Smith files Deaf Child’s Bill of Rights Act

Passivist said:
I suggest this is guesswork deafdyke, there's so much variation in world deaf and HI education that is supposition too. CHILDREN are different, sign language DOES affect speech it's a well-known and documented fact. It creates confusion in the border-line deaf particularly. ASL is a VISUAL language, (so they keep telling me !), it is suggested verbals, orals, are no part or basis of it.

For those children with an ability to oralise as WELL, (NOT ONLY !), this is going to cause, and does, conflict, you are subconciously made to choose. As an ADULT I found this after a hearing background, I did the sign classes and was told to shut up, (i.e. not use speech too much, because this confuses other deaf people), and classes in BSL in the UK STILL advocate this approach to HEARING students of sign language too. My mother saw it first, she said after 3 months of learning sign language my voice was going, I was not using it anywhere near what I used to. I had no idea.

I Panicked ! I stopped signing for a year to get my voice back to what it was, sign language is VERY deceptive ! it creeps up on you ! Now I would never use sign language without speech as well, I use SE too to maintain the ideal....and this has set me apart from the 'community', because I also split my social time more evenly between hearing and deaf interaction, I don't want to lose my voice again, if it happens to an adult, you can well imagine a child as yet not learning the basics could be seduced into silence via a sign only approach never to regain it. Speech is like sign, you use it, or LOSE IT !

My way is to ensure I Keep up both but it is a daily and lifetime of intense concentration to maintain that... I don't want to end up mute..... I don't want to abdiacte from the hearing world. Hence I wouldn't want deaf children that way either if the remotest chance exists they don't have to. I'd always oppose any sign only approach based on facts, it affects your voice. I'm not a rampant oralist/audist or whatever the current name the Americans have invented, I am stating a FACT, it happens.

It was stated in Milan too, but the deaf never looked at anything but the sign ban.... (Which was probably a mistake it detracted from the info the people of that time gave out), the education of deaf children remains the same, we can't offer deaf children direct and conflicting modes of communication without some line being drawn. Or you force them into A or B and no-one is...
Click to expand...

When you attempt to compare adventitously deafened adults with prelingually deafened children, you are comparing apples and oranges. The issues are different. Adventitously deafended individuals hae already developed a native language--they are in no danger of suffering the consequences of language deprivation. Prelingually defened children are, however at extremely high risk for these complications, and the complications affect all area of development as related to the prelingually deafened child.

Post-lingually deafened adults have experienced a loss, and unless they deal with the grief associated with this or any type of loss, they will always view their hearing loss as just that--something they have lost and reminisce over. Pre-lingually deafened children have not experienced a loss, therefore they do not miss having auditory function. That is exactly why they must be taught to use HA or CI or any other assistive devise. It is not a natural and known situation for them to experience auditory input. When these children are aided with assistive listening devises, you are not returning lost function to them, you are creating a new experience that is foreign to them. That is why many prelingually deaf view amplification as an intrusion on their world, much the same way a post-lingually deafened adult feels loss of hearing to be an intrusion on their world.

To argue the use of sign vs.oral language in regard to prelingually deafened children effectively, you must use their perspective and not the perspective of post-lingually adults.
 
*off topic*

I apolgize for the triple postings of the same post. I was posting from my SK so I guess it got tripled.


Anyways, I agree with Jillo about the comparision of late deafened adults to prelingual deaf children. There is no comparision at all.
 
Actually jillo and shel90, I believe Passcifist is one of the rare childhood ADs, not someone who became dhh as an adult. But, childhood and adult ADs have a lot of simlair issues.
But, you know Passcifst, back in the last century a lot of childhood ADs became part of the Deaf World.
 
deafdyke said:
Actually jillo and shel90, I believe Passcifist is one of the rare childhood ADs, not someone who became dhh as an adult. But, childhood and adult ADs have a lot of simlair issues.
But, you know Passcifst, back in the last century a lot of childhood ADs became part of the Deaf World.
Click to expand...

