residential vs. mainstream

Your argument on that an exam is required for deaf/hoh students to take if they wan to enroll in MAINSTREAM PUBLIC school is not only discrimination and segregation in nature but also undermines the potential many talented deaf/hoh students. What if they can not pass the hypothetical exam you came up with? Your only solution left is to throw them back to the schools for deaf and dumb.. I hope that is not the point you are trying to conclude.

Also speaking from personal experience, I have never met a single deaf/hoh student who went to deaf schools in my college (I went to a 4 year, top-tier public university in California). All of the deaf students from my college signs and some are able to speak fairly well, we all agree that the materials taught in deaf school are too easy. Remember, it is your schooling is not suppose to influence your education.
Click to expand...
Kalboy, you are missing my point.....I think an exam should be required just to ensure that the deaf/hoh student has a good solid base in order to work from.
Most of the kids who go to deaf schools, have been prevoiusly mainstreamed where they didn't get the specialized teaching that they needed in order to get a really good education. Most deaf/hoh students are mainstreamed nowadays. Very few spend their entire scholastic career at a deaf school!
I have a lot more to say but I have to get something to eat and go to class.
 
deafdyke said:
Kalboy, you are missing my point.....I think an exam should be required just to ensure that the deaf/hoh student has a good solid base in order to work from.
Most of the kids who go to deaf schools, have been prevoiusly mainstreamed where they didn't get the specialized teaching that they needed in order to get a really good education. Most deaf/hoh students are mainstreamed nowadays. Very few spend their entire scholastic career at a deaf school!
I have a lot more to say but I have to get something to eat and go to class.
Click to expand...


I would like to hear your perspective on the lack of standardized exams such as SAT/ACT in deaf school.
 
The Heretic, You obvoiusly have not read all of my posts here. I think mainstreaming is awesome...I just don't like the automatic assumption that all deaf students should automaticly attend their neighborhood school, starting in preschool. I do not believe that the gross majority of mainstream schools have the resources to provide appropreate early intervention for most deaf/hoh students. Some do...I do support regional educational co-opts with qualified TODs at mainstream schools.
Also speaking from personal experience, I have never met a single deaf/hoh student who went to deaf schools in my college (I went to a 4 year, top-tier public university in California). All of the deaf students from my college signs and some are able to speak fairly well, we all agree that the materials taught in deaf school are too easy. Remember, it is your schooling is not suppose to influence your education.
Click to expand...
If you have never gone to deaf school, then how do you know that deaf school is too easy?
I'm not surprised, that you never met an alumni of a deaf school at your college, since it's top tier. Most students who go to top-tier schools, have strong parental involvement. Talk to some of the teachers at the deaf school. They'll tell you that most of the parents there are really uninvolved with their child's education. (actually this is true across the board for most kids with IEPs from what I've heard)
I think deaf schools should require SATs, and deaf colleges (like Gally and NTID) should require them for admission. On the other hand...there are very selective colleges which don't require SATS. (Mt. Holyoke I think)
 
deafdyke said:
The Heretic, You obvoiusly have not read all of my posts here. I think mainstreaming is awesome...I just don't like the automatic assumption that all deaf students should automaticly attend their neighborhood school, starting in preschool. I do not believe that the gross majority of mainstream schools have the resources to provide appropreate early intervention for most deaf/hoh students. Some do...I do support regional educational co-opts with qualified TODs at mainstream schools.
Click to expand...

I'm with you. Apologies on not reading your other posts, but i was reacting more towards what seemed to be a ganging-up on Kalboy. Since i smelled a potential witch hunt in the offing, I took you at face value and addressed what you wrote in that post alone.

I'm against the one-size-fits all approach too, because public education of any type is geared towards the lowest common denominator, the mediocre. That also applies for any residental education as well - their standards have to accomodate the aptitute level of the students, and that seems to guarantee substandard, worse than mediocre results. A self-fulfilling prophechy.

Do you have any criticism to offer on the part of residental education, or do you think that it is good enough and needs no reform?
 
