot something like they see in Rambo movies. They're an idiots. Beside.... war's ugly. What did you expect? I'd probably be traumatized and have nightmares too if I were in military. So what? it's part of the job. Everybody should be aware of it and be expected to have those when they sign up for it. Back in old time - that was a different story. They had a draft until 1970's.

No matter... kill soliders and innocents.. Kill is Kill ... That´s it.

no no it does matter. Killing soldiers and killing innocents do matter. Do not confuse enemies with innocents.

I already said that many soliders got nightmare for kill many innocents several posts for years... Use your good common sense when I said soliders are being order to kill many soliders... Use logical... because you know many soliders refuse to go Iraq war. Logical!!!

See above. A very serious accusation. Prove it.

You wrong... You would offend soliders for label "business of killing". It´s an insult word. soliders are not mafia.

uh... we did not have tanks, fighter jets, helicopters with big guns for decoration. That is designed to kill. duh?

No, you should use common sense in positive way, but all what I read your negative common sense is misinterpreted my posts, accuse and insult me...

no - my common sense and view on war is REALISTIC. Yours is not.

I viewed about war issues for years remain unchanged... Nobody complaint but respect my view but you and some war-supporters?

I complained along with Chase and Reba because you've made such strong accusation like being ordered to kill. There are many ignorant war-supporters I do not like either because their reasoning is ignorant and racist - "kill them f***king ragheads! blow them up!" At first - I supported the war because I was led to believed that Iraq had WMD. Now I'm against the war because it was a lie but that does not mean I want them out now because we're already in deep shit. That also doesn't mean I think we attacked for oil. These details do not concern me since I do not have all the facts on the table. I'll wait for legal proceedings to make a ruling out of this mess.

Do you want us to conquer Nazi in Germany and then leave Germany after war's over? Your country would be 100% communist and you'd be speaking Russian. Same thing - it is irresponsible of us to leave Iraq broken and defenseless. What can be done for now is to impeach Bush and arrest the war profiteers.

Soliders and co-workers also know my view about war and respect me for that... as the same I respect them for that... that´s why we get along well...

because you are nice and you are a civilian. These soldiers do not want to argue or dissent because by doing that - it's a treason or they may be subjected to violations of military laws. Ever considered that? Please do yourself a favor and stop talking about war issues with soldiers and your coworkers WHILE ON DUTY. Feel free to discuss about it with them during off-duty at some bars.

You and some war-supporters were upset with me for my questions... explanation, etc... You has to face that each person is different and have different view on war issues. You cannot force me to follow or give you right... What I view war issues remain unchanged, period. Why just me? I would suggest you go back and re-read the whole thread from 1st page and other war threads ....

I get upset at anti-war protesters who make such strong accusation without proof and keep harping on "killing innocents." Reasonable and educated anti-war protesters would say that it is an illegal war and they do not work for US Army. But you work for US Army and you repeatedly said "why kill innocents? they're being ordered to kill innocents" - now you see why that makes your position less credible and hypocritical? You should know better like what I said about checkpoint horror stories.

My friend is a journalist and has a very liberal political view (quite an opposite of my view but not all) and is very very very against Iraq War. We frequently have very productive debates on most issues because his view and opinions have supports to back it up but you do not. At least he's not a hypocrite by dissenting against something while earning paycheck from same thing.

 

[Jiro]

1. No, I am a pro-choice because I support troops to risk their life for defend and protect the people from any countries.
2. No, I am a pro-choice because I work for US Army and support troops.
3. No, I am a pro-choice for support abortion to save women's choice for risk life.
4. No, I am a pro-choice for respect troops for want to go war instead of protest and insult troops with terrible names.
5. No, I am a pro-choice for respect different countries's law for death penalty instead of protest and insult them as murderer/killers.
6. It doesn't mean that I am a pro-life to claim that I am an anti-war and anti-death penalty because I respect their choice.
7. No, I am a pro-choice when I am for a hunter who shot animal for meat, not for the fun (sport).

I'm sorry but these statements do not make sense and they are inconsistent. My examples were pretty clear. I'll clarify again

This is what your view is like -
1. You are a hunter but do not believe in killing animals (either for food or fun).
2. You are a soldier but think is wrong to shoot at the enemy.
3. You are a weapon manufacturer but think war is wrong and killing is wrong.
4. You are a biological weapon scientist but thinks bio-weapon is wrong
5. You are a Christian devout but thinks premarital sex is ok.
6. You are an abortion doctor but thinks it is wrong to kill a fetus/baby.

get it? inconsistent, incredible, and a hypocrite.

