What are your Pros or Cons on this?

Lillys dad said:
No.no.no, Dont shut up for now, or ever. I may have read into your statment too much, but it seemed that you were making a broad statment about kids with CI, and thier parents not teaching them sign. I get soo tired of peopl esaying that I am preventing my daughter from learning sign, or not exposing her to deaf culture and so on. By posting my last post, I was simply saying, dont paint us all with the same brush. The entire field of oral deaf ed has changed drastically in the last several years, and continues to change as we speak. I think one of the reasons these schools are changing, is because we parents are so involved with our childs education, progress, and expectations are increasing. This is not meant to say that parents in the past have not been involved. If it were not for those parents, I am certain that Lilly would not have the advantages she has now.
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Ok understood..just seems like many of the parents' here on AD posts and the parents of the CI students at my work talk so much about speech so I was wondering if ASL was just as important too? Sometimes, I just get so sick of listening to people constantly talk about how important speech is ...I don't know what's wrong with me but lately at my work, it is always about meeting the CIs kids' needs first and meeting the parents' expectations about using spoken language. Lately, there hasn't been much talk about ASL being as important. When I read your last POV about speech, it just was thebreaking point that caused me to express my thoughts about speech and ASL. Maybe it is just one of those times when iam readin here in AD and listening at my work about speech skills all the time and I took it too literally. It is not a big deal. I will get over this bad mood about speech..lol.

Nah..I wasn't accusing u and sorry if it came out that way. :)
 
Why would you even wonder about that, Shel - when many parents here have stated repeatedly that sign is a very important part of their implanted children's lives?

That would be like "wondering if the sun will come up" when its come up every morning all your life - there's no reason to doubt it.
 
To CI or not to CI?

Personally, I think every child should be given the chance to receive a CI at a young age. They are not old enough to make that decision when very young and that is why parents step up to the plate and make decisions for them. I am hearing impaired and will never be a canadidate for a CI but my dad had one last year at the age of 77 and it has changed his life around. He wished it was done when he was a kid!
 
well, if you listen to parents talk about speech speech speech and very little about ASL at your job as a deaf teacher.. you'll start wondering if they even care about the deaf idenity. That's how shel must see it. So i think parents on this forum who talk about teaching sign to their children must, in some form, inspire her when she feels discouraged. Just thought i'd offer that. Cuz I'm trying to put myself in Shel's shoes as a educator. Granted, I have never been a teacher, but that's the idea I get :) If I'm wrong, you can tell me. :)
 
neecy said:
Why would you even wonder about that, Shel - when many parents here have stated repeatedly that sign is a very important part of their implanted children's lives?

That would be like "wondering if the sun will come up" when its come up every morning all your life - there's no reason to doubt it.
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Just a bad mood that I am in about speech. Just expressing my feelings about how lately all I am hearing is about speech this or speech that. It is not targeted at AD members only..just in general. Whenever I brought up how the students with CI's ASL is doing it is like "ok ok whatever about ASL...when will my son/daughter develop speech skills?" Just expressing my feelings of frustration relating to how important speech is. As that deaf guy at the end of the PBS special was saying about speech and lipreading skills doesnt guarantee success and how knowledge and having excellent literacy skills are more powerful. I agree with him but it seems like many people arent seeing it that way. Just how I feel but doesnt mean that I am implying that all of the parents of CI children here in AD are like that and I have already apologized to Lillysdad for making it sound like that. Ok?
 
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BearBeauty said:
well, if you listen to parents talk about speech speech speech and very little about ASL at your job as a deaf teacher.. you'll start wondering if they even care about the deaf idenity. That's how shel must see it. So i think parents on this forum who talk about teaching sign to their children must, in some form, inspire her when she feels discouraged. Just thought i'd offer that. Cuz I'm trying to put myself in Shel's shoes as a educator. Granted, I have never been a teacher, but that's the idea I get :) If I'm wrong, you can tell me. :)
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Yea, the parents here on AD who talk about signing really do inspire me..and I really wish they would come to my work and tell that to those parents who put speech development as their #1 priority. I think both ASL and speech development should be seen as equally.