I understand and how he wants to live his life or what mode of communication he chooses as he sees fit doesnt bother me. What he said about signing is deceptive for children with residual hearing is what I dont agree with.
 
I know...........I totally 100% agree with you. There are lots of hoh CODAs out there, who have been able to master ASL AND speech without it "interfearing with residual hearing"
 
Oh, and Passcifist.................I'm currently taking a Deaf History class. Back in the old days, a lot of the childhood deafened kids, were sent to the School for the Deaf............and they fit in....Matter of fact, they became the HIGH ACHIVERS!!!! *gasp* I still think that there are some AD kids, who could really significently benifit from ASL and Sign and stuff.
 
deafdyke said:
Actually jillo and shel90, I believe Passcifist is one of the rare childhood ADs, not someone who became dhh as an adult. But, childhood and adult ADs have a lot of simlair issues.
But, you know Passcifst, back in the last century a lot of childhood ADs became part of the Deaf World.
Click to expand...

Oops, my bad!:giggle: But AD after the age of primary langauge acquisition still has issues separate from deaf/hh prelinguals. Agree?
 
shel90 said:
I understand and how he wants to live his life or what mode of communication he chooses as he sees fit doesnt bother me. What he said about signing is deceptive for children with residual hearing is what I dont agree with.
Click to expand...

**nodding agreement** Off topic----cute, cute baby!
 
But AD after the age of primary langauge acquisition still has issues separate from deaf/hh prelinguals. Agree?
Click to expand...
Very true. But I also think that most kid posties are a mix. Anyone know if there are stats on the web about when postie kids lose their hearing?
Younger postie kids would have a mix of issues,(ie more peri....cusp of language issues, since they 're still learning language) but older posties (seven and up) wouldn't really have those issues..........they'd be more adult posties.
 
Gee, Passifst.............looks like you don't know how to respond! :dance:
And the thing is, that things have changed. A hundred years ago there were a lot of older kid posties in the Deaf population. Now, most posties tend to be progressive loss kids. Going deaf suddenly during childhood is now probaly extremely rare.
 
deafdyke said:
Gee, Passifst.............looks like you don't know how to respond! :dance:
And the thing is, that things have changed. A hundred years ago there were a lot of older kid posties in the Deaf population. Now, most posties tend to be progressive loss kids. Going deaf suddenly during childhood is now probaly extremely rare.
Click to expand...

I'm more than able to respond, it's just not going anywhere now ..... we seem to have reached the plateau on this item, no-one is going to change their view. :dunno: So you're sayingthe old deaf no longer exist then as any force ? so who is making all the noise then ? SO long as you have had a useful db you won't get into the deaf thing, it would be like that river in Egypt (de-nile).
 
So you're sayingthe old deaf no longer exist then as any force ? so who is making all the noise then ? SO long as you have had a useful db you won't get into the deaf thing, it would be like that river in Egypt (de-nile).
Click to expand...
That's easy..............older late deafened people. Older people (adults, not nessarily elderly people) who've lost their hearing, make up the bulk of the dhh population. Their issues tend to mirror older posties.......(like kids who lost their hearing post seven years old) And its strange......back in the old days, posties were sent to deaf schools, and became the LEADERS of the Deaf world..............I wonder what happened?
 
deafdyke said:
That's easy..............older late deafened people. Older people (adults, not nessarily elderly people) who've lost their hearing, make up the bulk of the dhh population. Their issues tend to mirror older posties.......(like kids who lost their hearing post seven years old) And its strange......back in the old days, posties were sent to deaf schools, and became the LEADERS of the Deaf world..............I wonder what happened?
Click to expand...

I don't know about the USA, but the acquired deaf run most things here in the UK, including many sign using groups, seems we have that extra 'edge' and link to mainstream they haven't.... this is a complete turn around from 20 years ago, when it was virtually impossible a non-dedicated sign user could reach such office in their groups. I recall 18 years ago, when I joined a deaf club I said I would do the secretary's job if they liked, because they couldn't get a volunteer among their 'own', they made it quite clear I had to do another 20 years as a signer and get 'accepted' first, I didn't wait obviously...

