The Whiners are Killing us

[sr171soars]

What I mean is that they write here as if they were signing. Signing and writing are two different ways of communication. If hearing people had to stop and decifer what it is that deaf/hoh people are trying to say when they write, very little work would get accomplished. It has nothing to do with how I am, it has everything to do with being able to communicate effectively. There's a thread around here that a person was writing like they were signing and I just lost it and told him/her to learn how to write. Seriously, if we, as the deaf and hoh, cannot communicate effectively with the world at large, why don't we all just find our own little worlds and make it so no one else can come in. Remember, not everyone is born deaf or hoh, so we have to abide by the rules, which become rules for all.

While I fully agree with your statement, one needs to consider that some individuals never had the benefit of training and/or education to write clearly as we do. In this respect, it is not their fault especially after learning that some deaf have only have the equivalence of a 4th or 5th grade education! That floors me as I have two degrees and taken many other college courses over the years. I count my blessings every day!

 

[kimeran]

It's nice when equipment is provided. I'm always pleased, but it can be a little frustrating when it doesn't work, or isn't switched on!

 

[pek1]

There is a new wave of young teachers who have been trained differently so hopefully this problem will be changed.

The university I'm returning to this fall, shel, I was a pre-audiology major the first year I was here. I changed majors because I perceived the same attitude toward me by a professor and some students (in a class that I was partnered with) that made me think they were better than me because they could hear "normally." Even though I am aware of deaf audiologists that are in the profession, the training grounds for them need to change their attitudes toward the deaf and hoh. I won't tolerate ATTITUDE from anyone looking down on me or other people who are deaf/hoh.

 

[pek1]

I understand what you mean...but what I mean is not everyone have the capable to understand that sign language is different from English. It just that you make it sounds like it's their fault for write the way they did. So what do you want to do with those types of people? Tell them to shut up? All just because they did not write in a way that everyone can understand? Not everyone has good environment or background to grow up in to be able to write well, and so what other choices do they have? Shut away the rest of world just because they did not abide by the norm?

The way thing are nowadays, there will always be deaf people who write accords to the way they signed. You can't change how people were raised as much as you would like to. That's where the tolerance shall come in.

Sure, of course we have to abide by their rules because they are greater in number, but it doesn't mean they can't try to come across and understand where we are coming from too.

No, "tolerance" comes in when someone cuts through a traffic light when I have the right of way, Silentwolfdog. It's their ticket or accident they are possibly causing and I most definately will back down and let them at it. Tolerance also comes into play when walking with someone that can't walk my breakneck speed to keep up, that I do have to slow down. Tolerance comes into play when helping someone learn how to tie their shoes or help them eat because they don't have the strength anymore to lift a fork.

When people learn asl, if this is going to be their "mother tongue," they also need to be taught that they need to write differently than how they sign. As shel90 said, the English language isn't the easiest. Actually, if one really wants to get technical, I'd laugh at someone speaking English to me because here in the USA, we speak American. Some of the things that English calls, Americans call it something different.

While it is true that one cannot change deaf who write the way they sign, the deaf cannot, by the same token, make others stop and pay attention to them because they haven't learned how to speak appropriately. Scream discrimination and ADA violations all you want, but it is true. That may bite, but consider the alternatives. Finish this phrase: "When in Rome . . . "

 

[pek1]

Pek, not everyone has had the same advantages as you when it comes to learning English. Just because someone has trouble with English syntax is not an indication that they are not every bit as intelligent, creative, expressive, and capable as you are, and have just as much right as you do to express whatever it is they want to say. If you plan on defending discrimination cases, I would suggest you work on developing your tolerance, because your statement is one of the most discriminatory things you could have said. Shame on you!

Whoa, whoa, jillio! I never said anything about being less than intelligent and etc regarding English. I have said and continue to do so, that society as a whole doesn't speak or write like a person signing asl. ASL and writing are two different ways and they need to be taught, which is something that shel90 is concerned about as an educator. Did you know that I was in a private Christian school for 8th and 9th grade and they tested me to be at the 5th and 6th grade level in english and math respectively? Tenth grade I was back in public school and had a lot of work to do to get caught up. One of the fun courses I learned to do was typing (on an electric typewriter, remember those? I preferred an Olympia typewriter . . . clack, clack, bing! zip return!) I wish I had taken shorthand at the same time, but didn't.

As for discrimination, speaking and writing incorrect English isn't discrimination. What does society demand of people, that they should all learn how to speak in asl? What about the other people? Who is it fair to? When you're in Rome, jillio, what do you have to do? I live in Minnesota, do you think I'd be smart to go into a bar to have a beer down in the heart of Georgia somewhere and bust out singing "I'm a Yankee Doodle Dandee!" just because I think southerners are backwards? I admit to doing some crazy things, but not this crazy! Discrimination toward those can be corrected and reversed so as to be perceived in a different light. Even though I would defend a client that is dumber than a rock, in no way would I allow my perception of him/her to come out. People would rather be looked up to with respect rather than looked down on, no matter why they would need an attorney.