Speaking of being in a bad mood about speech...this did not help my bad mood but I am starting to get out of it. LOL..Today, I was outside with my son playing at the playground in my complex and there was a lady with a toddler and she was trying to get him to walk. When I put my son down, immediately he darted for that toddler cuz he is a toddler himself I guess so I went over there. The lady started talking to me really fast and I, as usual, told her that I am deaf and she needed to repeat what she had just said. Her eyes went wide open and said "ARE u for real, deaf?" I was thinking "oh boy...not another one of those "wow! deaf people can do this or that" but I smiled and said yea...and she said that her son is deaf in both ears. Then it was my turn to say "Your son is deaf??" hahhahaha so I asked her how old he was...she said 18 months old and she proceeded to tell me that he cant walk nor talk. She said he has been trying to get him to talk but it is not working. I asked her about sign language...well, this is where I got pissed again about "speech"..she said that the specialists told her that her son needed to learn speech skills before he can learn sign language. I tried not to show my displeasure cuz she is innocent so I was very polite about it..I told her that was not true ..that deaf people learn ASL since birth and that my son knows sign language and he is hearing and only 16 months old. She went :jaw:. She said that the specialists told her that all deaf people had to learn speech skills before being able to learn sign language. WTF??? That is new to me and one I do not like at all! I asked her if she knew about my school and she said she has never heard of it. Then it was my turn to :jaw: cuz my work was only 10 mins away from our homes. I proceeded to tell her about my work and she said that she prefers to focus on his speech skills cuz he is so delayed already. I had to tell myself "Calm calm...this woman doesnt understand ..so control yourself." I smiled at her and said well, my school do offer speech classes with speech therapists and that was when she said "Oh great!!! Give me the phone number." So I gave her the phone number. Sweet lady but wow..she was misinformed BIG time and I want to find out who those specialists who told her that and scream at them at how STUPID they are!!! Why take that chance on a child's language development like that for the sake of speech? Come on! It was obvious he was delayed ..dont know if he had congnitive disabilities or was due to no access to language ...he was too young to tell but still better to be safe than sorry, right? The point is..the child suffers because of some "idea" that deaf kids needs to learn speech skills before learning sign language. To me that is abuse! Sorry for coming off strong but it just makes me :pissed:
 
maybe we should make brochures in every doctor's office and let the parents know why speech language only will not help the child. Or something like that. Parents are going to listen to their doctor's advice over a deaf personal experiences at any time.
 
AussieGal said:
Errrmmmm dont hit me about this but i agree she should have it done how can a child make a decision when gets older?!?!?

For me if i had a deaf child and i would certainly go CI as the technology is improving and its getting better and dont forget the deaf population is shrinking so what is going to happen in 20 years or 50 years time ?? the deaf community will be gone.

Its the same with blind they are improving technology to help the blind to see so whats the big deal to make a big issue or debate on either deaf, blind etc.

We are moving forward with technology so who is going to shut that down ... you ????
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Not true aussie.. the deaf community will never vanish completly. There are many that will not or can not benefit from a CI. There are also many that have CI's now that are not getting any benefit from them. That will most likely always be the case.
 
SxyPorkie said:
I am against having children implaned... children should wait until they are at legal age before they make a choice...
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Yeah I went like that years ago however delaying someone auditorial activities does have strong drawbacks when the child decides at age 15 or 16 to have the implant. He/she will be caught in the middle of a peer pressure storm that will impede his or her ability to succeed in life. My best take now if the kid is to be implanted, should be done before he/she enters the peer pressure stage of life.

Richard
 
shel90 said:
Life doesn't have to be hard for deaf people without oral skills. It is hearing people who refuse accodomate for us.
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I am sorry shel but many have told me that life is very frustrating as a deaf person. See the post here http://www.alldeaf.com/719624-post397.html and also read through that thread and you will see how many issues are listed. Many listed by yourself. You can't argue that if the CI enables one to assimilate with the majority of the world, which is hearing, all of the frustrations, and discrimination and other negatives that come with being deaf would be elmiminated. Please correct me if you dis-agree.
 
Lillys dad said:
No.no.no, Dont shut up for now, or ever. I may have read into your statment too much, but it seemed that you were making a broad statment about kids with CI, and thier parents not teaching them sign. I get soo tired of peopl esaying that I am preventing my daughter from learning sign, or not exposing her to deaf culture and so on. By posting my last post, I was simply saying, dont paint us all with the same brush. The entire field of oral deaf ed has changed drastically in the last several years, and continues to change as we speak. I think one of the reasons these schools are changing, is because we parents are so involved with our childs education, progress, and expectations are increasing. This is not meant to say that parents in the past have not been involved. If it were not for those parents, I am certain that Lilly would not have the advantages she has now.
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That has been my complaint all along. To many people here keep generalizing and saying that all hearing this or all hearing that and it's just not true. All they need to say is SOME hearing this and SOME hearing that. Don't lump us into a catagory. Ironically, some deafies have the same complaints when some hearing lump them into a catagory.. Just remember everyone is different. And I am not singling Shel out either.. She has been pretty good about it.
 