What I did do was form another club, and ran that ! The last few years I have been approached 7 times to take over jobs at the deaf club, I have declined now, because I haven't the time. The signing community here just doesn't seem to have people that want involvement now, young deaf especially take no interest at all. Sign of the times ! There does seem some backlash, because they don't like the way non-deafies (But still deaf people), are monopolizing the systems and putting sign second... or just one means among many to be considered, this apparently strikes at the core of culture in that sign is seen integral to having a culture and community, obviously, ADHH, have alternatives... and it's up to the 'Deaf' to start coming forward if they want the old systems to continue, because ADHH clearly don't.

A major and long-standing 'Deaf' group in the UK of over a 100 yrs (The BDA), is virtually bankrupt... there's few want to bail it out, and the membership is very low. I'm expecting a call soon..... :whistle:
 
Passicifst, the "hearing impaired" population in this country really isn't too organized. ..There's just basicly SHHH/HLA and saywhatclub. The Deaf community tends to be a lot more formally organized.
 
I am all for it. It is like if a child lost his leg and the mother feel he need to wear prosthetic leg all day, how would he handle if it start hurting him (in our case, trying to communicate get tiring and we get burn out often)
He would need a wheel chair to give him a break, would him?


As a severe HOH since birth who use oral communication, I sure do wished I learned ASL as a child. I think my Education would have been better that way. But I still want to communicate with hearings.
 
Last edited:
Passivist said:
I suggest this is guesswork deafdyke, there's so much variation in world deaf and HI education that is supposition too. CHILDREN are different, sign language DOES affect speech it's a well-known and documented fact. It creates confusion in the border-line deaf particularly. ASL is a VISUAL language, (so they keep telling me !), it is suggested verbals, orals, are no part or basis of it.

For those children with an ability to oralise as WELL, (NOT ONLY !), this is going to cause, and does, conflict, you are subconciously made to choose. As an ADULT I found this after a hearing background, I did the sign classes and was told to shut up, (i.e. not use speech too much, because this confuses other deaf people), and classes in BSL in the UK STILL advocate this approach to HEARING students of sign language too. My mother saw it first, she said after 3 months of learning sign language my voice was going, I was not using it anywhere near what I used to. I had no idea.

I Panicked ! I stopped signing for a year to get my voice back to what it was, sign language is VERY deceptive ! it creeps up on you ! Now I would never use sign language without speech as well, I use SE too to maintain the ideal....and this has set me apart from the 'community', because I also split my social time more evenly between hearing and deaf interaction, I don't want to lose my voice again, if it happens to an adult, you can well imagine a child as yet not learning the basics could be seduced into silence via a sign only approach never to regain it. Speech is like sign, you use it, or LOSE IT !

My way is to ensure I Keep up both but it is a daily and lifetime of intense concentration to maintain that... I don't want to end up mute..... I don't want to abdiacte from the hearing world. Hence I wouldn't want deaf children that way either if the remotest chance exists they don't have to. I'd always oppose any sign only approach based on facts, it affects your voice. I'm not a rampant oralist/audist or whatever the current name the Americans have invented, I am stating a FACT, it happens.

It was stated in Milan too, but the deaf never looked at anything but the sign ban.... (Which was probably a mistake it detracted from the info the people of that time gave out), the education of deaf children remains the same, we can't offer deaf children direct and conflicting modes of communication without some line being drawn. Or you force them into A or B and no-one is...
Click to expand...

