Speaking and signing called key to richer life

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I make two bold statements which I agree with you on this. This is what I would want to have education on learning to sign in ASL and then have an interpreters in mainstream or oral-only school so that I can follow what everyone in the classroom, both in elementary and high school, easier for me to know what the lessons that we were suppose to learn and in order to make the grades A to B better than C- to D-. Trying to lipread is not going to solve getting to understand and trying to get better grades. It just make me frustrated as hell when I could not understand what the subjects that I need to know. You and FJ, you were talking about listening so that you expect your daughters to listen in the oral-only classrooms with CI. That is what make me laugh. It is the same with hearing aids, too many years ago. CI devices is still a tool for them to hear, not to listen. So both of you, get off the high horse. Sorry for being soooo blunt. :P

First of all, Grendel's daughter attends a bi-bi school. Her daughter is not in an oral school at all.

Second, I guess I don't understand the difference between the way you are using "hear" vs. "listen". Could you explain that a little more?

And again, I understand that you struggled to lipread. I totally get that. That is ridiculous, and I would never advocate for that. I know it is hard for you to believe, because your life experience was so completely different, but my child DOES hear and understand spoken language without lipreading. She understands, and I know that because she has been tested, many times, on just that exact thing. In her testing, my daughter understand greater than 95% of what she is presented. Again, this is without even being in the same room as the person speaking (so she can't possibly see their lips). I don't know how else to explain that. She hears, and she understands.
 
I make two bold statements which I agree with you on this. This is what I would want to have education on learning to sign in ASL and then have an interpreters in mainstream or oral-only school so that I can follow what everyone in the classroom, both in elementary and high school, easier for me to know what the lessons that we were suppose to learn and in order to make the grades A to B better than C- to D-. Trying to lipread is not going to solve getting to understand and trying to get better grades. It just make me frustrated as hell when I could not understand what the subjects that I need to know. You and FJ, you were talking about listening so that you expect your daughters to listen in the oral-only classrooms with CI. That is what make me laugh. It is the same with hearing aids, too many years ago. CI devices is still a tool for them to hear, not to listen. So both of you, get off the high horse. Sorry for being soooo blunt. :P

This is confusing -- you are against bi-bi / ASL-focused schools if they don't enforce the voices-off policy all-day instead of only part of the day -- as my daughter's school does -- for the children who do speak and hear? My daughter doesn't struggle to lipread when people are speaking -- she hears without lipreading (there are no lips in sight when she has conversations on phones, when she listens to music/the radio, or watches cartoons) and understands with lipreading (when people talk to her while her CIs are off). I'd say muzzling my daughter's natural language use by forcing "voices-off" is restrictive behavior. How is it being on a high horse to be open to full access to language? Do you only approve of access to "the full toolbox" including spoken language in theory, but not in practice?

It's telling that you continue to imply or even state directly that a child whose first language is ASL and whose primary learning environment is and has always been ASL-focused is "oral-only" simply because she has more recently been developing a full and fluent use of spoken English, despite her immersion in ASL. I look at both languages as valuable and vital to my daughter. You have a clear and very bitter bias against English. Don't begrudge today's children the access you didn't have. I don't begrudge the advantages my child had compared with my own (huge difference). Tomorrow's children will have much greater access than my daughter -- and that's a very good thing.
 
This is confusing -- you are against bi-bi / ASL-focused schools if they don't enforce the voices-off policy all-day instead of only part of the day -- as my daughter's school does -- for the children who do speak and hear? My daughter doesn't struggle to lipread when people are speaking -- she hears without lipreading (there are no lips in sight when she has conversations on phones, when she listens to music/the radio, or watches cartoons) and understands with lipreading (when people talk to her while her CIs are off). I'd say muzzling my daughter's natural language use by forcing "voices-off" is restrictive behavior. How is it being on a high horse to be open to full access to language? Do you only approve of access to "the full toolbox" including spoken language in theory, but not in practice?

