The Deaf Community

[Jiro]

Just making a point. Why not? Don't a lot of oral deaf learn ASL later?

Don't some primary ASL users learn oral skills later?

right

Primary Oral --> Secondary ASL
Primary ASL --> Secondary Oral

but which method of communication would yield a more reliable result?

 

[AlleyCat]

Perhaps I should clarify everything as in LITERALLY EVERYTHING, not just ASL, written english, and spoken english. I'm also talking about academics, sports, social skills, and whatnot.

This is pointless. Okay, fine, you can teach them everything. I'd much prefer that anyway.

I'm just saying that people have their priorities as I said in my last post.

Man, I should not be on AD when I'm also working!

I meant giving your child literally everything. Make them learn written english, ASL, spoken english, spoken spanish, spoken german, BSL, and so on. I mean, after all, a lot of people complain about speech therapy, right? Why? Because they felt that they had better things to do, more constructive things to learn. Which is why I said that Bi-bi approach, to me, really isn't a FULL toolbox, only takes the priorities (ASL and written english) and focuses on them.

I think we all get that. It's just that the same applies whether you're hearing or deaf -- that not everything can be taught all at once -- as far as teaching a child or adult EVERYTHING. Not arguing your point, but your original post about this was referring to giving a child everything for communication purposes - I didn't take from that that you were also including sports and everything else, that's all.

 

[GrendelQ]

Perhaps I should clarify everything as in LITERALLY EVERYTHING, not just ASL, written english, and spoken english. I'm also talking about academics, sports, social skills, and whatnot.

This is pointless. Okay, fine, you can teach them everything. I'd much prefer that anyway.

I'm just saying that people have their priorities as I said in my last post.

Man, I should not be on AD when I'm also working!

I get what you're saying, I'm experiencing it, too. There are limited resources (hours in the day, available teachers and learning materials, money, miles, my child's mindspace, everything has its limits, it seems), and only so much of my child's daily experience can be devoted to dedicated language learning of one sort or another (ASL, spoken English, written English, Mandarin, Spanish) -- she wants to play piano, to do gymnastics, to ride her bike and play with her friends and her dogs and chickens, to eat, to sleep once in a blue moon .

If we spread her attention too thin, sure , she may get some phrases of each language, some basic skills. But we might be sacrificing mastery of one for this sort of dabbling if we try to do it simultaneously. Most educators recommend intensive immersion in one and then another language to truly achieve mastery in 2 languages (and so on, for more languages). Sequential learning.

So, we're asking a lot of our little one to pick up 2 languages simultaneously. I'm glad that she had a foundation in ASL to start, or I think it would have gone by the wayside if learned hand in hand with spoken English.

 

[faire_jour]

I think we all get that. It's just that the same applies whether you're hearing or deaf -- that not everything can be taught all at once -- as far as teaching a child or adult EVERYTHING. Not arguing your point, but your original post about this was referring to giving a child everything for communication purposes - I didn't take from that that you were also including sports and everything else, that's all.

So how do you simultaneously teach ASL and spoken language? One of them MUST be the primary language. How do you fully immerse a child in voice off ASL, but at the same time immerse them in fluent spoken language? How do you teach them concepts and in which language? How can you possibly learn ASL, teach it to your child, while keeping them developmentally appropriate in all academics areas, AND spend all day giving them a rich spoken language environment? How do you give them the best spoken language professionals and access to sound all the time BUT still surround them with people who can act as ASL mentors and provide them the fluent ASL model that a learning parent can not? How do you provide them sound, music, and fluent, colorful spoken language while actively making sure that everyone in their lives and community use ASL at all times around them?

 

[faire_jour]

I get what you're saying, I'm experiencing it, too. There are limited resources (hours in the day, available teachers and learning materials, money, miles, my child's mindspace, everything has its limits, it seems), and only so much of my child's daily experience can be devoted to dedicated language learning of one sort or another (ASL, spoken English, written English, Mandarin, Spanish) -- she wants to play piano, to do gymnastics, to ride her bike and play with her friends and her dogs and chickens, to eat, to sleep once in a blue moon .

If we spread her attention too thin, sure , she may get some phrases of each language, some basic skills. But we might be sacrificing mastery of one for this sort of dabbling if we try to do it simultaneously. Most educators recommend intensive immersion in one and then another language to truly achieve mastery in 2 languages (and so on, for more languages). Sequential learning.

So, we're asking a lot of our little one to pick up 2 languages simultaneously. I'm glad that she had a foundation in ASL to start, or I think it would have gone by the wayside if learned hand in hand with spoken English.

EXACTLY! Sequential learning! That is exactly what we chose for my daughter, and that is why be get burned at the stake over it. We chose ASL first and when she mastered it, we moved to the other language. She is now being immersed in spoken English, just as she was immersed in ASL as a very young child.

