Should low quality firearms be eliminated or raise the price?

To me, it means more guns being used in crimes. Being cheap, means more guns being purchased, means more guns being stolen. A direct relationship between all variations. It's like this:
Cheap guns = more purchases in cheap guns = more guns stolen/purchased/lost/strawman = more criminals with guns. If I put it in another way. Are you saying that many criminals have the more expensive, luxury, or nicer class choice of firearms?
Yes, they do. Probably not the majority but they do have them.


Most guns used in common crimes are generally cheaper guns, which are often stolen or however they obtained it.
Maybe. I don't have those statistics. Do you?


How do you know that it's always rich people with their guns stolen especially from vehicles?
I didn't say "always rich people." Of course, they're more likely than poor people to own cars.

Poor people can have their guns stolen too... If you look up the most commonly stolen cars, it's generally non upper-class cars.
Like the link said, the guns are stolen out of cars, not that the cars themselves are stolen.

I feel that rich people can afford better security measures, like a immovable cabinet or whatever compared to the choices people with fewer money can afford.
But even the best safes are worthless if they are left open, or the guns aren't put away.


I feel differently about this, so there is a disagreement in our opinions. I think of some poor people who purchased it in fear or intimidation of some local issue. They might not necessarily have the security measures to accomodate their purchase, they end up hiding it in places to be easily stolen.
OK.


It is the ATF's released information available here: http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Firearms/2012-firearms-reported-lost-and-stolen.pdf
There aren't information on income/poverty/whatnot. Those need to be obtained from other channels.
OK.


You are taking it personally though, I've never said anything about any specific person's habit. Let's say this in another way. If poor people are better at keeping their purchases secure, then why are so many cheap and stolen guns being the retrieved weapons in crimes? And often, they're stolen.. Plus I don't see many rich people buying the cheaper guns.
Do you have demographics on the purchasers of cheap guns? Rich people can buy whatever they want, and that includes what you call cheap guns. Not all good guns have to be expensive. Guns are a very personal decision.

This is not information available to anyone, if you have channels that can give that information then you might be able to make a better opinion.
As could you.

I'm a firm believer that cheap guns are more frequently used in crimes simply because they are cheap alone. Them being stolen from poorer folks or whatnot is just the icing on top of the cake.
OK. I can't believe that without some numbers to back up that theory.
 
And they are rarely used for crimes. They are made for a one time purpose deal which I don't think represents the average criminal. Maybe a syndicate hitman trying to get pass metal detectors or something, but I doubt we will see them being used very often in crime situations compared to cheaper/regular guns that cost a bit more.

I didn't say save in the sense they made honest money. I am saying save as they salvaged their income, whether illicit or legal to buy a "real" gun. Rather than spend their assets immediately on zip guns/materials for them.

Cheap guns means more guns being available. Honestly, are you going to see many H&K .45's out there in the hands of criminals in comparison to Hi-Point .380's?

If you had to take a guess, out of a scale of 0-100%, how many H&K .45's are in the hands of criminals vs Hi-Point .380's?
I'm sure you already have a general sense that there are less H&K's out there, and there's more Hi-Point .380's, which means more HP .380's in the hands of criminals.

If there was a lesser supply of these .380's (whether from price, or supply), there would be less criminal sporting Hi-Point .380 guns. They will move on to the next cheap weapon.
I would not guess at any such thing. I would have to see some real statistics and demographics.
 
Maybe it's just because there are more cheap guns made than expensive guns. I'm more likely to be hit by a Honda than a Jaguar because there are more of them. That doesn't mean Hondas are more dangerous.
You are sort of getting to the point I'm trying to get across. If you became a criminal's target, you are probably more likely to be a victim facing the muzzle of a Hi-Point or Bersa gun than you would be with a H&K or F&N (hope that brings more sense in what I am saying). I kind of debate/wonder if there were no more cheap guns that they were all at a certain price tag, the gun choice differentiates and we will see less criminals with a gun because there were simply less available to begin with.

There already is regulation in place to control gun sales. What other regulation do you propose to keep things from getting "too cheap?"
Just some general consideration, that's what the debate I want to bring in is about. If there was an opportunity that guns can't be easily bought due to the price by anyone, same concept with pregnancy medication, booze or tobacco or whatnot. There might be a rift that reduces people attempting those things.

It's also not necessarily true that it's a negative thing. Besides, the alternative could possibly infringe on their Second Amendment rights.
I can agree with that. It's not necessarily positive or negative, there's just some line that needs to be considered on where to set it at.

Maybe. I don't have those statistics. Do you?
Yes, I do have these statistics. I work with them and see the numbers for my location. But I don't want to share any information on them out of ethics.

Like the link said, the guns are stolen out of cars, not that the cars themselves are stolen.
Yeah, but then again anyone can have their cars stolen, and auto thieves have certain models in more demand than others for a reason.

But even the best safes are worthless if they are left open, or the guns aren't put away.
True, but you still have to agree better security is better than none at all.