Nesmuth said:
Yeah I went like that years ago however delaying someone auditorial activities does have strong drawbacks when the child decides at age 15 or 16 to have the implant. He/she will be caught in the middle of a peer pressure storm that will impede his or her ability to succeed in life. My best take now if the kid is to be implanted, should be done before he/she enters the peer pressure stage of life.

Richard
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and not to mention the access to language issue. If it's true that young children need to be exposed to language at an early age to aquire it, then waiting would have a negative impact and while you have still made a choice for the child, it would be one that they would pay for in terms of achievement. It's a tough decision no matter how you slice it. And if a parent decides to implant or not, they have still made a choice for their child.
 
rockdrummer said:
I am sorry shel but many have told me that life is very frustrating as a deaf person. See the post here http://www.alldeaf.com/719624-post397.html and also read through that thread and you will see how many issues are listed. Many listed by yourself. You can't argue that if the CI enables one to assimilate with the majority of the world, which is hearing, all of the frustrations, and discrimination and other negatives that come with being deaf would be elmiminated. Please correct me if you dis-agree.
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Yes, it is tough for deaf people but does it have to be? If everyone could understand and treat us like we are equal humans then maybe all these frustrations, bitterness, and strong opinions against CIs would not be so rampant?

That was what I meant. It is a stupid question, I know but just something that has been burning in my head. All we can is keep doing our best to educate society that deaf people are just as smart and just as capable in a lot of things and just pls treat us with dignitiy and respect.
 
rockdrummer said:
That has been my complaint all along. To many people here keep generalizing and saying that all hearing this or all hearing that and it's just not true. All they need to say is SOME hearing this and SOME hearing that. Don't lump us into a catagory. Ironically, some deafies have the same complaints when some hearing lump them into a catagory.. Just remember everyone is different. And I am not singling Shel out either.. She has been pretty good about it.
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I know..that's where I realized my error when typing that post..I forgot to add "some" my bad. That's why I apologized for making it seem like I was generalizing or lumping all of you parents into one category. OOOPs. Really, that was not what I meant...*sighs*
 
shel90 said:
Yes, it is tough for deaf people but does it have to be? If everyone could understand and treat us like we are equal humans then maybe all these frustrations, bitterness, and strong opinions against CIs would not be so rampant? That was what I meant. It is a stupid question, I know but just something that has been burning in my head. All we can is keep doing our best to educate society that deaf people are just as smart and just as capable in a lot of things and just pls treat us with dignitiy and respect.
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No it doesn't have to be. Think about it. What is the source of the problem? My answer is communication. If we were able to communicate with each other all of the frustrations and the wall that divides us would vanish. If we can agree on that then what is the next step? The choices I see are that the hearing world learns to communicate with the deaf or the deaf learn to communicate with the hearing. The logical side of me says that you will never get the majority (the hearing) to learn and retain sign language. Its just not realistic to expect that from every hearing person because they may never encounter a deaf person in their entire life. And ASL like anything will get forgotton if you don't use it on a regular basis. If you don't use it you will loose it. So assume that a hearing individual learns sign language but doesn't use it regularly because they don't encounter deafies in their job or social life. Many years go by since they learned to sign and all of the sudden they meet someone whom is deaf. Do you honestly believe they will have retained what they learned many years ago but have not used since then. I know from my personal experience that I would have forgotten much of what I learned and would struggle to communicate using sign.

If you agree with what I just said then the only remaining choice is for the deaf to learn to communicate with the hearing world. Which method or technology is used to do that seems to be contraversial. For me, as long as the end result is our ability to communicate with each other, it doesn't matter how that is accomplished. Lipreading, HA, CI, pencil and paper, signing or any combination. Don't sit back and wait for the hearing population to learn to sign. It will never happen for the reasons mentioned. There are many hearing people that know how to sign but my guess is that they are a minority. If you are waiting on the hearing world to accomidate deafness you will wait forever. Instead you should accept the fact that it's not going to happen and move on to the next logical solution. That is for the deaf to learn to communicate with the hearing world. That is a general statement and IMO doesn't apply to hearing people that deal with deafness because of job and/or family. Those individuals should learn to communicate with deaf and the deaf people in their lives should also make an effort to communicate with the hearing. In those situations it's a two way street and meeting half way would be fair to both sides.