It's telling that you continue to imply or even state directly that a child whose first language is ASL and whose primary learning environment is and has always been ASL-focused is "oral-only" simply because she has more recently been developing a full and fluent use of spoken English, despite her immersion in ASL. I look at both languages as valuable and vital to my daughter. You have a clear and very bitter bias against English. Don't begrudge today's children the access you didn't have. I don't begrudge the advantages my child had compared with my own (huge difference). Tomorrow's children will have much greater access than my daughter -- and that's a very good thing.

The answer to the bolded is "No." You are misunderstanding Bebonang's position on education. I have discussed this issue with her at length and know what she believes.

Again, you are discounting the experiences of the deaf in favor of what the hearing want to believe. The very definition of audist.
 
I do not really trust all parents when they say "... BUT I am providing ASL!" Just like I don't trust them when they say "I am providing sex education"

Which is important to me that there must be some ASL lessons in school. They can heavily focus Oralism all they want though.

Neither do I. Anecdote supports the fact that the parent that chooses an oral educational environment is using minimal sign at home, if that much.
 
Jillio...just give it up. It is apparent that she will always find fault with ASL, the BiBi approach and Deaf people. Let her go.

I have to admit, that is good advice.:lol:
 
The answer to the bolded is "No." You are misunderstanding Bebonang's position on education. I have discussed this issue with her at length and know what she believes.

Again, you are discounting the experiences of the deaf in favor of what the hearing want to believe. The very definition of audist.


No, I take my deaf daughter's experiences very seriously. Her needs and opportunities are paramount in my thoughts and actions. I take the advice of smart, experienced, thoughtful deaf men and women daily. I do, however, discount the bitter, dried-up, self-justifying accounts that Bebonang and you share on this forum, because 1. you have no intention of engaging or interacting in a positive or productive way with anyone who deviates from the path you took long, long ago and are intent only upon validating and 2. you don't know or understand my daughter or her deafness and yet insist upon pushing your baggage and Deaf dogma upon her without listening, without making any attempt to comprehend her unique environment and situation (which you discount), and with prejudice up to your eyeballs.

Bebonang's continued tirades about me being "oral-only" and pushing for "oral-only" are tiresome and offensive and I just don't feel like letting then stand today. My daughter is in and has been in a bi-bi school for the deaf where ASL is the language of instruction for 2 years, prior to that was in an ASL child care environment for the language immersion (instead of near me at a care center provided by my work) and had 3X weekly language therapy -- in ASL -- as part of her early intervention program from the time she was 1 year and 2 weeks old (just 2 weeks after we brought her home from China). It's ridiculous, yet I feel the need to outline these choices in every other post I make, and even still the accusations of "oral-only" persist.

ASL, yes! And she has CIs, too! And :eek3: they WORK! Bebonang can't compute this and still simplifies the situation down to a truly stupid battle of ASL v. Oral. Others have insisted that valuing (or should I say "forcing my daughter to use") both ASL and spoken language means I want to sterilize my daughter. These are truly nasty, ugly people whose bitterness must just crawl through them like worms.

Exposing her to both languages takes effort and intervention both on her part and ours -- and more of both goes to providing ASL than to providing spoken language, which she also picks up incidentally and peripherally. Effort doesn't make either of these choices wrong or harmful or unnatural. I've never leveraged the ease and success with which my daughter communicates in spoken language against the value of her ability to wield ASL. I've always argued for as much access to communication as possible. I'm so very happy that she has BOTH. I'm as adamant that she have access to written language, as well. Yes, I want her to communicate using written language, too, and I'll shout it from the rooftops. That doesn't mean I'm denigrating ASL. Similarly, I'm thrilled that she can speak and hear beautifully! That, too, doesn't mean I'm denigrating ASL, but for those bitter and nasty worm-eaten few who take any mention of spoken language as an affront, that mention becomes a challenge you to to insult and offend those of us who value English -- the whole bimodal language -- as well as ASL.

And you need to just stop this. My child's means of communicating is not your battleground. There's nobody on this forum who is anti-ASL, so get over the paranoia and put your efforts towards making ASL instruction and exposure viable in the real world, where there is a serious lack of access to it. The bilingual among us can act as a bridge or conduit, a marketing channel of sorts, but you seem intent on burning those relationships at every turn.