Do you have demographics on the purchasers of cheap guns? Rich people can buy whatever they want, and that includes what you call cheap guns. Not all good guns have to be expensive. Guns are a very personal decision.
I don't mean to offend anyone by saying "cheap guns". I'm just referring to the lower end of the spectrum, where they can be bought for the $100-250 range. I do think rich people are less likely to buy cheap guns in similarity with them buying cheap cars/personal homes/assets, just a general thing.

OK. I can't believe that without some numbers to back up that theory.
From the ATF document:
Reporting by law enforcement is voluntary, not mandatory, and thus the statistics in this report likely reveal only a fraction of the problem.
They don't release information about everything, the general public will only see types.. Handguns, Rifles, so on.
 
I would not guess at any such thing. I would have to see some real statistics and demographics.
Maybe if you can get a chance or opportunity, have a talk with some of your local authorities?
See if they are willing to give you a general opinion over some of the materials in this debate. While I don't think they will give you statistical information, they might be more likely to share a general opinion about it.
 
You are sort of getting to the point I'm trying to get across. If you became a criminal's target, you are probably more likely to be a victim facing the muzzle of a Hi-Point or Bersa gun than you would be with a H&K or F&N (hope that brings more sense in what I am saying). I kind of debate/wonder if there were no more cheap guns that they were all at a certain price tag, the gun choice differentiates and we will see less criminals with a gun because there were simply less available to begin with.
Nope. If the cheaper models weren't available the criminals would use the more expensive models. Criminality isn't driven by weapon availability.


Just some general consideration, that's what the debate I want to bring in is about. If there was an opportunity that guns can't be easily bought due to the price by anyone, same concept with pregnancy medication, booze or tobacco or whatnot. There might be a rift that reduces people attempting those things.
Well, outright prohibition didn't work, so I doubt that price controls would work either. It would just make it harder for honest citizens to arm themselves.


I can agree with that. It's not necessarily positive or negative, there's just some line that needs to be considered on where to set it at.
What is that line?


Yes, I do have these statistics. I work with them and see the numbers for my location. But I don't want to share any information on them out of ethics.
Then I guess we'll never know.


Yeah, but then again anyone can have their cars stolen, and auto thieves have certain models in more demand than others for a reason.
Yes, but that has nothing to do with guns that are stolen out of cars, such as at the car wash. The guns get stolen but the cars get left alone.


True, but you still have to agree better security is better than none at all.
Yes, and all security methods are worthless when they aren't used. (Doors left unlocked, alarms unset, windows left open, guns not put into safes that they have, etc.)


I don't mean to offend anyone by saying "cheap guns". I'm just referring to the lower end of the spectrum, where they can be bought for the $100-250 range. I do think rich people are less likely to buy cheap guns in similarity with them buying cheap cars/personal homes/assets, just a general thing.


From the ATF document:
They don't release information about everything, the general public will only see types.. Handguns, Rifles, so on.
So, that doesn't tell us about cheap gun vs. expensive gun.
 
Nope. If the cheaper models weren't available the criminals would use the more expensive models. Criminality isn't driven by weapon availability.

However, the liklihood of a person becoming injured or dead from a gun in a crime is driven by weapon availability, wether illicit or legal. The only way (in the scope of this topic) I can think of to propose to reduce unnecessary deaths is to reduce supply. I think some criminals would move on to simpler weapons like sharp or blunts, resulting in less people dead. There might be less of a differentiation between gun models of criminals, but that's only because there's less available, just based on the general principles.

Well, outright prohibition didn't work, so I doubt that price controls would work either. It would just make it harder for honest citizens to arm themselves.

Law of economics. When gas prices rose, less people drove. More people walked or took public transportation, so on. ^ source:
http://www.prac.com/public/Plymouthrock/staticfiles/PDF/MA_Gas_Impact_Study_051812.pdf

Well, I'm also not advocating for outright weapon bans. I have nothing against removing weapons in society. I'm suggesting a medium be set so that it's not cheap and affordable enough for just about anyone on the streets. At least let there be some effort to earn it, not everyone should deserve to use a gun, even if it's their second amendment rights.

The more we debate about it, it seems like a "you can't have your cake and eat it too" situation.


What is that line?
What if all of us who are entitled to, had guns? I think that would make for some serious questions about the state of our society. I would think some people are not fit for a gun, even if their amendment rights allow them for it - provided they are not mental, juvenile, or a felon. Some people just aren't meant to own one for certain reasons outside of legal limitations.


So, that doesn't tell us about cheap gun vs. expensive gun.


I'm afraid we can't go any further on the issue of statistics until there is some public information on the matter. At this point we can only move on with our differences in opinions. We'll just have to argue about other perspectives of this topic.

If you research the topic and find some information that supports your opinions about gun models/manufacturers, I want to see the material that support your perspectives.
 
Looks like there are some stuff out there on my opinion after looking hard enough. Too bad we don't see any information from or on other mfg's.


