My friend is convinced ASL isn't a language and there is no such thing as...

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Music_Life

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Deaf Culture.


My friend is a very logical person, in debate and always has to be right. We're both hearing but I don't really know how that matters here.


We've had this on-going debate over if ASL is a real language and if there is such a thing as 'Deaf Culture' I have many supportive points and he's still convinced that its just 'a branch of english' and ' its not a culture, its a group of people' (Which is just lame, I'm big on Anthropology, the study of cultures, and he doesn't know much about that)

Any help on how I can convince him he's wrong, or at least to come to a half way point where we are both satisfied?

Thanks :ty:
 
Take your friend Gallaudet University and he will get a good dose of Deaf culture!

Your friend is wrong and u are right and that is coming from someone who is involved with the Deaf community, Deaf culture and uses ASL daily. I have studied ASL and English linguistics during graduate school and trust me both languages couldnt be more different as far as syntax goes.

I swear..some hearing people need to get their facts straight before forming an opinion.

William Stokes, a reowned linguistist, proved that ASL is a language of its own.
William C. Stokoe, Jr. -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia
 
American Sign Language


This is a link to a government website that will explain to you that ASL is indeed a language.

Pretty much all you want to know is in the link.
 
I've sent him many links, and professional opinions on the matter but none of it works.


His only leg to stand on is Black's Law, its a dictionary used by lawyers, and according to him it says that ASL is just a branch of English and I've sent him so many links and even printed it out and he's still digging himself in deeper.

And just today is when he brought up the Deaf Culture, and I told my mom and even she got mad!

Lots of people have been in on this and they've easily given up because they think they'll lose against him, but we're both stubborn, ha ha
 
If you are all a group of hearing people, why do you care. Especially to come to the point of anger?
 
shel90 said:
Take your friend Gallaudet University and he will get a good dose of Deaf culture!
Click to expand...

I've used that one time with my boyfriend, but it was on a much smaller scale.

He was always telling me I was 'wimping out' because I chose to take ASl as a foreign language and one day, he was invited with me to my friends birthday party, with about 20 other people.

My friend, her mom, her sister, our deaf friend and her sister, my friends boyfriend, and our other friend, and I all signed. And he didn't know anyone else but me, and he was so confused!

I wouldn't talk when I signed and neither would anyone else and he was like, " OKAY I GET IT, ITS NOT A FAKE LANGUAGE, IT WORKS PLEASE TALK TO ME!"

It was really funny.
 
Bottesini said:
If you are all a group of hearing people, why do you care. Especially to come to the point of anger?
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Well that was my mom, I'm not angry with him, I just want him to see my side, the correct side... and I always love a good debate.
 
Never waste your time arguing with idiots. They'll only drag you down to their level.

He may rely a lot on logic but it depends on if you consider it logic or if it's just his own twisted version of such.
 
BradB08 said:
Never waste your time arguing with idiots. They'll only drag you down to their level.

He may rely a lot on logic but it depends on if you consider it logic or if it's just his own twisted version of such.
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He's not an idiot, he's very VERY smart, and its a good debate, its not like we're yelling and being rude to each other, its just a debate, when we're around each other, we don't even talk about it unless something comes about.

I was just looking for perspective from people who have been around this longer than I have, not to stir anything up, I'm just asking opinions on how I can convince him, or even things to help me understand it better cause I'm very new to ASL and everything else about it, I've only been signing for a little over a year.
 
Music_Life said:
Deaf Culture.


My friend is a very logical person, in debate and always has to be right. We're both hearing but I don't really know how that matters here.
Click to expand...

It is illogical to except oneself to always be right.

We've had this on-going debate over if ASL is a real language and if there is such a thing as 'Deaf Culture' I have many supportive points and he's still convinced that its just 'a branch of english' and ' its not a culture, its a group of people' (Which is just lame, I'm big on Anthropology, the study of cultures, and he doesn't know much about that)
Click to expand...