 

[AlleyCat]

So how do you simultaneously teach ASL and spoken language? One of them MUST be the primary language. How do you fully immerse a child in voice off ASL, but at the same time immerse them in fluent spoken language? How do you teach them concepts and in which language? How can you possibly learn ASL, teach it to your child, while keeping them developmentally appropriate in all academics areas, AND spend all day giving them a rich spoken language environment? How do you give them the best spoken language professionals and access to sound all the time BUT still surround them with people who can act as ASL mentors and provide them the fluent ASL model that a learning parent can not? How do you provide them sound, music, and fluent, colorful spoken language while actively making sure that everyone in their lives and community use ASL at all times around them?

I'm not the best person to answer that as I was too young. I can tell you that I remember bits and pieces where I was working with a speech therapist (I remember the whole placing my hand on her throat to feel the vibration of certain sounds thing,) as well as working with a teacher out of a book to learn vocabulary, as well as working with another teacher to learn signs. It was a full day split up into these different areas for a couple of years. There were about 10 of us or so and I still have pictures of us sitting around tables with a teacher, then rotating to another teacher, and so on ....

 

[shel90]

So how do you simultaneously teach ASL and spoken language? One of them MUST be the primary language. How do you fully immerse a child in voice off ASL, but at the same time immerse them in fluent spoken language? How do you teach them concepts and in which language? How can you possibly learn ASL, teach it to your child, while keeping them developmentally appropriate in all academics areas, AND spend all day giving them a rich spoken language environment? How do you give them the best spoken language professionals and access to sound all the time BUT still surround them with people who can act as ASL mentors and provide them the fluent ASL model that a learning parent can not? How do you provide them sound, music, and fluent, colorful spoken language while actively making sure that everyone in their lives and community use ASL at all times around them?

What's wrong with providing the fluent colorful spoken language you highly speak of in the home?

My hearing son gets spoken language at school and ASL at home. It isnt harming him at all.

Unless you think deaf children cannot pick up spoken language at home. If so, then why should they have it all times in the educational setting and risk falling behind due to not keeping up?

 

[faire_jour]

What's wrong with providing the fluent colorful spoken language you highly speak of in the home?

My hearing son gets spoken language at school and ASL at home. It isnt harming him at all.

Unless you think deaf children cannot pick up spoken language at home. If so, then why should they have it all times in the educational setting and risk falling behind due to not keeping up?

I thought your son was in speech therapy?

Yes a child can learn two languages at the same time, but it can cause delays in both languages. Also, I don't advocate for mixing modalities because it can cause regression when the child has to switch back and forth. Also, I think it is less than advisable to attempt to help a child in homework in a language that is completely different, with different vocabulary, syntax, etc, than that which the teacher will be using to teach, explain and test the child in.

 

[GrendelQ]

EXACTLY! Sequential learning! That is exactly what we chose for my daughter, and that is why be get burned at the stake over it. We chose ASL first and when she mastered it, we moved to the other language. She is now being immersed in spoken English, just as she was immersed in ASL as a very young child.

Right, and you know that for us it was a very tough call to go bilingual and focus on ASL at school (with acoustic access) and spoken language in the home (with sign support) -- we're very much aware that the learning in each is initially slowed by the split focus. We're currently optimistic, though, that by ~6 she could be caught up and age appropriate in both. The really critical element is peer engagement: in school, her peers are primarily signing kids. We have to ensure she's getting that same level of engagement with speaking/hearing kids to ensure both languages are getting that very important kick in the pants. Our plan from the start has been to do our best in both languages, assess at 6, and determine at that point if we needed to put our resources towards intensive development in either ASL or in English (alternating, as you have done) or if she is progressing at a good clip across all areas of study -- remain in this wonderful bilingual learning environment.

 

[shel90]

I thought your son was in speech therapy?

Yes a child can learn two languages at the same time, but it can cause delays in both languages. Also, I don't advocate for mixing modalities because it can cause regression when the child has to switch back and forth. Also, I think it is less than advisable to attempt to help a child in homework in a language that is completely different, with different vocabulary, syntax, etc, than that which the teacher will be using to teach, explain and test the child in.

He was delayed in both languages until he was 3. I think that would have happened regardless of being exposed to English only. Now, both his ASL and English are on age appropriate level. He doesnt get speech services anymore. It has been over a year now.

Did you have a problem with my son being in speech therapy?

 

[shel90]

I thought your son was in speech therapy?

Yes a child can learn two languages at the same time, but it can cause delays in both languages. Also, I don't advocate for mixing modalities because it can cause regression when the child has to switch back and forth. Also, I think it is less than advisable to attempt to help a child in homework in a language that is completely different, with different vocabulary, syntax, etc, than that which the teacher will be using to teach, explain and test the child in.

That doesnt make sense.

How do deaf parents help their hearing kids with their homework? Many of my deaf friends are doing that without a problem.

At least it is better than having absulotely no communication btw parent and child. If the parents want the child to learn spoken language, then the parents should learn ASL as well. Fair is fair.