High Point 9-mm gun is weapon of choice for criminals - NY Daily News
High Point 9-mm gun is weapon of choice for criminals

The illegal handgun used by an ex-con in a firefight that left a transit cop wounded is the weapon of choice among New York City criminals, federal data show.
Juan Calves brandished a High Point 9-mm. when plainclothes Officer Annmarie Marchiondo and her two anti-crime partners yanked him off the No. 4 train in the Bronx on Friday.
The inexpensive pistol tops the lengthy list of guns seized from New York City criminals and traced last year by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
Selling for as little as $250 on the street, the High Point 9-mm. dominated a list packed with cheap firepower.
In all, some 7,059 crime guns from the city were traced last year. Nearly 1,600 came from crimes committed in the Bronx.
Calves' weapon was stolen from a car in Columbus, Ohio, in 2002, authorities said. Roughly 85% of guns used to commit crimes in New York City come from out of state, with Ohio ranking eighth on the list.
Mayor Bloomberg, who has made gun control a primary focus of his second term, filed a civil lawsuit last spring against 15 out-of-state gun dealers found responsible for selling some 500 guns eventually used in crimes across New York City.
Ohio maker of Hi-Point firearms at center of landmark lawsuit | cleveland.com
Ohio maker of Hi-Point firearms at center of landmark lawsuit
An Ohio gun maker and a distributor are targets of what could be a landmark legal case after a New York appeals court this month decided a gunshot victim could sue both for providing criminals with the pistol that wounded him.

Beemiller Inc, the Mansfield-based maker of Hi-Point model guns, along with the company's sole distributor, MKS Supply, have been trying to deflect the suit for seven years -- arguing that federal law protects them from being held responsible for crimes committed with their products.

At the crux of the lawsuit is whether the gun maker and distributor produced and sold cheap guns that they knew would be popular on the criminal market and ignored signs of illegal activity when dealing their wares.

The Ohio-based companies argue that Hi-Points are simply affordable firearms, and that MKS Supply owner Charles Brown was conned into selling a gun trafficker and his accomplices hundreds of guns that ended up on the streets of Buffalo.

Jonathan Lowy, a lawyer for the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, said that trial courts have allowed cases against gun dealers in the past, but this was the first time a case against a manufacturer and distributor has survived appellate scrutiny.

While the case will play out in a New York court, the outcome could have ramifications for Cleveland and other Ohio communities.

Hi-Points have remained for years among the most common guns confiscated by Cleveland police and also comprised the majority of illegally purchased guns in cases federally prosecuted in Northern Ohio.

11762173-large.jpg

Beemiller Inc. Owner Tom Deeb proudly hold a Hi-Point C9 pistol. Deeb said though some say firearms he produces are popular with criminals, he helps law enforcement catch bad guys in ways no other manufacturer does.​


Buffalo teen Daniel Williams and his family with the help of the Washington, D.C.-based Brady Center filed the lawsuit in 2005.

Williams, a high school basketball standout, was mistaken for a gang rival in 2003 and shot while playing basketball in front of a neighbor's house.

He nearly died in his fathers arms, but later recovered.

Police quickly and traced the gun used in the shooting to a sale at an Ohio gun show more than two years earlier.

It was one of 87 guns purchased by an Ohio woman, Kimberly Upshaw. She along with James Nigel Bostic and two other women bought as many as 181 Hi-Points from Brown. His company, MKS Supply, is the sole distributor of the brand.

Bostic told Brown he was planning on opening his own gun shop, according to court filings, though he lacked a federal license to do so and was not likely to obtain one because of past convictions for misdemeanors.

The lawsuit accuses Brown of using his personal federal firearms license to sell large numbers of guns to Bostic's companions, even though Bostic himself picked out the guns and paid for them -- a deal known as a straw purchase.

In such transactions, a person buys a gun for someone who is a convicted felon and cannot legally purchase a firearm or for someone who wants to shield his or her identity from connection to the purchase.

For example, when someone buys a large number of guns at once, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives might flag that transaction as suspicious. To avoid this, a straw buyer would lie on a federal firearms purchase form that he or she is the "actual buyer" of some of the guns.

At least 141 of the Hi-Points that Bostic and two other women bought were later fenced on the streets of Buffalo. A number of them eventually were used in crimes, including the Williams shooting.

Brown has consistently denied that the women were straw purchasers or that there was anything illegal about the gun-show sales.

But Bostic and his two accomplices were federally prosecuted in New York for illegal gun trafficking. The women were sentenced to probation, while Bostic received seven years behind bars. He was released in 2010.

The ATF and federal prosecutors did not bring charges against Brown.

"To prosecute a dealer, you'd have to show they were knowingly making illegal sales, Assistant U.S. Attorney Joel Violanti told the Buffalo News in 2005. "That forces you to look into the mind of the dealer as they were selling the gun. That's a difficult thing to accomplish."

However, the same Buffalo News series included interviews with two of the woman who bought guns. They said it was clear the guns were for Bostic. He selected and paid for them. They just filled out the paperwork.

11768078-large.jpg

The Plain Dealer
The lawsuit against Beemiller and MKS Supply states that both companies should have known that the guns sold to Bostic would end up in the hands of criminals. Bostic and the women had purchased multiple guns on prior occasions, paid for them in cash and selected Hi-Point 9 mm handguns, which are "disproportionately used in crime" and have "no collector value or interest." All are red flags to a seasoned gun dealer, the suit asserts.​

Records show Hi-Points were the firearm of choice in more than 60 percent of straw purchase cases federally prosecuted in the Northern District of Ohio region since 2006.