Then he doesn't know about ASL's origins in French Sign Language with additions from other signed languages. What does he think of other signed languages used in English speaking countries like BSL and Auslan?

Any help on how I can convince him he's wrong, or at least to come to a half way point where we are both satisfied?

Thanks :ty:
Click to expand...

You mentioned that he got this idea from Black's dictionary. Which edition is he using? I looked up the publishing years for its editions.

1st: 1891
2nd: 1910
3rd: 1933
4th: 1951
5th: 1979
6th: 1990
7th: 1999
8th: 2004

2nd pocket: 2001
3rd pocket: 2006

If he's using an old edition, it's outdated. Or he's confusing ASL with SEE. I saw two videos somewhere by someone who signed the same thing in SEE and ASL, with the SEE version being longer.

Who wrote the dictionary? Were they knowledgeable about Deaf related topics? Being an expert in legal issues doesn't make you an expert in Deaf ones. I wonder exactly what it said in the dictionary. I could look it up the next time I go to the library.

As for Deaf culture, what does he think of all of those Deaf schools, Deaf clubs, Deaf organizations and books about Deaf culture? He could get in trouble with the Militant Deaf if he told them what he told you.
 
Then tell him why do many hearing universities recognize ASL as a language and even provide credit language course for it at their universities also.

Remember that ASL is a very visual language, not a spoken language in case he might not realize that.

It doesn't matter how he thinks. ASL rolls on no matter what, however.
 
Maybe idiot was too harsh, but why waste your time trying to convince someone who has obviously made up their mind on this issue?
 
Music_Life said:
I've used that one time with my boyfriend, but it was on a much smaller scale.

He was always telling me I was 'wimping out' because I chose to take ASl as a foreign language and one day, he was invited with me to my friends birthday party, with about 20 other people.

My friend, her mom, her sister, our deaf friend and her sister, my friends boyfriend, and our other friend, and I all signed. And he didn't know anyone else but me, and he was so confused!

I wouldn't talk when I signed and neither would anyone else and he was like, " OKAY I GET IT, ITS NOT A FAKE LANGUAGE, IT WORKS PLEASE TALK TO ME!"

It was really funny.
Click to expand...

For that, I give u :cheers:
 
RedFox said:
It is illogical to except oneself to always be right.



Then he doesn't know about ASL's origins in French Sign Language with additions from other signed languages. What does he think of other signed languages used in English speaking countries like BSL and Auslan?
Click to expand...

He knows about those, and I've also told him that ASL is used in Canada and Mexico and a lot of Asian and African countries, but he skipped over that part, :giggle:



RedFox said:
You mentioned that he got this idea from Black's dictionary. Which edition is he using? I looked up the publishing years for its editions.

1st: 1891
2nd: 1910
3rd: 1933
4th: 1951
5th: 1979
6th: 1990
7th: 1999
8th: 2004

2nd pocket: 2001
3rd pocket: 2006

If he's using an old edition, it's outdated. Or he's confusing ASL with SEE. I saw two videos somewhere by someone who signed the same thing in SEE and ASL, with the SEE version being longer.

Who wrote the dictionary? Were they knowledgeable about Deaf related topics? Being an expert in legal issues doesn't make you an expert in Deaf ones. I wonder exactly what it said in the dictionary. I could look it up the next time I go to the library.

As for Deaf culture, what does he think of all of those Deaf schools, Deaf clubs, Deaf organizations and books about Deaf culture? He could get in trouble with the Militant Deaf if he told them what he told you.
Click to expand...

Well, I just sent my message about the Deaf Culture, so he hasn't answered yet.
And I'm not sure what edition he's using, I'm not really big into the dictionary stuff like that, thats good that now I know when editions are printed and more about it.
And about telling others what he told me, I know he would :giggle:
 
I think the term "Deaf Culture" is loosely defined. I've heard many different definitions of "Deaf Culture".