Jillio, your repeated and nonsensical lobbing of the term "audist" at me is ridiculous and petty and doesn't help: your self-doubt is showing. Valuing any particular language or mode of language is not in of itself audism, discriminating against or oppressing a Deaf or HOH person is the definition of audism. It's you -- a hearing person -- who are doing that to my daughter -- a deaf person -- but I'd rather bin the nonsense than toss the accusation right back at you.
 
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How judegemental can one poster get? What a shame that hearing parents fail to realize that the experiences of the deaf adults on this forum parallel the experiences their deaf children will have in the same environment. Regarding bitterness...the deaf have a right to feelings of bitterness given the oppression they have experienced at the hands of hearing individuals who think they know what's best for a deaf person than the deaf themselves do. Your post is a perfect example of that.

You need to take responsibility for the responses you get. Your posts are what creates those reactions. Of course, I'm certainly not going to hold my breath for you to take that responsibility. It is very obvious that you have no intention of paying the slightest bit of attention to the deaf perspective. And that is truly a shame. Frankly, I have no idea why you are even present here. Every post you make discounts a deaf member's, or a hearing member's accounting from the deaf perspective. I have seen not a single ounce of empathy for the deaf in any of your posts. I have, however, seen a great deal of superiority and mistaken belief that you have learned all about deafness in a matter of a few short months.

BTW: leave the psych assessments to those qualified to do them. You show evidence of extreme lack of information and ability in that area.

And the definition of audism is a belief that hearing is superior to deafness. Included in that definition is the belief that spoken language is superior to signed. Maybe you need to study a bit about audism and the covert ways in which it shows itself.
 
BTW: leave the psych assessments to those qualified to do them.

What's wrong Jillio, afraid someone else with "credentials" you thought you were the only one with a right to wave around might claim your BS routine? Be calm, I have no interest in your role. You've got quite a racket going on trying to convince people that you, all-wise hearing mother of oral+ASL deaf child (is that how you're 'branding' your waffling from oral to ASL and halfway back again?) know better than all others who are deaf or live with deafness do and are somehow more able to communicate on behalf of all who are deaf. You aren't. You may speak validly for some, but certainly not for the majority, much less for all who are deaf. You don't speak for my daughter. Don't dare try. You aren't qualified.
 
GrendelQ is cool, but she should read "hearing privilege" It will help her a lot. 3

Thanks deafgal -- I've just started reading it with your earlier post -- it really is very interesting!
 
How judegemental can one poster get? What a shame that hearing parents fail to realize that the experiences of the deaf adults on this forum parallel the experiences their deaf children will have in the same environment. Regarding bitterness...the deaf have a right to feelings of bitterness given the oppression they have experienced at the hands of hearing individuals who think they know what's best for a deaf person than the deaf themselves do. Your post is a perfect example of that.

You need to take responsibility for the responses you get. Your posts are what creates those reactions. Of course, I'm certainly not going to hold my breath for you to take that responsibility. It is very obvious that you have no intention of paying the slightest bit of attention to the deaf perspective. And that is truly a shame. Frankly, I have no idea why you are even present here. Every post you make discounts a deaf member's, or a hearing member's accounting from the deaf perspective. I have seen not a single ounce of empathy for the deaf in any of your posts. I have, however, seen a great deal of superiority and mistaken belief that you have learned all about deafness in a matter of a few short months.

BTW: leave the psych assessments to those qualified to do them. You show evidence of extreme lack of information and ability in that area.

And the definition of audism is a belief that hearing is superior to deafness. Included in that definition is the belief that spoken language is superior to signed. Maybe you need to study a bit about audism and the covert ways in which it shows itself.

My problem is with your assertion that one deaf person speaks for ALL deaf people. You pretend that there is one "deaf perspective" and that all who don't make all their decisions based on this one person's view are "disrespecting the experiences of deaf adults". Not a single word of Grendel's response was disrespecting someone's experience, it was responding to clearly false claims.

And as for "disrespecting a deaf adult's experience", that is done CONSTANTLY here by people who call oral deaf people socially backward, say they they never learned language, that they are in denial, that they don't have friends, and on and on. You have picked ONE perspective and declared that it is the only acceptable voice for deaf people.
 