Hi-Points, which are manufactured in a small plant about 80 miles from Cleveland, also were among the guns most confiscated by Cleveland police in the past five years. Police seized 83 Hi-Points in 2011 and 64 so far this year.

The guns also have been connected to high-profile shootings both nationally and locally.

Eric Harris used one of the maker's 10-round magazine carbines in the 1999 Columbine school shooting. A straw purchased Hi-Point was used the previous year in the slaying of Cleveland vice Detective Robert Clark.

Several Hi-Point models have been banned in Chicago and the state of Massachusetts by consumer protection laws.

According to the lawsuit, the ATF had notified Beemiller and MKS Supply that 13,000 Hi-Points had been used in crimes between 1988 and 2000.

The gun maker and distributor have argued that the federal Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, passed in 2005, shields gun makers from lawsuits over criminal use of their products.

A New York state court agreed and dismissed Williams' complaint in May 2011.

The appellate court, however, reinstated the case this month, ruling that the law exempts from protection those who knowingly violate state or federal laws that govern the sale or marketing of firearms.

Lowy, the Brady Center lawyer, said the gun industry has argued that it is immune from the civil justice system.

"But if you knowingly violate gun laws you clearly don't get that protection," Lowy said. "I'll be very interested to hear their arguments, why it was perfectly legal and reasonable to sell hundreds of guns to gun traffickers," he said.

Brown, of MKS Supply, said in a recent interview that the Brady Center has manipulated the facts to further its anti-gun agenda. He contended that the transactions were not straw purchases -- that Bostic and his companions all passed background checks, filled out the required paperwork and were brought to the ATF's attention.

Brown's Dayton-based attorney, Scott Braum, said the Brady Center used gun trace data "wildly inappropriately" when linking Hi-Points to crime, as not all gun traces are performed in connection to criminal cases. And the center villainized the gun as one designed for criminals with no value to the average gun-owner, he said.

"There is nothing that says people only have the right to buy a $1,000 gun vs. a $300 gun," he said. "And many people don't have that choice if they want a gun to protect their family. Hi-Point is an affordable firearm. And there is absolutely a very large, legal market for an affordable, reliable, accurate firearm in America."

Braum said he and other attorneys on the case are evaluating their options for appeal.

Tom Deeb, whose company has been making Hi-Points since 1988 and now is the 4th largest pistol manufacturer in the country, producing as many as 85,000 a year, said in a recent interview that his heart breaks every time he hears about a crime involving one of his guns. But the Brady Center is misguided in targeting his company, he said. More than any other gun manufacturer in the world, Deeb said, he has shown a commitment to keeping his product out of the hands of criminals -- an effort that has been widely recognized by law enforcement officials.

In 2009, then-Ohio Attorney General Richard Cordray presented Deeb with a Citizens' Service Award for helping forensic laboratories throughout the country send firearms examiners to professional conferences and by offering gun identification training at those events.

The Ohio Bureau of Criminal Identification & Investigation, which nominated Deeb for the award, also praised him for his manufacturing process "specifically designed to aid law enforcement, with the goal of making each of his firearms more easily identifiable."

Among the guns' features are unique rifling in their barrels and extra finishing processes on breech faces that create unique and identifiable striations on spent bullets and shells. Also the guns feature hidden serial numbers that cannot be obliterated by criminals -- making for an easier trace, the nomination form states. The Association of Firearm and Tool Mark Examiners also endorsed Deeb for the award.

Deeb sent a reporter a decade's worth of other commendations and letters of thanks from law enforcement officials and forensic lab technicians in Alabama, Arizona, Illinois, Michigan and West Virginia.

"I'm the most decorated gun manufacturer in the world," Deeb said. "[The lawsuit] is pointing fingers at probably the best guy there is in this business."

Deeb said that because his guns are popular among criminals, he felt that helping identify them more easily was the right thing to do.

"I realize that there are bad aspects of this business," Deeb said. "It bothers me enough that I will make sure that if people use my guns to commit crimes, they are a lot more likely to get caught."

Deeb said that he never met Bostic, but called him a con-artist who managed to convince Brown that his intentions were legal and legitimate.

When told Hi-Points are the guns most commonly involved in straw-purchase cases in Northern Ohio, Deeb said he was proud. "I'm tickled to death," he said. "That makes my chest swell with pride because we caught all those people."

He suggested that straw-purchase cases involving guns from other manufacturers sometimes fall apart because criminals remove the serial numbers, rendering the weapons.

Lori O'Neill, a Northeast Ohio gun violence and trafficking prevention specialist, said that if a long-established, federally licensed gun dealer like Brown cannot be trusted to recognize an obviously illegal purchase of handguns to a straw buyer, the state needs to take action.

The state should limit the number of handguns a person can purchase in a single transaction, she said. And all federally licensed gun dealers and employees should be required to undergo training on recognizing straw purchases, said O'Neill, who has consulted with Cleveland-area law enforcement on gun issues.