You are not part of Deaf Culture if you... have hearing parents, have hearing friends, have cochlear implants, don't embrace ASL as your only form of communication, date hearing people, have a hearing wife/husband, claim yourself as hard-of-hearing or deaf (little 'd'), etc.

That is just a mixed list of things I've heard from various people. Some people say that I am part of Deaf Culture, while others say I am not. Some say that I'm "not deaf enough" to be part of Deaf Culture.

So, you could say that Deaf Culture has it own sub-groups that identifies themselves with Deaf Culture.

As for ASL, it is often considered a language of its own. It has its own syntax, grammar, vocabulary, use, etc.

A person who knows only ASL is going to struggle with English.
 
The problem isn't what defines Deaf Culture, but that Deaf Culture exists at all, for him, anyway.
 
VamPyroX said:
I think the term "Deaf Culture" is loosely defined. I've heard many different definitions of "Deaf Culture".

You are not part of Deaf Culture if you... have hearing parents, have hearing friends, have cochlear implants, don't embrace ASL as your only form of communication, date hearing people, have a hearing wife/husband, claim yourself as hard-of-hearing or deaf (little 'd'), etc.

That is just a mixed list of things I've heard from various people. Some people say that I am part of Deaf Culture, while others say I am not. Some say that I'm "not deaf enough" to be part of Deaf Culture.

So, you could say that Deaf Culture has it own sub-groups that identifies themselves with Deaf Culture.

As for ASL, it is often considered a language of its own. It has its own syntax, grammar, vocabulary, use, etc.

A person who knows only ASL is going to struggle with English.
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What do u mean knowing only ASL? All Deaf children grow up being exposed to English whether it is spoken or in print so I dont understand the concept of knowing only ASL.

If u mean that as a first language, then u are wrong because it is not true for everyone. I know so many deaf people who learned ASL as their first language who have excellent English skills.

It all depends on each individual on who struggles with English or not..not because of ASL.
 
I also remembered that ASL involves subject-object-verb or object-subject-verb syntax and plenty of rhetorical questions and other stuff.

There's also William Stokoe's studies of ASL as its own language and the existence of pages like this.

I'm sure that there are signs that are hard to translate easily into English. Tell him to try translating ASL poetry into English. :D He'll see that it's not a one-to-one mapping from the signs to words, like it would be for SEE.

I once worked on a project in middle school to interview Deaf adults about their lives and tried to translate the taped interviews to written English. It was hard and I had to rewind to catch everything because the structures of the languages are different.

Saying that ASL is a branch of English is as crazy as saying Lojban is too. If he's so logical, he'll love Lojban. :D
 
VamPyroX said:
I think the term "Deaf Culture" is loosely defined. I've heard many different definitions of "Deaf Culture".

You are not part of Deaf Culture if you... have hearing parents, have hearing friends, have cochlear implants, don't embrace ASL as your only form of communication, date hearing people, have a hearing wife/husband, claim yourself as hard-of-hearing or deaf (little 'd'), etc.

That is just a mixed list of things I've heard from various people. Some people say that I am part of Deaf Culture, while others say I am not. Some say that I'm "not deaf enough" to be part of Deaf Culture.

So, you could say that Deaf Culture has it own sub-groups that identifies themselves with Deaf Culture.

As for ASL, it is often considered a language of its own. It has its own syntax, grammar, vocabulary, use, etc.

A person who knows only ASL is going to struggle with English.
Click to expand...

Part of my reason for not going to Gallaudet and not being more involved with Deaf activities stems from past experiences where I've been told I was not Deaf enough to be part of that culture. It's very alienating.

Ever since I was young, I've had my own culture instead.

I don't have Deaf parents, my parents don't know ASL, I've dated hearing women, and other things that would make the Gallaudet Elite crowd blush (don't take it personally, a lot of my friends were staunch Gally supporters).
 
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