Do you have any criticism to offer on the part of residental education, or do you think that it is good enough and needs no reform?
Click to expand...
It definitly needs reform. There are good schools (TLC, MSSD, the California Schools for the Deaf) but there are also really bad schools, that are basicly just babysitting services. Then again, you can say the same for a lot of hearing schools. There are decent hearing schools, and there are awful hearing schools.
(inner city high schools anyone?) Not all res schools are horrible/low quality.
I think maybe a good idea would be to funnel more money into res education.
Yes, I know res education is already quite expensive and some people insist that it sucks away too much money already, but on the other hand, I think about the only reason why it's expensive is b/c of things like dorms and having to buy specialized equipment in bulk. Maybe a way to offset the high costs of residental schools, would be to offer a sleepaway summer camp for deaf/hoh and Deaf hearing kids.
Another might be to open audilogy services to the community at large.
Anyway, I think part of the reason why education is so crappy at res schools is b/c teachers are so bad. Most TODs are attracted to the private oral schools....
I have a lot more to say but I'm being kicked off the computer!
 
OK....I'm back! To finish my post: Raise teacher saleries so that really talented and qualified TODs will be attracted to jobs at the schools.....put into place a strong rigerous curriculum that is as good as which is found at a hearing school, encourage parental involvement...report to CPS ANY parent who is not involved with their child's education (far far far too many hearing parents don't sign with their deaf/hoh kid(s). encourage the local Deaf community to be involved in the deaf school.... Also increase vocational ed. Train deaf/hoh students with useful, high skill trades that are in demand. Not all deaf/hoh kids want to go to college. (and although I love college, I do sometimes feel like an educated idoit with no real marketable skills beyond being brainy) I don't think that a res school should be the only option, but it should be part of a continum of educational placements.
 
deafdyke said:
OK....I'm back! To finish my post: Raise teacher saleries so that really talented and qualified TODs will be attracted to jobs at the schools.....put into place a strong rigerous curriculum that is as good as which is found at a hearing school, encourage parental involvement...report to CPS ANY parent who is not involved with their child's education (far far far too many hearing parents don't sign with their deaf/hoh kid(s). encourage the local Deaf community to be involved in the deaf school.... Also increase vocational ed. Train deaf/hoh students with useful, high skill trades that are in demand. Not all deaf/hoh kids want to go to college. (and although I love college, I do sometimes feel like an educated idoit with no real marketable skills beyond being brainy) I don't think that a res school should be the only option, but it should be part of a continum of educational placements.
Click to expand...


You're too funny! What will you do with all the parents whose kids are in oral programs? Do a mass list call to protective services?

I agree w/you for the most part, you're acknowledging that the problem is the quality of services across the continuum, not any one approach.
 
[ Most students who go to top-tier schools, have strong parental involvement. Talk to some of the teachers at the deaf school. They'll tell you that most of the parents there are really uninvolved with their child's education. (actually this is true across the board for most kids with IEPs from what I've heard)
I think deaf schools should require SATs, and deaf colleges (like Gally and NTID) should require them for admission. On the other hand...there are very selective colleges which don't require SATS. (Mt. Holyoke I think)[/QUOTE]


<this is true across the board for most kids with IEPs from what I've heard>

What you've <heard> is wrong
I agree w/you that parental involvement makes all the difference in a child meeting their potential. Your assumption that most parents are uninvolved is incorrect. While there are many parents who are uninvolved, there are many of us who are the ones out there forcing changes in the educational system. Parents of deaf students are some of the MOST involved parents I've ever met. Think about it, we have to learn a whole new language, and there's a lot of us out there doing it. Not just going to school w/nothing else to do in our lives...We're out there keeping our family going, taking on all the responsibilities of any parent and going back to school at the same time. And God knows, learning all the technology information, networking, learning special ed law better than the special ed directors, fighting for qualified interpreters, qualified teachers, maintaining our cool in the face of being attacked or condescended by people who really don't know what they're talking about, consoling our children when they're feeling excluded or treated rudely. And knowing our children, their personality, their best learning style... I'm not picking on you, you just happened to be number 5,678,900 I've heard say this, and well, this time I responded...
 
deafdyke said:
Train deaf/hoh students with useful, high skill trades that are in demand. Not all deaf/hoh kids want to go to college. (and although I love college, I do sometimes feel like an educated idoit with no real marketable skills beyond being brainy) I don't think that a res school should be the only option, but it should be part of a continum of educational placements.
Click to expand...
:crazy:

I disagree. The requirement of a good college education in a contented existence is must. Your solution is backward thinking; skilled trades are no longer in demand as it were in the pre-war period. A few demanding profession I can think of are nursing, construction, and automobile mechanics, but their reward are nowhere up to par as some of the white collar jobs that require eal college education. Therefore, I think deaf schools are obligated to encourage deaf students to go to college; the least they can do is to make them realize the importance of a college education.
 