"While determined criminals may find a way to get guns," she said. " We don't have to make it so easy for them."
Gun commonly used in crimes among the least expensive on the market | StarTribune.com
Gun commonly used in crimes among the least expensive on the market

The most common semiautomatic handgun seized on the streets of Minneapolis is the Hi-Point C-9, a weapon that’s also one of the nation’s most controversial. Nationally, it has been the gun with the fastest “time-to-crime” of any firearm used by youth ages 18 to 24, according to a 2002 report published by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. The report found that a C-9 used in a crime typically had been purchased one year earlier, a measure of the buyer’s intent when purchasing the firearm.

“They’re cheap and they get passed around,” and they’re easily concealable,” said Kristen Rand of the Violence Policy Center, a Washington, D.C., nonprofit focused on gun violence prevention. “They are just the perfect crime gun.

Hi-Point Firearms, based in Mansfield, Ohio, declined a request for comment from the Star Tribune. Over the years, the company has been lauded by some law enforcement agencies for printing hidden serial numbers and other features that make their products easy to trace.

The guns are distributed by MKS Supply of Dayton, Ohio. The president of MKS, Charles Brown, was the supplier to a straw buyer in a series of purchases made in 2000 and documented by the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence. In that case, Brown sold more than 140 Hi-Point semiautomatic pistols to a gun trafficker and his straw purchaser, court records show. The trafficker eventually went to prison for seven years. Brown was not charged with any crime.

Asked for comment, Brown sent a short e-mail to the Star Tribune saying, “There is much more to this story.” He did not elaborate.

The Brady Center argues that Brown should have known the sales were illegal. They were high-volume purchases of the same make and model, paid for in cash, and used a second person (the trafficker’s girlfriend) to fill out the paperwork in which she said she was the purchaser.
 
Older article from the 90s, not my forte especially considering the time factor (were Hi-Points even popular back then?). Neverless I think the point is still is in effect. Article is contrasting about cheap vs expensive weapons, and it even has LEO statements:

Southland Firms Dominate Market for Small Handguns : Violence: Cheap weapons are favored by criminals and youths. Many are traced to serious crimes. - Los Angeles Times

Southland Firms Dominate Market for Small Handguns : Violence: Cheap weapons are favored by criminals and youths. Many are traced to serious crimes.

Southern California is home to a circle of gun makers who have virtually cornered the market in small handguns by doing it the American way--cheaper. But for thousands of crime victims across America, the products they sell are proving all too costly, a Times study shows.

Tucked away in suburban industrial complexes in and around Los Angeles County, seven arms companies have become colossal players in the market for inexpensive, small-caliber automatics, the sort that have gained favor in America's inner cities.


Priced as low as $25, compared to $300 or more for the higher-quality handguns, the pistols produced by these firms have increasingly become the weapons of choice for criminals, crime-fearing citizens and America's youth, accounting for a disproportionate share of handguns traced in violent crime in the United States.

In 1 out of 5 times that authorities traced a handgun involved in a murder, robbery, assault or drug crime between January, 1991, and May, 1994, the weapon was traced to these companies, according to 300,000 federal firearms records reviewed by The Times.

The companies are Davis Industries, Phoenix Arms, Lorcin Engineering, Bryco Arms, Jennings Firearms, Raven and Sundance Industries.

Officials of the companies declined to discuss the findings. They previously have cited an anti-gun bias in the news media and have said that if more of their guns are involved in crimes and traces, it reflects the high volume of their sales.

Gun industry supporters say that these firearms provide a measure of protection to law-abiding citizens who live in high-crime areas and may not be able to afford more expensive handguns.

All of these companies, records show, are, or were, owned by relatives, former business associates and family friends of George Jennings, a one-time machinist who became a millionaire after founding Raven in 1970.

Even though Raven founder Jennings is retired and does not own or control all these companies, the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms refers to them in official reports as "Jennings Firearms."

In 1992, these companies manufactured roughly 80% of all small-caliber firearms in the United States, eclipsing the production of industry giants such as Colt, Smith & Wesson and Ruger.

And guns made by "Jennings Firearms" companies show up in a disproportionate number of weapons traces after murders, robberies and other violent crimes nationwide, according to a Times computer analysis of 3 1/2 years of ATF records.

The .25-caliber automatic manufactured by Raven has become the handgun most frequently seized and traced by police, while a .38-caliber automatic manufactured by Jennings' son-in-law, Jim Davis of Davis Industries, has become the second most frequently traced handgun, records show.

During the period, guns made by "Jennings Firearms" companies were traced in connection with 2,675 assaults, 3,494 murders, 5,901 narcotics crimes and 1,223 robberies.


A number of company officials did not return calls. One member of the Jennings family said, "We're not about to comment."

But Richard Feldman, executive director of the American Shooting Sports Council, a legislative group that represents firearms manufacturers, wholesalers and retailers, said that if Jennings-related weapons did not exist, criminals would find some other guns to use.

"It's easy to rail against handguns and say that just because they are inexpensive, it's easier for the criminal to get," Feldman said. "But what does someone making $5,000 a week selling cocaine care about how much he pays for a gun?"

Handguns manufactured in a region renowned for making movies and music have been confiscated all across America by authorities investigating serious crimes, according to ATF records.

In Sandusky, Ohio, for example, a Lorcin .380 killed a star athlete from the local high school after a fight broke out at a Halloween party.