As far as deaf people being treated equally, I agree. But make no mistke that you don't automatically get the benifit of the doubt. Hell, even hearing people don't get that luxury. We have to prove ourselves in life and I can't tell you how many times I have to pay my dues over and over. It's part of life for deaf and hearing. IMO everyone should at least be given the chance to prove themselves. From there, its up to the individual.
 
If you get a CI you have to make the choice when the child is young whether you want to go the ASL route or the oral/CI route. Each choice requires the development of a totally different set of skills. If someone gets a CI when they are older they will have difficulty hearing through it and making sense of what they hear, if they have never heard before. Your brain gets "wired" to either auditory or visual communication at an early age.
 
CI truly have an interesting effect on both the hearing world and the deaf world from the social perspective. Very intriguing.
 
rockdrummer said:
No it doesn't have to be. Think about it. What is the source of the problem? My answer is communication. If we were able to communicate with each other all of the frustrations and the wall that divides us would vanish. If we can agree on that then what is the next step? The choices I see are that the hearing world learns to communicate with the deaf or the deaf learn to communicate with the hearing. The logical side of me says that you will never get the majority (the hearing) to learn and retain sign language. Its just not realistic to expect that from every hearing person because they may never encounter a deaf person in their entire life. And ASL like anything will get forgotton if you don't use it on a regular basis. If you don't use it you will loose it. So assume that a hearing individual learns sign language but doesn't use it regularly because they don't encounter deafies in their job or social life. Many years go by since they learned to sign and all of the sudden they meet someone whom is deaf. Do you honestly believe they will have retained what they learned many years ago but have not used since then. I know from my personal experience that I would have forgotten much of what I learned and would struggle to communicate using sign.

If you agree with what I just said then the only remaining choice is for the deaf to learn to communicate with the hearing world. Which method or technology is used to do that seems to be contraversial. For me, as long as the end result is our ability to communicate with each other, it doesn't matter how that is accomplished. Lipreading, HA, CI, pencil and paper, signing or any combination. Don't sit back and wait for the hearing population to learn to sign. It will never happen for the reasons mentioned. There are many hearing people that know how to sign but my guess is that they are a minority. If you are waiting on the hearing world to accomidate deafness you will wait forever. Instead you should accept the fact that it's not going to happen and move on to the next logical solution. That is for the deaf to learn to communicate with the hearing world. That is a general statement and IMO doesn't apply to hearing people that deal with deafness because of job and/or family. Those individuals should learn to communicate with deaf and the deaf people in their lives should also make an effort to communicate with the hearing. In those situations it's a two way street and meeting half way would be fair to both sides.

As far as deaf people being treated equally, I agree. But make no mistke that you don't automatically get the benifit of the doubt. Hell, even hearing people don't get that luxury. We have to prove ourselves in life and I can't tell you how many times I have to pay my dues over and over. It's part of life for deaf and hearing. IMO everyone should at least be given the chance to prove themselves. From there, its up to the individual.
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Ok..u mentioned paper and pencil...now that is where most of my strong beliefs about exposing every deaf child to both languages while they r babies or toddlers. Some will develop adequate speech and lipreading skills to communicate with hearing people and some won't. Now..that's where being able to communicate in pen and paper becomes critical so if those deaf children becomes delayed in language development the more likely they will struggle to develop adequate readin a d writing skills. If they r unable to develop speech/lipreading skills and have poor English then they r doomed. That's where my frustration comes from..there is no reason for the children to miss out on language development during those critical years just because they were unable to suceed with the oral-only approach.

My primary concern is that deaf people have that opportunity to aquire a strong L1 language before they enter the elementary school-ages.

Other people's priorities r getting them to be able to speak and lipread/hear so they can communicate with the hearing world. It is not mine..prefer to work on strong literacy skills. That's when I get bashed or get accused (not here on AD) for being anti-oral. Those people really either don't get it or don't want to?
 
Shel, I get your point. You have a good perspective on this issue and what you preach makes sense to me. I only wish I knew how to get your point across to the folks that educate our children. Deafness has been around forever and it boggles my mind that we argue over teaching methods. I can't imagine that there are no benchmarks or empirical data that would steer us towards the most effective methods.
 
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