"Toilet Test" Controversy

rockin'robin

rockin'robin

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MADISON, Wisconsin — If you are a female about 5 feet 8 inches tall, 140 pounds and willing to stick your head in a toilet, a prosecutor wants your help in proving a high-profile homicide case.

Al Moustakis, the district attorney in Vilas County, in northern Wisconsin, plans to recruit volunteers for a second round of controversial tests designed to prove that a woman was drowned by her husband in a toilet — and didn't commit suicide as he claims.

The experiments involve positioning women the size of the late Genell Plude of Land O' Lakes at a toilet to determine whether the version of events told by her husband, Douglas Plude, is plausible.

Defense lawyers say it's junk science.

Plude, 42, was convicted of first-degree intentional homicide in 2002. But the Wisconsin Supreme Court threw out the conviction last year after learning that an expert witness who conducted the first round of toilet tests exaggerated his credentials. Plude has been released from prison pending the second trial, which is expected to begin in October.

Prosecutors contend Plude murdered his 28-year-old wife because she was about to leave him. They say he poisoned her with a migraine drug and pushed her face into the toilet to drown her while she vomited.

Plude says his wife was depressed, committed suicide by taking the pills on her own and then drowned. He claims he found his wife slumped over the vomit-filled toilet and tried to resusitate her.

Breaking News | Latest News | Current News - FOXNews.com
 
I am not sure if I understand, but was that woman only put her head in the tiolet, or entirely of her body? I do not understand why they want to do the test base on her body size?
 
PuyoPiyo said:
I am not sure if I understand, but was that woman only put her head in the tiolet, or entirely of her body? I do not understand why they want to do the test base on her body size?
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It sounds to me as if she only put her head in the toilet and that she may have drowned by having her head pushed into the toilet and choking on her vomit as well as the water. I highly doubt anyone could drown by fitting their entire body inside the frame of a toilet unless it was an infant.
 
Very limited news link. Is there another news link that would detail the autopsy of the victim?
 
Byrdie714 said:
Very limited news link. Is there another news link that would detail the autopsy of the victim?
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Good question. I would like to know what the contents of the woman's lungs were on autopsy, and the volume of those contents.
 
Lupe Velez was a famous star of silent movies. That scenario is exactly how she died by attempting suicide with pills and then drowning in the toilet while vomiting.
 
what a shitty way to die from (no pun intended)
 
Hear Again said:
It sounds to me as if she only put her head in the toilet and that she may have drowned by having her head pushed into the toilet and choking on her vomit as well as the water. I highly doubt anyone could drown by fitting their entire body inside the frame of a toilet unless it was an infant.
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Yeah that's what I thought so too, but what I was referring to is this:

If you are a female about 5 feet 8 inches tall, 140 pounds and willing to stick your head in a toilet, a prosecutor wants your help in proving a high-profile homicide case.
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I am not sure how that works when they use the size of that woman's body as base.
 
PuyoPiyo said:
Yeah that's what I thought so too, but what I was referring to is this:



I am not sure how that works when they use the size of that woman's body as base.
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I would say that it has something to do with how far above the toilet her head would be if someone her height was kneeling in front of the toilet. That would affect how fasr down into the water her head would be.
 
jillio said:
I would say that it has something to do with how far above the toilet her head would be if someone her height was kneeling in front of the toilet. That would affect how fasr down into the water her head would be.
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Ohh gotcha, thanks. :)
 
jillio said:
Good question. I would like to know what the contents of the woman's lungs were on autopsy, and the volume of those contents.
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jillio said:
I would say that it has something to do with how far above the toilet her head would be if someone her height was kneeling in front of the toilet. That would affect how fasr down into the water her head would be.
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Exactly. The news link is very limited. I wonder what the autopsy says on the death of this woman as well as if there were fingerprints, bruising on her neck. Especially if there are charging the husband with the crime as he would've done it from behind her to drown her........:hmm:
 
Byrdie714 said:
Very limited news link. Is there another news link that would detail the autopsy of the victim?
Click to expand...

I had wondered the same thing. So I took the liberty of googling it up and found another news link that probably has filled in a little bit more details to this case.

MADISON, Wis. - If you are a female about 5 feet 8 inches tall, 140 pounds and willing to stick your head in a toilet, a northern Wisconsin prosecutor wants your help in proving a high-profile homicide case.

The Vilas County district attorney plans to recruit volunteers for a second round of controversial tests designed to prove that a woman was drowned by her husband in a toilet - and didn't commit suicide as he claims.