In Milwaukee, members of a youth gang took aim at a 21-year-old man sitting on a park bench. One of the weapons: A Lorcin 9-millimeter.

In Tucson, a domestic dispute erupted, escalated, and guns were fired. The victim: a 27-year-old woman. The weapon: a Sundance .25. Also found at the scene: A Lorcin .25.

Just last weekend, two rival gangs converged on a Salt Lake City home where some gang members were having a party. One member of another gang fired a Lorcin .380, killing an 18-year-old youth.

"I'd say that 99% of our homicide shootings in Salt Lake City are Lorcins, Ravens and Jennings guns," said police detective Jim Alcock.

The list of locales goes on: Washington. Chicago. Huntsville, Tex.

A Times review of ATF data shows:

* Since 1990, such firearms have dominated the list of handguns most frequently found at crime scenes around the nation and traced. So far this year, 6 of the 10 most frequently traced handguns in the United States were made by "Jennings Firearms" companies. The top four are Lorcin L-380, Davis P-380, Raven MP-25 and Lorcin L-25. The sixth most often traced is the Jennings J-22, and the ninth is the Phoenix-Raven.

* Of 242,106 handguns seized from crime scenes nationwide in the past 3 1/2 years and traced, 50,936, or 20%, were manufactured by these companies. By comparison, the nation's No.1 gun manufacturer, Smith & Wesson, which has been making guns for more than a century, made 31,521 of the guns seized and traced during the same time period.


"These guys don't manufacture anywhere near the number Smith & Wesson does," said the ATF's John D'Angelo, "and yet it's their guns that show up in the traces.

* On more than 1,600 occasions, police seized and initiated a trace on a gun made by "Jennings Firearms" companies on the same day it was purchased. Authorities said this would indicate that the gun may have been used in a crime that very day. By comparison, this happened 1,041 times with Smith & Wesson guns.


* Though "Jennings Firearms" guns are manufactured here in Southern California, authorities in New York, Virginia, Michigan, Texas, Georgia, Illinois and Washington, D.C., requested traces of them more often than other states did.

"Cheap, 'Saturday night specials' are among the top 10 trace requests we get, and they are the ones from these companies," said Tom Hill, a Washington-based spokesman for the ATF. "What we need to figure out is why do the guns these companies manufacture end up in the hands of criminals."

A handful of states have outlawed several models made by "Jennings Firearms" companies as threats to public safety. Authorities say some of them could not be legally imported into the U.S. if they were made abroad because they would not meet standards for imported weapons.

Garen Wintemute, an emergency room physician and the head of UC Davis's Violence Prevention Research Program, is author of a report to be released today on Southern California firearms manufacturers. The report says that guns made by "Jennings Firearms" companies are 3.4 times more likely to be used in crimes than are Colt, Smith & Wesson and Ruger handguns.

"They can be distinguished by their disproportionate use in crime," he said in interview.

ATF statistics indicate that nearly 3,500 handguns made by "Jennings Firearms" companies were traced in connection with murders between 1991 and May, 1994.

*

One of them took the life of Derrick Dickey.

Last Oct. 30, in Sandusky, Ohio, a town of 30,000 on the banks of Lake Erie, an 18-year-old youth shot a popular, 17-year-old high school basketball player in the chest, killing him instantly with a .380-caliber Lorcin. Dickey had a .25-caliber Lorcin handgun in his back pocket. Police said he never reached for the unloaded weapon.

Dickey's gun was traced to Jack's Jewelers in Columbus, Ga. The dealer had purchased the gun in May, 1990, but when Moehling called the shop, it was out of business.

The gun Dickey's alleged assailant used came from Norcol Gun Shop in Columbus, Ohio, and was purchased by a Sandusky youth in April, 1993, six months before the shooting. The youth told police the gun had been stolen.


"Used to be that we'd get a murder here every two or three years," said Det. Curt Moehling, who investigated the Dickey death. "Now it's four or five a year. And 80% are coming from the Lorcins, the Ravens and the Jennings guns."

In Milwaukee, Jonathan Simmons, 21, was just beginning to turn his life around this summer when four members of the Black Gangster Disciples spotted him sitting on the step of a vacant corner store.

Simmons tried to run, but the four gang members fired 32 times, hitting him eight times. He had bullet wounds to his chest, thigh, leg, forearm, abdomen, calf and knee. He died at the scene on a warm summer day across the street from a playground.

Only one weapon--a 9-millimeter Lorcin pistol--was found at at the scene, although casings were found from another 9-millimeter pistol and a .40-caliber handgun.

One 16-year Milwaukee police veteran who has spent the past five years investigating homicides said the Davis, Raven and Lorcin guns pop up often in murders.

*

The "Jennings Firearms" companies date back to 1970 when George Jennings founded Raven, records show. Eight years later, his son, Bruce, formed Jennings Firearms, which in 1985 became Calwestco and in 1990 became Bryco.

In 1982, George Jennings' son-in-law, Jim Davis, started Davis Industries, making mostly .25-caliber pistols at first.

Then, in 1989, an associate of Bruce Jennings, Jim Waldorf, established Lorcin. That same year, George Jennings' nephew, Steve, formed Sundance Industries.