 

[The Highlander]

Oh poor to Germany lady.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

[/FONT][/COLOR]
I'm sorry but these statements do not make sense and they are inconsistent. My examples were pretty clear. I'll clarify again

This is what your view is like -
1. You are a hunter but do not believe in killing animals (either for food or fun).
2. You are a soldier but think is wrong to shoot at the enemy.
3. You are a weapon manufacturer but think war is wrong and killing is wrong.
4. You are a biological weapon scientist but thinks bio-weapon is wrong
5. You are a Christian devout but thinks premarital sex is ok.
6. You are an abortion doctor but thinks it is wrong to kill a fetus/baby.

get it? inconsistent, incredible, and a hypocrite.

Exactly, that´s why I said that I am a pro-choice, not pro-life... It would consider hyporcrite if I claim that I am pro-life because I am not fully pro-lifer because I support and respect their decision and choice instead of label them bad names, etc.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Why do you say, soldiers "should keep themselves"? I thought you supported soldiers venting?

Re-read Jiro´s post

Originally Posted by jiro123
I don't really sympathize for idiots who think they're in for some explosion fun and then they ended up being traumatized, having nightmares. They're idiots - watching too much Rambo movies.

I questioned him either he mean pride/proud soliders? If he answer yes, then I would agree with him and suggest them to keep themselves instead of brag everyone... (accord Jiro´s post - "watch rambo movies too much")

How is that "pro-choice?" What are the options that they choose from? :confuse:

How is that "pro-choice?" What are the options? Who is choosing what? This is totally confusing.

You know what I am talking about.

I don't get how that is "pro-choice." If you are really pro-choice that means you equally support letting the troops choose either to go to war or refuse to go to war. Is that what you mean?

Yes, when I personally disagree with war issues and respect their choice instead of label them in negative way.

If you are pro-choice about the death penalty, then it means you equally support countries that do have the death penalty, and those that don't.

I respect their law when I personally óppose the death penalty.

It´s too bad that you have the problem to see the logical.

It seems that you are only "pro-choice" when that choice fits your viewpoint. That's not real choice. If you are truly pro-choice, then you have be satisfied with both hunter choices, "fun" and "food".

If I am pro-life which mean I am against both hunter shot the animal for the meat and sport for the fun but I am pro choice because I support the hunter to shoot the animal for meat, not sport. I am not vegetarian but meat eater... Get it? If you can´t get it then I can´t help you.

No, I don't "get it." How can you say that you are pro-choice but still criticize the soldiers who make their "choice" to make the military a career and volunteer for multiple tours in Iraq? That is NOT "pro-choice." That is YOUR way or the highway.

It´s too bad that you are too much bitter to see the logical. I has the right to express my feeling and view on war issues, no matter either you like or not. This Forum is the public for debate.

I would call a person "hypocrite" if that person used an American Army computer and internet to call American soldiers "killers of innocent people" while earning a paycheck from that same American Army. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you!

I really feel sorry for you... Of course, I know you don´t like to hear when I say that you are a hyprocrite because you are against abortion and support death penalty and war... that´s why you are bitter toward me. Yes, you are bitter because I do not support war itself and disagree with war itself.

I do not need to repeat since I explained in my previous post yesterday about soliders feel bad for kill innocent people. You has no idea what and how soliders had through... You don´t care about them but yourself. All what you want to picture them as pride/proud soliders... That´s it. I accept what they are as long as they do not brags but need my support. I can see that you think yourself and like to provoke and tried to put ADers down. I had been polite with your bitter and obsess posts. Enough for now, I have nothing to say because I do not wish to repeat circle....

Oh yes, You complaint about anti-war supporters for put soliders down in previous posts... You when I showed you the links and explained why anti-war group are not for war. Now look at your own post... *shake my head* It´s bad when you don´t like my view over war issues... This is my POV... no matter either you like or not. Have you seen me bitter toward you as war-supporter? Nope, but respect you. Where is your respect on my POV but bitter, obsess and - all what you want to see after my job, not me as person who have feeling? Shame you! It doesn´t mean that I MUST agree ALL THE TIME because I work for US Army. Question: Do you must agree with US Government all the time because you live in America? This forum is the public, we all share/express our POV, no matter either you like or not... but do not need to take my posts personally. You don´t bother to say that it´s not okay for pride/proud soliders label soliders for refuse to go Iraq war as chicken or coward... ? You don´t bother to support some solider ADer vent/rant their feeling over their experience at other threads. All what you get is complaint... and You ignored solider ADer´s venting/ranting at other threads and when solider said that he want to go Iraq war... That´s it. I can´t image that you are a true christian as what you claim in other threads... All what I see through you is a hyprocrite. Due to all the respect, I do not wish to debate with you like this... All what I want to debate with agree to disagree in polite way...