 

[faire_jour]

He was delayed in both languages until he was 3. I think that would have happened regardless of being exposed to English only. Now, both his ASL and English are on age appropriate level. He doesnt get speech services anymore. It has been over a year now.

Did you have a problem with my son being in speech therapy?

I have always been told that many CODA's need speech therapy, some need it for many years. (Including the poster here Doubletrouble) I was just saying that having ASL at home and spoken language at school sometimes doesn't work perfectly either.

 

[GrendelQ]

Also, I think it is less than advisable to attempt to help a child in homework in a language that is completely different, with different vocabulary, syntax, etc, than that which the teacher will be using to teach, explain and test the child in.

That's where an acoustic access classroom helps I know Li-Li is getting the same vocabulary, the same concepts in both languages. She code switches with ease, fortunately. She seems to innately know deaf from hearing. Very different from my grandmother who, though fluent in 3 languages, had a knack for speaking German with English-speaking family members, and English with German-speaking family, and she'd often slip into dutch around her Bavarian German-speaking husband, who could barely make heads or tails of it.

Li-Li refuses to sign with my husband even when he won't speak and signs only (he is always very embarrassed by this when we're in mixed company - deaf/hearing - he's afraid people will think he doesn't sign with her (he does!) . He thinks she laughs at his signing . But with me, she'll sign half the time when we're alone, and always answer sign with sign, but will only speak to me when we're around her school, almost as if to say, 'oh mama, you can't keep up with us big kids here, we'll slow it down to speaking for you'.

 

[shel90]

I have always been told that many CODA's need speech therapy, some need it for many years. (Including the poster here Doubletrouble) I was just saying that having ASL at home and spoken language at school sometimes doesn't work perfectly either.

Sounds like you have a problem with it. Not my or my friends' problems as many of our kids are doing fine in school and society.

 

[faire_jour]

That doesnt make sense.

How do deaf parents help their hearing kids with their homework? Many of my deaf friends are doing that without a problem.

At least it is better than having absulotely no communication btw parent and child. If the parents want the child to learn spoken language, then the parents should learn ASL as well. Fair is fair.

There are deaf parents who expressed frustration at just that. For example, if a child has to give a memorized speech. If the parent is practicing with them in ASL, it isn't going to be the same as when they need to do it in English. Or spelling or vocabulary words for English. There are often not word for word translations for English to ASL. That would be another struggling point.

 

[sallylou]

Kids learn two languages simultaneously all of the time. Some kids learn two spoken languages at the same time (commonly in Europe). Some kids learn ASL and English at the same time (like CODAs). What's the big deal?

 

[GrendelQ]

He was delayed in both languages until he was 3. I think that would have happened regardless of being exposed to English only. Now, both his ASL and English are on age appropriate level. He doesnt get speech services anymore. It has been over a year now.

I think our little ones are roughly the same age -- that's what I'm experiencing too, it's what i expected, and even though it's a little scary early on when you aren't certain things will catch up, in the end, I think it's fine (it's not a race )

 

[AlleyCat]

Right, and you know that for us it was a very tough call to go bilingual and focus on ASL at school (with acoustic access) and spoken language in the home (with sign support) -- we're very much aware that the learning in each is initially slowed by the split focus. We're currently optimistic, though, that by ~6 she could be caught up and age appropriate in both. The really critical element is peer engagement: in school, her peers are primarily signing kids. We have to ensure she's getting that same level of engagement with speaking/hearing kids to ensure both languages are getting that very important kick in the pants. Our plan from the start has been to do our best in both languages, assess at 6, and determine at that point if we needed to put our resources towards intensive development in either ASL or in English (alternating, as you have done) or if she is progressing at a good clip across all areas of study -- remain in this wonderful bilingual learning environment.

I don't want to speak for others on this forum, so some may agree and some may disagree with my post here. I think what many of us have said is how important it is to have access to all languages. Li Li is only four, right? She is probably not of school age yet, meaning kindergarten. I personally don't think it is so important the sequence of learning languages, but more important that they have learned it for their growing up and school years. I would not burn a parent at the stake for teaching a child one language first, then master the other, especially at such a young age.

 

[shel90]

There are deaf parents who expressed frustration at just that. For example, if a child has to give a memorized speech. If the parent is practicing with them in ASL, it isn't going to be the same as when they need to do it in English. Or spelling or vocabulary words for English. There are often not word for word translations for English to ASL. That would be another struggling point.

Again, you seem to find problems in everything unless it is just oralism only.

 

[shel90]

I think our little ones are roughly the same age -- that's what I'm experiencing too, it's what i expected, and even though it's a little scary early on when you aren't certain things will catch up, in the end, I think it's fine (it's not a race )

As long as he is happy and thriving..that's all it matters. Why force him to be someone he is not? I am not interested in the race but interested in exposing my son to as many cultures and diversity.