 

[pek1]

It's nice when equipment is provided. I'm always pleased, but it can be a little frustrating when it doesn't work, or isn't switched on!

jillio, I am presuming kimeran is way more deaf than I am. This is absolute perfect writing. The word structure is coherent and gets the point across up front without guessing by the readers (that's us!).

I'm a writer on the side, as well. Do you have any idea how many times writers are edited and how many times they edit their own work in order for what they are saying to be perceived as intelligent? Walk into a Barnes and Noble or Borders, even B. Dalton and look at books that are written by individuals. Do you think the authors wrote their books in one sitting? I know for a fact, that even my own work that's been published, has been through the editing process. There will be words written that are deleted in the final work that I would hope were not edited out. There are words that should have been deleted that were not.

 

[pek1]

**nodding agreement**After 20 years of ASL I consider myself to be fluent, but still make mistakes sometimes. But my Deaf friends have always been helpful in their corrections. Heck, I've been speaking English twice that long, and can still make mistakes!

Oh, and trust me, you don't want to hear me sing!

I can understand, because asl is not your mother tongue, neither is it mine. I don't mind being corrected on my grammar or writing at all. But, when I and shel90 voice our concerns about how English is being used and the poor useage of it, especially in writing, deaf/hoh people start as if we've insulted them, which isn't the case at all. Act like this or this or this or, heaven forbid, these :fu2: :fu: :madfawk: in a job interview or toward people in public and tell me what happens. I stand by what I said.

If you really want to read something bad, read what I commented to here: http://www.alldeaf.com/our-pets/43300-dog-dies-after-being-set-fire.html#post809212

This is beyond inexcusable!

 

[javapride]

PEK1 ur being a bit more judgmental, leave the people who can't write perfect English alone, their first language is their comfort zone if u can't handle it and continue to criticize here, why are u here in the first place? u want perfect English, then go to the perfect English forum simple. if u don't then please refrain from being an egoistical idiot and respect the poeple and the thread who posts these!

and now let's get back to the REAL topic about the whiners.

Remember judging people won't get you far respecting thier opioion will get you respect

 

[kimeran]

I am presuming kimeran is way more deaf than I am

Probably not, I'm only mild/moderate, but only happened a few years ago.

I would never put someone down for their English usage. We cannot know how much someone has struggled to get something down on paper. Maybe they are dyslexic or have other difficulties. (How can we know if someone wasn't bullied all through school due to dyslexia and feel absolutely awful about it!) Perhaps they have manual dexterity issues and prefer to type in a short, contracted manner. Maybe they are just choosing to express themselves in the way they personally choose. I feel people do have that right.

And when all's said and done: we can't all be good at everything can we! We all have our strengths and weaknesses, and we will all need eachother's help from time to time.

 

[jillio]

But shel, there are people that are either hearies who are in charge or these people are prone to do it the old school way that how can this be changed without almost beating people up? The woman that was in charge of student support at my high school (early 80s) is still there! She was a monster then, I can only imagine why she changed her last name now!

If we converted to a Bi-Bi approach, employing more Deaf/deaf teachers would be an essential feature of the program. That would tip the scales back the other direction sothat there would be more actual Deaf/deaf input into policy, rather than control by professionalized hearing teachers and administrators.

 

[shel90]

If we converted to a Bi-Bi approach, employing more Deaf/deaf teachers would be an essential feature of the program. That would tip the scales back the other direction sothat there would be more actual Deaf/deaf input into policy, rather than control by professionalized hearing teachers and administrators.

Yes...that's another reason why I am anti oral-only education cuz the lack of deaf/hoh working in those programs therefore no deaf/hoh role models for these children.

 

[jillio]

Whoa, whoa, jillio! I never said anything about being less than intelligent and etc regarding English. I have said and continue to do so, that society as a whole doesn't speak or write like a person signing asl. ASL and writing are two different ways and they need to be taught, which is something that shel90 is concerned about as an educator. Did you know that I was in a private Christian school for 8th and 9th grade and they tested me to be at the 5th and 6th grade level in english and math respectively? Tenth grade I was back in public school and had a lot of work to do to get caught up. One of the fun courses I learned to do was typing (on an electric typewriter, remember those? I preferred an Olympia typewriter . . . clack, clack, bing! zip return!) I wish I had taken shorthand at the same time, but didn't.