In 1991, the company that started it all, Raven, was seriously damaged by fire, and that led to the establishment of Phoenix Arms.

According to ATF figures for 1992, the latest year for which manufacturing statistics are available, the five active "Jennings Firearms" companies--Lorcin, Davis, Phoenix, Bryco and Sundance--produced 541,489 handguns of .25-, .32- and .380-caliber. That represents 81% of all such small-caliber handguns manufactured in the United States.

Times staff writer Dan Weikel, director of computer analysis Richard O'Reilly and data analyst Sandy Poindexter contributed to this article.

Tracing Firearms

Inexpensive, small-caliber handguns manufactured in Southern California can be traced to thousands of violent crimes nationwide. In crimes committed from January, 1991, to May, 1994, in which police asked the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms to trace ownership of weapons, the following handguns were most often involved. Models listed with an asterisk (*) were made by Jennings-related gun companies, which dominate the small-caliber market.


Murders:

Gun type: Raven MP25*

Guns traced: 888

Gun type: Davis P-380*

Guns traced: 632

Gun type: SWD M11/9

Guns traced: 470

Gun type: Intratec Tec 9

Guns traced: 414

Gun type: Stallard/Maverick JS9

Guns traced: 403

*

Narcotics:

Gun type: Raven MP25*

Guns traced: 1,488

Gun type: Davis P-380*

Guns traced: 1,210

Gun type: SWD M11/9

Guns traced: 817

Gun type: Intratec Tec 9

Guns traced: 808

Gun type: Stallard/Maverick JS9

Guns traced: 785

*

Assaults:

Gun type: Raven MP25*

Guns traced: 601

Gun type: Davis P-380*


Guns traced: 496

Gun type: Intratec Tec 9

Guns traced: 274

Gun type: Stallard/Maverick JS9

Guns traced: 269

Gun type: Jennings J-22*

Guns traced: 262

*

Robberies:

Gun type: Raven MP25*

Guns traced: 287

Gun type: Davis P-380*

Guns traced: 260

Gun type: Stallard/Maverick JS9

Guns traced: 150

Gun type: Lorcin L-380*

Guns traced: 138

Gun type: Intratec Tec 9

Guns traced: 134

Source: Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
 
For criminals guns are a commodity like gas is. It's something they need for the business they are in. And just like most people want the cheapest gas criminals want the cheapest guns. If you raise the price they may not like it but i doubt they'll stop buying.

Criminals don't use ferraris to rob banks so maybe only people that can afford supercars should be allowed to drive.

Although i shouldn't use these car tobacco and boose analogies. They are not rights under the constitution and that is the real problem. When you make guns to expensive for some you are removing their ability to exercise their constitutional right. A better compairison would be to ask why we don't charge $1 a word tax for freedom of speech as words are powerful and we want to keep them out of the mouths of criminals.
 
However, the liklihood of a person becoming injured or dead from a gun in a crime is driven by weapon availability, wether illicit or legal. The only way (in the scope of this topic) I can think of to propose to reduce unnecessary deaths is to reduce supply. I think some criminals would move on to simpler weapons like sharp or blunts, resulting in less people dead. There might be less of a differentiation between gun models of criminals, but that's only because there's less available, just based on the general principles.
There's where we differ. I blame the criminal's nature for the violence that takes place, not an inanimate weapon. Unless the criminal's internal nature changes, the crime and violence will go on. The criminal will find guns regardless of the cost.


Law of economics. When gas prices rose, less people drove. More people walked or took public transportation, so on. ^ source:
http://www.prac.com/public/Plymouthrock/staticfiles/PDF/MA_Gas_Impact_Study_051812.pdf
Another not-so-good analogy. People who could perhaps car pooled, took the bus, stayed home, etc. Many people didn't have those alternatives available, so they paid more for the same amount of gas and made their budget cuts elsewhere. Criminals are that bunch of people. Criminals won't think, "Hmm, the price of guns has gone up so I'll quit committing crimes with guns." Criminals will think, "Hmm, the price of guns has gone up; I'll not only commit crimes with guns, I'll try to steal more of them and make a neat profit on the street."

Well, I'm also not advocating for outright weapon bans. I have nothing against removing weapons in society. I'm suggesting a medium be set so that it's not cheap and affordable enough for just about anyone on the streets.
Are you advocating the Federal government establish price controls in order to regulate Americans' exercise of a Constitutional right? That reminds me of the poll taxes that were (wrongly) used by Southern states to prohibit black Americans from casting their votes.

At least let there be some effort to earn it, not everyone should deserve to use a gun, even if it's their second amendment rights.
Whoa! A right is just that--it's a right, not a privilege that has to be earned. Would you say the same thing about the other amendments of the Bill of Rights? Would you say that Americans have to earn the privilege of freedom of speech or religion?

The more we debate about it, it seems like a "you can't have your cake and eat it too" situation.
Mmmm . . . cake! :giggle:

What if all of us who are entitled to, had guns?
The bad guys might think twice (or three times) before trying to attack us. :)

I think that would make for some serious questions about the state of our society. I would think some people are not fit for a gun, even if their amendment rights allow them for it - provided they are not mental, juvenile, or a felon. Some people just aren't meant to own one for certain reasons outside of legal limitations.
Probably but who is to make that judgment? I certainly wouldn't make that judgment based on income. There are plenty of well-to-do people who don't make able gun owners.