The experiments involve positioning women the size of the late Genell Plude of Land O' Lakes at a toilet to determine whether the version of events told by her husband, Douglas Plude, is plausible.

Defense lawyers say it's junk science.

Plude, 42, was convicted of first-degree intentional homicide in 2002. But the Wisconsin Supreme Court threw out the conviction last year after learning that an expert witness who conducted the first round of toilet tests exaggerated his credentials. Plude has been released from prison pending the second trial, which is expected to begin in October.

Prosecutors contend Plude murdered his 28-year-old wife because she was about to leave him. They say he poisoned her with a migraine drug and pushed her face into the toilet to drown her while she vomited.

Plude says his wife was depressed, committed suicide by taking the pills on her own and then drowned. He claims he found his wife slumped over the vomit-filled toilet and tried to perform CPR to keep her alive.

Prosecutors called on expert witness Saami Shaibani to shoot down Plude's story at the first trial.

Shaibani said that, based on his tests involving volunteers he positioned at a toilet, Plude had to be lying about the positions he claimed to have found his wife in. Genell Plude also could not have inhaled toilet water on her own and someone must have forced her head into the water, he testified.

Defense lawyers from across the country have derided the tests and call them an example of unfair expert testimony. One of them, North Carolina lawyer David Rudolf, who clashed with Shaibani in another case, laughed about the tests in an interview last year.

"He had women sticking their heads in toilets!" he said. "That's just not science.

How do you peer review that? How do you test his conclusions?"

The state high court ordered a new trial for Plude after discovering Shaibani lied about being a clinical associate professor at Temple University who taught physicians and surgeons there about injuries. He had no relationship with Temple; years earlier he had a "loose courtesy affiliation" that gave him parking privileges but little else.

The Wisconsin Department of Justice is considering whether to charge Shaibani with perjury.

Unfazed by the controversy, Vilas County District Attorney Al Moustakis has hired Christopher Damm of the Milwaukee School of Engineering to do a second round of tests. Judge Neal Nielsen III last month granted his request to allow the testing of the toilet and a floor display of the bathroom in the court's custody.

"The testing is likely to be the same type of testing that Shaibani did," Moustakis said.

Prosecutors routinely re-create crime scenes to prove their theories of crimes and hire accident reconstruction experts to analyze what might have caused someone's death, said Gerald Mowris, former president of the Wisconsin Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers.

"It's really a question of, is the testing done properly, is it done according to scientifically accepted standards and is it by someone who is a qualified expert?" he said. "There are people who hold themselves out as experts who aren't experts. That's a major issue."

He added: "The type of test you're describing - whether someone could drown in a toilet or would need help - I'm not sure the type of expert who would be able to testify about that. I don't know what the purported qualifications of the new expert is. The old one was essentially a charlatan."

Damm, an associate professor of mechanical engineering, said he is a consultant in accident reconstruction and has testified in civil cases but this would be his first criminal case.

He said he was still reviewing testimony from the first trial and hadn't yet designed the tests, which are expected to take place in June, but agreed they would be similar to Shaibani's.

As for claims that it's junk science, he said: "I don't think you can make blanket statements like that. It would take an understanding of why the tests are being done and the methods that were used."

Moustakis noted Shaibani's conclusions were in line with some of the other evidence, including bruising Genell Plude had on her neck.

Other medical testimony was inconclusive on the cause of death.
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Toilet tests in swirl of controversy - LA Daily News
 
Byrdie714 said:
Exactly. The news link is very limited. I wonder what the autopsy says on the death of this woman as well as if there were fingerprints, bruising on her neck. Especially if there are charging the husband with the crime as he would've done it from behind her to drown her........:hmm:
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And, if her head was held under water by force, then the volume of liquid aspirated into her lungs would probably be greater.
 
jillio said:
And, if her head was held under water by force, then the volume of liquid aspirated into her lungs would probably be greater.
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Plus I wonder about the bruising on her neck if it was on the back of her neck or at the base as well.

Moustakis noted Shaibani's conclusions were in line with some of the other evidence, including bruising Genell Plude had on her neck.
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As for Shaibani--he needs to be charged with perjury.

Thanks Jolie for the link! :)
 
Our toilet is 1 and a half foot off the floor....The lady was 5'8 ...so I'm guessing she had to be 1 and a half foot away from the toilet if she was on her knees...for her head to be inside of the toilet....if on her side, on the floor, her legs would have to be stretched out.

Most people who are sick, don't stick their head into the water when they vomit. And usually, they hold the sides of the toilet with their arms when they do vomit. :hmm:
 
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