I would consider myself as a hyprocrite when I claim that I am pro-lifer because Jiro123 think I am a pro-lifer which is not true... I explained him why I am not full pro-lifer because I support half and half which mean that I am a pro-choice. I thought you know what pro-choice is about...I thought Jillos convinced you the difference between pro-choice and pro-life at other thread. It´s not full pro-lifer when you are against abortion and support death penalty and war. It´s full pro-lifer if you are against everything...

 

[Jiro]

I questioned him either he mean pride/proud soliders? If he answer yes, then I would agree with him and suggest them to keep themselves instead of brag everyone... (accord Jiro´s post - "watch rambo movies too much")

I'm not exactly sure what do you mean "pride/proud" soldier. I thought I made myself clear. I'm just saying there are handful of soldiers who joined just for "fun" - a joy of killing and blowing stuff up but ended up being traumatized because it wasn't what they thought as it'd be like in movies.

It´s too bad that you have the problem to see the logical.

But you have failed to see a flaw in your reasoning as we all pointed out.

I do not need to repeat since I explained in my previous post yesterday about soliders feel bad for kill innocent people. You has no idea what and how soliders had through...

Don't we all? that's being human. If they don't feel bad - they must be a psychopath. But you do not have any idea what and how the soldiers go thru either!!! Just because you worked with them does not mean you know better. Several of my close friends and family members are patriotic soldiers but does that mean I know better?

You don´t care about them but yourself. All what you want to picture them as pride/proud soliders... That´s it. I accept what they are as long as they do not brags but need my support.

I don't care about them but myself? I don't care about my good friend who died in Iraq and came home in a pine box? I don't care about my close friend who barely survived in Afghanistan and came home with PTSD? I see.... They are certainly not bragging about it because it wasn't pretty and cool like a Rambo movie.

Oh yes, You complaint about anti-war supporters for put soliders down in previous posts... You when I showed you the links and explained why anti-war group are not for war.

Because you use them that almost sound like facts/proof which we had to correct you. For example - you showed us link of U.S. mercenaries indiscriminately killing innocents on the subject of Iraq War relating to our soldiers. Why bring that up? How is that related to our soldiers? Are you putting our soldiers on same level as these dirty mercenaries - indiscriminately killing the innocents?

It doesn´t mean that I MUST agree ALL THE TIME because I work for US Army. Question: Do you must agree with US Government all the time because you live in America?

But how can you in your good conscience continue to work for an organization that is against your belief? US Army has LONG been killing in every wars for many years - either by retaliation or by special interests! You said - you only support troops just for defense purpose. Well you're in wrong business! You should be working for Swiss Army! You have a very strong opinion in war issue and yet you are working for and paid by OUR MILITARY! It's like a nurse who is very against abortion but works for abortion doctor or a person who does not believe in slaughtering animals but buys steaks! Why did you choose to work for US Army? Why not Swiss Army? Red Cross? They share exactly same value and belief as you. When you work for US Army, you do not have a privilege of saying things like "why kill innocents?" It makes yourself look like a hypocrite.

You don´t bother to support some solider ADer vent/rant their feeling over their experience at other threads. All what you get is complaint... and You ignored solider ADer´s venting/ranting at other threads and when solider said that he want to go Iraq war... That´s it.

Who?

I can´t image that you are a true christian as what you claim in other threads...

FYI - I'm a Buddhist...

I would consider myself as a hyprocrite when I claim that I am pro-lifer because Jiro123 think I am a pro-lifer which is not true... I explained him why I am not full pro-lifer because I support half and half which mean that I am a pro-choice. I thought you know what pro-choice is about...I thought Jillos convinced you the difference between pro-choice and pro-life at other thread. It´s not full pro-lifer when you are against abortion and support death penalty and war. It´s full pro-lifer if you are against everything...

I was not referring "Pro-Life" to abortion context but what I meant about that is that you do not support the termination of life by any means. For example - you do not support abortion unless mother's health is in danger. You do not support death penalty for whatever the reason - even Hitler. You do not support war unless for defense purpose. You do not support hunting unless it's for food.