I feel that you should emphasize to the child how important education is and then let the child decide themselves whether they want deaf residential school or mainstreamed. From personal experience, I am mainstreamed, finishing up my SENIOR YEAR! (yay lol) My sister who is also deaf just started freshman year at a residential school.
 
While there are many parents who are uninvolved, there are many of us who are the ones out there forcing changes in the educational system. Parents of deaf students are some of the MOST involved parents I've ever met.
Click to expand...
I'm not denying that there are involved parents with Deaf kids, but it does seem like they are in the minority. I do know many involved hearing parents of Deaf kids, but at the same time, there are also many hearing parents of Deaf kids who don't even Sign with their kids! (and quite frankly I think a big part of the reason why, is b/c the hearing parents are burnt out from the extremely heavy involvement that the oral-only method demands. Sadly even today, most kids who Sign, are "oral failures" Very few parents CHOOSE to sign :( ) It seems like most of the really involved parents are the AG Bell stereotype. (that could be b/c most
Your solution is backward thinking; skilled trades are no longer in demand as it were in the pre-war period. A few demanding profession I can think of are nursing, construction, and automobile mechanics, but their reward are nowhere up to par as some of the white collar jobs that require eal college education. Therefore, I think deaf schools are obligated to encourage deaf students to go to college;
Click to expand...
Kalboy.....I do NOT advocate throwing out the educational part of res school. I just think that there should also be a vocational component for those students who don't want to go to college, to equip them with in-demand marketable skills! Too many kids, even hearing kids who attend mainstream academic schools graduate with absolutly no marketable job skills.
 
deafdyke said:
I'm not denying that there are involved parents with Deaf kids, but it does seem like they are in the minority. I do know many involved hearing parents of Deaf kids, but at the same time, there are also many hearing parents of Deaf kids who don't even Sign with their kids! (and quite frankly I think a big part of the reason why, is b/c the hearing parents are burnt out from the extremely heavy involvement that the oral-only method demands. Sadly even today, most kids who Sign, are "oral failures" Very few parents CHOOSE to sign :( ) It seems like most of the really involved parents are the AG Bell stereotype. (that could be b/c most

Kalboy.....I do NOT advocate throwing out the educational part of res school. I just think that there should also be a vocational component for those students who don't want to go to college, to equip them with in-demand marketable skills! Too many kids, even hearing kids who attend mainstream academic schools graduate with absolutly no marketable job skills.
Click to expand...


Thank you, thank you for acknowledging there are involved parents. I don't know about oral vs. signing parents. I can say that I'm a hearing parent who signs w/my son. I personally agree that all deaf children should learn sign language, but even the d/Deaf adults don't agree on that, so....
My son goes to a school for the deaf as a day student, and there are many involved parents there. So much depends on the quality of the program. My son was in a regional deaf ed program prior to the deaf school, and the quality of the program was poor. You have to look at all factors. You've made good points.

Just one more point, then I'll shut up. What's wrong w/deaf students learning trades? I'm in total agreement w/you. Not all students are college material. Does that make them less of a person? I hate that way of thinking. Of course the point is that we should be educating students to reach their own potential, no argument there. But once we've done our job, we need to not judge everyone by how high their academic learning has taken them. All people matter, and all jobs are important.
 