What's different does it make. You had perfect speech in begin with. For me since I am Severe HOH since birth and never learned ASL, And people have a hard time understanding what I am saying. I have to repeat or come up another way of explaining myself. Beside, deaf people's are very capable to use visual communication AND oral communication....unless you stop using one of each. But hey, if you saying the visual communication affect speech, you might as well stop reading books.


yes you can keep working at your speech, but you'll end up feeling burn out and overwhelmed, and people still make comments about your speech anyway no matter how hard you try. Why don't you take a look at the majority of HOH since birth and see how they feel about relying on Oral communication. It is a fact that majority of them wished they use ASL when they were kids. I know I do. Deaf children deserve the best education, not the best "speech". Lack of Visual communication keep deaf children from being educated. I am for Oral communicate being taught as well too.
 
Last edited:
nightcrickets said:
What's different does it make. You had perfect speech in begin with. For me since I am Severe HOH since birth and never learned ASL, And people have a hard time understanding what I am saying. I have to repeat or come up another way of explaining myself. Beside, deaf people's are very capable to use visual communication AND oral communication....unless you stop using one of each. But hey, if you saying the visual communication affect speech, you might as well stop reading books.


yes you can keep working at your speech, but you'll end up feeling burn out and overwhelmed, and people still make comments about your speech anyway no matter how hard you try. Why don't you take a look at the majority of HOH since birth and see how they feel about relying on Oral communication. It is a fact that majority of them wished they use ASL when they were kids. I know I do. Deaf children deserve the best education, not the best "speech". Lack of Visual communication keep deaf children from being educated. I am for Oral communicate being taught as well too.
Click to expand...

I'd only advocate speech for those capable, and as an extra string to their bow, anything that can assist a deaf child or adult to communicate easier has to be supported. Deaf politics has no place in the schoolroom. As an ADULT I will always support speech usage, I'm no supporter of those deaf who CAN, but have stopped talking to sign instead, this is sheer waste, it is dogmatic, and futile, and what for ? to prove how 'Deaf' they are ? You would be surprised at those deaf who have taken up the biblical story of 'Throw away your crutches and walk....", by throwing away their speaking skills and hearing aids to be 'Deaf' ! This is plain abuse, and a sad state of affairs when you feel you have to do this, to 'fit in'... Isolation drives many to do things they normally would be horrified of doing. I dislike deaf activists who campaign along those lines too, I would really oppose them.
 
Passivist said:
I'd only advocate speech for those capable, and as an extra string to their bow, anything that can assist a deaf child or adult to communicate easier has to be supported. Deaf politics has no place in the schoolroom. As an ADULT I will always support speech usage, I'm no supporter of those deaf who CAN, but have stopped talking to sign instead, this is sheer waste, it is dogmatic, and futile, and what for ? to prove how 'Deaf' they are ? You would be surprised at those deaf who have taken up the biblical story of 'Throw away your crutches and walk....", by throwing away their speaking skills and hearing aids to be 'Deaf' ! This is plain abuse, and a sad state of affairs when you feel you have to do this, to 'fit in'... Isolation drives many to do things they normally would be horrified of doing. I dislike deaf activists who campaign along those lines too, I would really oppose them.
Click to expand...

If the deaf adult wants to stop using their speech and be fully involved in the deaf world but are happy...so what? As long as they r happy, working and leading productive lives, so what if they don't want to be "hearing" again? It is each individual's decision. Same for deaf people who want nothing to do with ASL or deaf culture..

People r different. We shouldn't live our lives the way others want us to just because others think that is a waste or whatever. As long as everyone is happy living their lives the way they want to without committing crimes, taking advantage of others, or abusing themselves and others, SO WHAT?

Why do deaf people who have speech skills need to be involved with the hearing world if they r not comfortable with it?

I still interact with the hearing world but not as much as I do in the deaf world and that shud be my business just as it is your business to live your life how u want to.
 
nightcrickets............excellent point! Passcifist, you had perfect speech. (with maybe a bit of polishing needed) You never had togo through the tediousness of going "boo bee bah" in speech.
Shel, I agree with you and Passcifst......we need to stop playing political mindgames, and simply work at trying to give dhh kids a FULL TOOLBOX of options, that they can choose ON THEIR OWN to use as THEY see fit!
Pass.... the number of Sign onliers is VERY small.
 
Back
Top