I'm afraid we can't go any further on the issue of statistics until there is some public information on the matter. At this point we can only move on with our differences in opinions. We'll just have to argue about other perspectives of this topic.
I agree that statistics would certainly be helpful. Otherwise, it's just conjecture. Until then, we can agree to disagree (as long as you don't try to change our Bill of Rights).

If you research the topic and find some information that supports your opinions about gun models/manufacturers, I want to see the material that support your perspectives.
I don't have the time to do that but I'll mention it to TCS. He keeps up on the gun stuff more than I do.
 
what is it so essetional about low or high quality? guns are guns.


The question is more about price. Criminals tend to use cheap guns because they don't care about quality and want what ever is cheapest. So some people have suggested eliminating cheap guns thinking that it would reduce the amount of firearms available to criminals.

The problem is that criminals will just move on to the next available firearm but more importantly it would make a constitutional right impossible to exercise for people who don't have enough money.
 
The question is more about price. Criminals tend to use cheap guns because they don't care about quality and want what ever is cheapest. So some people have suggested eliminating cheap guns thinking that it would reduce the amount of firearms available to criminals.

The problem is that criminals will just move on to the next available firearm but more importantly it would make a constitutional right impossible to exercise for people who don't have enough money.

but black market still exists. no different
 
but black market still exists. no different

I don't disagree. I don't see it really affecting criminals that much if at all. Typically that's the problem with gun laws. They only affect law abiding people by definition.
 
There's a lot of crappy guns that firearms owners shouldn't have to deal with. However despite what the news would lead people to believe, many guns are stolen - from police and civilians and many are good quality guns. That said, while I'm no fan of Taurus (Beretta knock off as I call them) or Bersa, or any of these other not so great firearms, they have a right to sell just as much as Glock S&W, H&K or anyone else. You don't like it, you don't need to buy it, yes? As for the prices, they're already high enough. It makes more sense to raise the price of fast foods and sodas IMO. Law abiding gun owners, of which I'm one, aren't involved in criminal acts and I shouldn't be punished for what some wack job does. It makes more sense to increase the jail time for offenders using guns during a crime - regardless of age.

Laura
 
The question is more about price. Criminals tend to use cheap guns because they don't care about quality and want what ever is cheapest. So some people have suggested eliminating cheap guns thinking that it would reduce the amount of firearms available to criminals.

The problem is that criminals will just move on to the next available firearm but more importantly it would make a constitutional right impossible to exercise for people who don't have enough money.

This is so not true about the criminal mind set. Those who break laws use cheap guns because they intend to throw it away so it can't be tied to them if this comes back to bite them in the behind. It's rare to see a punk toss an H&K, Beretta, or Sig - those they hide well. A cheap gun they have no problem with tossing and they cover themselves (they think). Smarter criminals use revolvers - or pick up the brass from the semi autos so police have nothing to go on but the bullet in the body.
 
For criminals guns are a commodity like gas is. It's something they need for the business they are in. And just like most people want the cheapest gas criminals want the cheapest guns. If you raise the price they may not like it but i doubt they'll stop buying.

Criminals don't use ferraris to rob banks so maybe only people that can afford supercars should be allowed to drive.

Although i shouldn't use these car tobacco and boose analogies. They are not rights under the constitution and that is the real problem. When you make guns to expensive for some you are removing their ability to exercise their constitutional right. A better compairison would be to ask why we don't charge $1 a word tax for freedom of speech as words are powerful and we want to keep them out of the mouths of criminals.

I can agree that they will move onto something else if one gun is no longer easy to get. But if all cheaper guns are no longer easy to get, I think that's when we can start seeing less lives taken away from people being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Raising prices of cheap guns don't violate the constitution, it's not like the weapons have became banned - they can still be sold. I can see it making it harder since prices increasing the amount of time it takes a poorer person to get one, so they can't just get it after one paycheck. They would have to save up for a month or more depending on the amount they earn.

Also then the thing about death by cars vs crime/death by guns is a misnomer though. Deaths caused by vehicles are are almost always involuntary while more deaths caused by guns were done voluntarily.

While I understand the importance of 2a, it's not like the constitution is perfectly written for everything. If you want to get into semantics, look at 6a. It's is still a little broken when we're supposed to get fair trials, but when the defendant is represented by a court appointed counsel becomes more likely to be convicted than someone who can afford private practice. Probably just increased their chances of getting convicted by 20-30% with a court appointed defender.
 
This is so not true about the criminal mind set. Those who break laws use cheap guns because they intend to throw it away so it can't be tied to them if this comes back to bite them in the behind. It's rare to see a punk toss an H&K, Beretta, or Sig - those they hide well. A cheap gun they have no problem with tossing and they cover themselves (they think). Smarter criminals use revolvers - or pick up the brass from the semi autos so police have nothing to go on but the bullet in the body.

That's the benefit throw aways (guns) so people don't get traced. I'd reckon they're cheap ones which could have less records on them or passed around many hands in a short time. Ser # obliterated, shoot them and toss them when done.
 
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