My problem is with your assertion that one deaf person speaks for ALL deaf people. You pretend that there is one "deaf perspective" and that all who don't make all their decisions based on this one person's view are "disrespecting the experiences of deaf adults". Not a single word of Grendel's response was disrespecting someone's experience, it was responding to clearly false claims.

And as for "disrespecting a deaf adult's experience", that is done CONSTANTLY here by people who call oral deaf people socially backward, say they they never learned language, that they are in denial, that they don't have friends, and on and on. You have picked ONE perspective and declared that it is the only acceptable voice for deaf people.

what's wrong with that? hearing students have ONE standard with ONE perspective. why don't deafies have same?

if they do not like to abide by ONE standard... they are free to leave for private school of their choosing but I have a feeling that most deafies would be happy with one standard with one perspective. A-S-L :D
 
As usual, everyone has a problem with each other.

By the way, Merry Christmas.
 
what's wrong with that? hearing students have ONE standard with ONE perspective. why don't deafies have same?

if they do not like to abide by ONE standard... they are free to leave for private school of their choosing but I have a feeling that most deafies would be happy with one standard with one perspective. A-S-L :D

But there is no single "hearing perspective". I don't believe there is only one deaf perspective. There are deaf people who cue, who sign, who listen and speak, and there are deaf people who advocate for all of those things. Why do people pretend that the anti-CI, anti-oral, ASL-first perspective is the only deaf perspective?
 
But there is no single "hearing perspective". I don't believe there is only one deaf perspective. There are deaf people who cue, who sign, who listen and speak, and there are deaf people who advocate for all of those things. Why do people pretend that the anti-CI, anti-oral, ASL-first perspective is the only deaf perspective?

let me explain then.

hearing students in all schools speak and write the same language - English. Anything else... that's fine as long as everybody speaks and writes the same. Now how about deafies? way way way too many. It's disgusting. The result is already apparent enough. A significant portion of deafies is not.... independent enough.
 
let me explain then.

hearing students in all schools speak and write the same language - English. Anything else... that's fine as long as everybody speaks and writes the same. Now how about deafies? way way way too many. It's disgusting. The result is already apparent enough. A significant portion of deafies is not.... independent enough.

In order to make a standard, you would have to be able to prove that ASL and English have better outcomes than English only. I have yet to see a study that shows that using ASL to teach English works better than teaching English. And, again, I know deaf people who would work to have the language be English, that do not think that ASL is the best way to educate deaf children.

But, that is far off base from what I was talking about. I was simply saying that there is not a single deaf perspective that all adhere to, and that by disagreeing, you are not puting down or disrespecting that "deaf experience" (because there is NOT one perspective, there are tons).
 
What's wrong Jillio, afraid someone else with "credentials" you thought you were the only one with a right to wave around might claim your BS routine? Be calm, I have no interest in your role. You've got quite a racket going on trying to convince people that you, all-wise hearing mother of oral+ASL deaf child (is that how you're 'branding' your waffling from oral to ASL and halfway back again?) know better than all others who are deaf or live with deafness do and are somehow more able to communicate on behalf of all who are deaf. You aren't. You may speak validly for some, but certainly not for the majority, much less for all who are deaf. You don't speak for my daughter. Don't dare try. You aren't qualified.

Not at all. You don't have the credentials. And I dislike misinformation in this field as much as I dislike misinformation re: deafness. I don't need to convince people of anything. The people who matter already know. And those who have issues they project onto me are not of the least concern to me.

You might want to pay a bit more attention to what the deaf themselves say about what I do. The judgement of the hearing with a few months experience is the least of my concerns.
 
In order to make a standard, you would have to be able to prove that ASL and English have better outcomes than English only. I have yet to see a study that shows that using ASL to teach English works better than teaching English. And, again, I know deaf people who would work to have the language be English, that do not think that ASL is the best way to educate deaf children.

But, that is far off base from what I was talking about. I was simply saying that there is not a single deaf perspective that all adhere to, and that by disagreeing, you are not puting down or disrespecting that "deaf experience" (because there is NOT one perspective, there are tons).

so since hearing students have one standard.... do you believe we should have same standard for deaf students too?
 
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