Last edited:
That is great that your son's doing so well and that you think that the education at the deaf school is so good! Where does he go to school? That's also awesome that there are many hearing parents at your son's school who have taken the effort to learn Sign!!! :) Before getting into the whole deaf culture thing, I thought that all hearing parents of Deaf kids learned ASL. It was a HUGE shock to me to find out that only a very small percentage of hearing parents are fluent in ASL (two of the Deaf girls I know in my area , their parents chose ASL and their families are fluent in it!) I am extremely proud to announce that three of my friends have chosen to Sign with their hard of hearing kids! :) Things may be changing!
I personally agree that all deaf children should learn sign language, but even the d/Deaf adults don't agree on that, so....
Click to expand...
Well, I do know off the top of my head that most oral deaf kids pick up ASL as a second language. I have more to say but I gotta run.....
 
The old debate.....Personally I think that deaf and hoh kids should be raised with BOTH ASL and English. I am not one of those radicals who is totally completely anti-hearing world. Oral training is a good thing.....I'm wicked glad that I can hear and speak relatively well. That said, my hearing and my speech will never ever be as good as a hearing persons! Oral training is a very useful skill and should be encouraged and nurtured. However, concentrating exclusively on oral training ifor a deaf/hoh person would be like a mainstream school, being presented with a student who is good in English but bad in math, ignoring the fact that the student is good at English and exclusively concentrating on the fact that they are bad at math.
About the only reason why being raised with an ASL and English approach doesn't work is b/c according to oralists "ASL is a crutch" (hearing people don't use ASL and the goal of oral education is to make deaf/hoh folks more like hearing folks then like deaf folks....b/c ASL is speshal needs and that's not "normal!")
If ASL is a "crutch" then how come speechreading isn''t a "crutch"?...how come Cued Speech isn't a "crutch"? How come hearing aids/CI/FM devices aren't "crutches"? Why is being able to understand 100% of what someone says a "crutch?" Why is being fluent in TWO languages a "crutch?"
There's also the fact that so many kids raised orally resent their parents for never learning ASL/Sign! A lot of them feel that their parents never truely accepted them for who they actually ARE! (a whole visual/Seeing person rather then a "hearing impaired" person who needs to be "fixed" and brought into the "healthy normal hearing" world to rescue them from the "horrible" Deaf ghetto!) Raising a deaf/hoh child with a bilingal approach helps put the choice of how to commuicate into the hands of the deaf/hoh child, and helps end that resentment! I pray someday that NO deaf/hoh child will EVER have to ask their parents why they never learned Sign!
Yes, peacetrain....there is nothing wrong with going to work right after graduating high school. It's just that Americans with their obsession with high acheiving status symbolism equate going to college with a high powered, high paying job! You're nothing today in the suburbs if you don't get into Harvard, or Princeton or a real high status school.
 
Well, I respect all lines of work. What would the academicians sp? do w/o good mechanics when their car breaks down, a plumber when their toilet's overflowing, and who would deliver our mail if we were all working on our post-graduate studies. I know that when it comes to deaf education, what people mean is that deaf students should not be underestimated because of their being deaf. But in the process, I think we overlook the fact that it's really okay if, when given all the tools to become your personal best, you choose or are most adept at a trade or non-college type job. I think the fact that we put so much emphasis on having power, money, and a trail of degrees behind our name is not necessarily a sign that we are more enlightened as a society.
BTW - I liked what you said about education, I think along the same lines
 
Lantana, i'm curious......did you retire recently? Can you tell us how things (educationally speaking) changed at the res schools from when you first started, to when you retired? In more recent years did you get a lot of transfers from the mainstream who hadn't been properly served in regular schools? Personally, I think a "split placement" would work well for a lot of kids. Split placement would be going to a deaf school part time, and then going to a hearing school, and getting the BEST of BOTH worlds!
because public education of any type is geared towards the lowest common denominator, the mediocre.
Click to expand...
precisely..I was NOT at all, average in ANY of my subjects. No wonder I was so unhappy and underserved at school.
One of the worst things I experianced at school, was the attitude from teachers that I wasn't going to be able to achieve anything b/c I was an IEP kid.
(I'm gifted AND LD AND physically disabled....I was reading an article about gifted LD/disabled kids and I fit the desciption to a T!)
 
Mainstream is better for education but residential is better for socializing. My parents put me in mainstream schools but had very few hearing friends. I was lucky that the schools that I went to had other deafies.
 
Back
Top