Yes, it does need to be taught. But there are those who haven't been taught effectively, and that is not their fault. They should not be critcized because the educational system failed them. That was my point.
As for discrimination, speaking and writing incorrect English isn't discrimination.
No, but criticism of them is. What does society demand of people, that they should all learn how to speak in asl? What about the other people? Who is it fair to? When you're in Rome, jillio, what do you have to do? I live in Minnesota, do you think I'd be smart to go into a bar to have a beer down in the heart of Georgia somewhere and bust out singing "I'm a Yankee Doodle Dandee!"
There is a thing called self preservation. I think that would fall more into this category, LOL!
just because I think southerners are backwards? I admit to doing some crazy things, but not this crazy! Discrimination toward those can be corrected and reversed so as to be perceived in a different light. Even though I would defend a client that is dumber than a rock, in no way would I allow my perception of him/her to come out. People would rather be looked up to with respect rather than looked down on, no matter why they would need an attorney.

Exactly. But true respect for the individual, despite their perceived status, is the stuff of tolerance. Feigning respect is judgemental and when it is also hidden, manipulative and insincere. Your points regarding the reading and writing skills of many deaf people are valid. I ws just pointing out that the criticsm needs to be directed toward the educaitonal system, and not toward the individual, and that we all, no matter our level of English skill, are entitled to express our opinion.

 

[jillio]

I can understand, because asl is not your mother tongue, neither is it mine. I don't mind being corrected on my grammar or writing at all. But, when I and shel90 voice our concerns about how English is being used and the poor useage of it, especially in writing, deaf/hoh people start as if we've insulted them, which isn't the case at all. Act like this or this or this or, heaven forbid, these :fu2: :fu: :madfawk: in a job interview or toward people in public and tell me what happens. I stand by what I said.

If you really want to read something bad, read what I commented to here: http://www.alldeaf.com/our-pets/43300-dog-dies-after-being-set-fire.html#post809212

This is beyond inexcusable!

But English is my mother tongue, and I still can make mistakes in the usage of English. And unless we have never made a mistake ourselves, we have no right to judge others on their mistakes.

 

[dreama]

I ws just pointing out that the criticsm needs to be directed toward the educaitonal system, and not toward the individual, and that we all, no matter our level of English skill, are entitled to express our opinion.[/COLOR]

I totally agree. I think most deaf who can't write properly weren't taught sign language soon enough. It is because some people only see sign language as something to fall back on if the child totally fails to pick up on speech. So they are taught signing as a last resort and their writing is very poor. It is not their fault. The fault lies with the educators who should teach ALL deaf and HOH children BSL first while they are still very young. There would be less damaged deaf with sometimes severe communication difficulties that way.

 

[jillio]

I totally agree. I think most deaf who can't write properly weren't taught sign language soon enough. It is because some people only see sign language as something to fall back on if the child totally fails to pick up on speech. So they are taught signing as a last resort and their writing is very poor. It is not their fault. The fault lies with the educators who should teach ALL deaf and HOH children BSL first while they are still very young. There would be less damaged deaf with sometimes severe communication difficulties that way.

Absolutely!

 

[jillio]

Yes...that's another reason why I am anti oral-only education cuz the lack of deaf/hoh working in those programs therefore no deaf/hoh role models for these children.

And that is a very improtant facet of education for the deaf, or any other child. Just think...if a deaf child grows up and never sees successful deaf adult, how are they to set their goals for success?

 

[robbielyn]

Here's a novel idea. why don't they make a deaf channel like they have a spanish channel? With asl at the helm. And they could make it like a pbs station where charity pays for the channel or advertisers could pay for it. Afterall asl is the number 4 language in the country or is it third now?

 

[Silentwolfdog]

Here's the reason, the popular excuse (whatever it's good or not) that hearing people used is, "It costs too much money."

 

[kimeran]

Yes I would love a signed channel. I would watch it all the time.

 

[robbielyn]

Pek 1: You say some deaf write like they are signing. Actually that is not true or I would understand them. They do try to write english but are inept at it. Our language is very hard to learn for foreigners let alone deaf who cant hear the language. Here is an example of asl gloss which if the deaf who couldn't write proper english syntax and grammar would do, then hearies that knew asl would understand them. "suppose I finish graduate hs afterward my goal what? enter college." Hearies that know asl can read this and sign it. But some deaf don't write this way. They get there word order and word choices scrambled and it is undecipherable at times. Actually for those who don't have a good writing command of english I wish they would asl gloss it would be easier to understand them. I am not talking about people who one can understand but the writer may make grammatical mistakes now and then, I talking about people that have limited english writing skills and try to take a stab at it but come up short in being clear like that kid that kept talking about his ci's bothering him. He was very hard to understand.