Get it? Your stance is consistent with Pro-Life and largely Pro-Life.You are not a whole-fully pro-choice. I am not a pro-life because I support abortion and death penalty. There's no but like "I support abortion but only if mother's life is in danger." I support abortion and should be left entirely up to woman's choice to do whatever she wants with her womb. You do not - you choose to severely limit it. That is not a good definition of pro-choice. It's more like you are a Pro-Life but little bit of Pro-Choice.

All we're doing is correcting your stance and reasoning but we got offended by your anti-war remarks when you are working for and paid by Army. Mind you - just please be considerate and try not to discuss about anti-war subjects with any soldiers because they can get dishonorable discharged.

 

[KarissaMann05]

What a super-hot debate!

 

[Reba]

You know what I am talking about.

I honestly don't. I've never heard the term "pro-choice" used in that way. I don't understand what war and hunting have to do with "pro-choice".

Yes, when I personally disagree with war issues and respect their choice instead of label them in negative way.

Constantly referring to American soldiers as killers of innocents is very negative, and not at all respectful.

If I am pro-life which mean I am against both hunter shot the animal for the meat and sport for the fun but I am pro choice because I support the hunter to shoot the animal for meat, not sport. I am not vegetarian but meat eater... Get it? If you can´t get it then I can´t help you.

Yes, I get it. If you are truly pro-choice, then it means you allow the hunter himself to choose the reason that he hunts, right?

It's still confusing though. "Pro-life" refers to human life, so I don't get the connection with hunters killing animals. Oh, well, that's off-topic anyway.

It´s too bad that you are too much bitter to see the logical. I has the right to express my feeling and view on war issues, no matter either you like or not. This Forum is the public for debate.

I never said that you couldn't express your feelings in this forum. Of course, I can express my feelings in this forum also.

I really feel sorry for you... Of course, I know you don´t like to hear when I say that you are a hyprocrite because you are against abortion and support death penalty and war... that´s why you are bitter toward me. Yes, you are bitter because I do not support war itself and disagree with war itself.

I never said that I "support" wars or even the death penalty in all cases every where at all times, and I never posted that I'm against all abortions at all times.

It doesn't bother me that you are against the war in Iraq; you have that right. It does bother me that you don't support American soldiers even though they do support you. You say awful things about them "killing innocents" and yet it doesn't bother you to accept a paycheck from them.

I do not need to repeat since I explained in my previous post yesterday about soliders feel bad for kill innocent people. You has no idea what and how soliders had through... You don´t care about them but yourself.

You really don't know what you're talking about. How am I caring about myself by defending our soldiers?

All what you want to picture them as pride/proud soliders... That´s it.

Absolutely not. I see them all kinds of soldiers. Some are physically and/or emotionally traumatized, some are healthy; some don't want to go back, some do. There are a few bad eggs but I certainly don't portray them all as "killers of innocents"!

I accept what they are as long as they do not brags but need my support.

So you put conditions on your support for them. I see.

I can see that you think yourself and like to provoke and tried to put ADers down.

How is defending our service men and women putting down ADers? There are many other ADers who support American military members. I'm not the only one.

Oh yes, You complaint about anti-war supporters for put soliders down in previous posts... You when I showed you the links and explained why anti-war group are not for war.

Is it forbidden for me to have an opinion that is different from your opinion? If you can accuse American soldiers of killing innocents, then I can defend them. I don't believe all our service men and women are killers of innocents. Not at all.

...Question: Do you must agree with US Government all the time because you live in America?

No. As an American citizen I have the right to address my grievances, and to vote. As a taxpayer, I have the right to complain about how my money is spent.

This forum is the public, we all share/express our POV, no matter either you like or not... but do not need to take my posts personally. You don´t bother to say that it´s not okay for pride/proud soliders label soliders for refuse to go Iraq war as chicken or coward... ?

I don't label them as chicken or coward. If they refuse to obey orders, they'll have to face the consequences.

You don´t bother to support some solider ADer vent/rant their feeling over their experience at other threads. All what you get is complaint... and

I didn't post anything against any soldier ADer vent/rant. I didn't complain about them. You must have me confused with someone else.

You ignored solider ADer´s venting/ranting at other threads and when solider said that he want to go Iraq war...

... I thought you know what pro-choice is about...

Yes, "pro-choice" is about abortion. I'm not discussing abortion in this thread. That is :topic: