Minn. Judge Rules Teen Must See Cancer Doctor

Hear Again said:
Should he quit chemo and die prematurely? I hope you never have the experience of knowing someone who is diagnosed with cancer. Treatment options aren't as black and white as you think.
Click to expand...

*nodding sadly*
 
Leader defends church at center of chemo case
He says most seeking alternative therapies pair with conventional methods

Phillip Cloudpiler Landis, who leads his own Native American church, the Nemenhah Band, sits in a park in Stockton, Mo. Landis, of Weaubleau, Mo., says he never heard of Colleen Hauser, a Minnesota woman who defying a court order to get chemotherapy to treat her 13-year-old son's cancer, but while he urges them to return home, he also respects their decision to defy the orders of doctors.

STOCKTON, Mo. - Phillip Cloudpiler Landis was raised Mormon in western Washington and didn’t think much about what he considers his American Indian heritage until he went to prison.

“What better place to have to sit and reflect upon what motivates you,” he said.

Landis now leads the Nemenhah Band, an Internet-based group recently thrown into the spotlight when one of its far-flung members fled with her cancer-stricken son to avoid chemotherapy.

Landis, 47, has never met Colleen Hauser or her 13-year-old son, Daniel, and urged them to return home. But he supports the Hausers’ decision to defy the recommendations of doctors, who “may be the high priests of the medical religion, but who are spiritually bankrupt.”

The attention on Landis concerns some in the field of alternative medicine.

“A lot of people are attaching themselves to the alternative medicine field,” said Lorenzo Cohen, director of the Integrative Medicine Program at the MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston. “It does give quote-unquote alternative medicine a bad name.”

Cohen said most people seeking alternative therapies use them in combination with conventional therapies, such as chemotherapy, and called the Hauser case “particularly tragic” because Daniel has a “very curable pediatric cancer.”

American Indian groups also have expressed misgivings about Landis and his group.

“There are a lot of sham artists around like these guys, and they ultimately disrespect Indian people and Indian nations and Indian organizations like the Native American Church,” said Steven Moore, senior attorney for the Native American Rights Fund in Boulder, Colo.

Landis describes his group as a healing-based religion open to people from “all walks of life, and all tribes, nations, kindreds and tongues ... who set their foot on the healing path.”

Colleen Hauser joined the Nemenhah a few months ago as her son dealt with cancer, which is “not inconsistent with how a lot of our members join,” Landis said.

“They’re thrown into a medical situation, the medical hierarchy hasn’t too many real answers for them, and they begin to search,” he said.

On its Web site, the group suggests members pay an initial $250 fee, then $100 annually, plus “regular, monthly offerings.” The site does not appear to espouse any particular type of alternative therapy.

The group’s rituals include the use of sweat lodges and sacred breaths, said Landis, who does not advocate the use of peyote, which is used by the Native American Church of North America. He said the Nemenhah Band is an affiliate of another group called the Native American Church.

Moore, however, said Landis does not have “any affiliation with a legitimate, valid, Native American Church chapter or organization anywhere in the United States.”

The Nemenhah Band came together about 10 years ago in central Utah by a group of women who felt they had a calling, Landis said. He said he was elected principle medicine chief in part because of his claim to be related to Chief Joseph of the Nez Perce.

But Julie Kane, managing attorney for the Nez Perce in Idaho, said Landis is not Nez Perce and the tribe asked him to stop using references to it a few years ago.

“He is not at all Nez Perce. He is not even a descendant,” Kane said.

Colleen Hauser left Minnesota on Monday with Daniel, who has Hodgkin’s lymphoma, a highly curable cancer when treated with chemotherapy and radiation. The Hausers preferred alternative remedies, and Daniel and his mother fled a day before a court hearing that could have resulted in a judge ordering chemotherapy.

The Hausers, who are not American Indian, were seen in Southern California on Tuesday, and were thought to have headed to Mexico. Authorities said Friday that Interpol had joined in the search.

While Hauser leads authorities on an international search, Landis has been left answering questions about the Nemenhah.

“We can support her desire to seek alternative medicine,” he said. “But we cannot support her committing a felony.”

He speaks freely about his past and his move from Utah last year to southern Missouri when his probation ended after serving several months in prison on fraud charges tied to the sale of natural remedies.

“Trees brought us here,” he said, throwing his arms open wide. “We are not a desert family.”

Landis, his wife and four children started in Weaubleau, which has a population of about 500. The family has since moved about 30 miles away to land north of Stockton, a southwest Missouri town of about 2,000 where Landis says he is building a “lodge” for his family and for the Nemenhah Band, which he claims has about 4,000 members.

He said Western medicine has its place, describing a time when his daughter knelt on a nail that went under her kneecap. The nail came out, Landis said, but there was no way to see what, if any, damage had been done. Landis did what many parents would do: He took his child to the hospital and had her knee X-rayed. She also received a tetanus shot.

“Our main tenet is ‘First, do no harm,’ not ‘First do nothing,”’ Landis said.

He said he lost faith in most traditional medicine after a bout with bubonic plague, a broken back and cancer, which he said disappeared thanks to a tea-like concoction made from a mushroom. He still drinks the mushroom tea daily, 15 years after his diagnosis.

Landis described Daniel as a youth minister.

“The fear was so great that she broke,” Landis said of Colleen Hauser. “But it pales in comparison to what she and her family will go through if she goes to jail. I’ve been there; I know what she’d go through.”

Leader defends church at center of chemo case - Health care- msnbc.com
 
Hear Again said:
Should he quit chemo and die prematurely? I hope you never have the experience of knowing someone who is diagnosed with cancer. Treatment options aren't as black and white as you think.
Click to expand...

and the treatment success rate isn't black and white either. and yes I do know a friend's mom who has have chemotherapy last year. It's not pretty.. especially on children. So this poses another question - should he continue chemo and die in process or die shortly afterward?

it goes back to the question I asked in the first place in this thread - What would happen if he died from chemotherapy as ordered by court?
 
Jiro said:
and the treatment success rate isn't black and white either. and yes I do know a friend's mom who has have chemotherapy last year. It's not pretty.. especially on children. So this poses another question - should he continue chemo and die in process or die shortly afterward?

it goes back to the question I asked in the first place in this thread - What would happen if he died from chemotherapy as ordered by court?
Click to expand...

Well, depend on how many % chance, the children have.

I would not agree to have chemo therapy on my children if there´re less than 50% chance because it would risk children´s life but that boy´s chance is 90% which is VERY GOOD.
 
Liebling:-))) said:
Well, depend on how many % chance, the children have.

I would not agree to have chemo therapy on my children if there´re less than 50% chance because it would risk children´s life but that boy´s chance is 90% which is VERY GOOD.
Click to expand...

that's for you to decide for your own children. We should not be telling them what to do.
 
Jiro said:
that's for you to decide for your own children. We should not be telling them what to do.
Click to expand...

The judge rule boy to have chemo therapy because he have 90% chance, not less than 50% chance.

It´s doctor´s decision to know either chemo can cure or not. The doctor is obligate to feed cons/pros to us and leave the decision to us parents if our children´s chance is LESS than 50%. .
 
Liebling:-))) said:
The judge rule boy to have chemo therapy because he have 90% chance, not less than 50% chance.

It´s doctor´s decision to know either chemo can cure or not. The doctor is obligate to feed cons/pros to us and leave the decision to us parents if our children´s chance is LESS than 50%. .
Click to expand...

no... doctors are not obligated to use the best option against their wish. The judge ordered chemotherapy. Despite of result - I see a case of medical, legal, and moral violations.
 
Jiro said:
no... doctors are not obligated to use the best option against their wish. The judge ordered chemotherapy. Despite of result - I see a case of medical, legal, and moral violations.
Click to expand...

Which you still have not specified to Jillio at her request.
 
Liebling:-))) said:
Leader defends church at center of chemo case
He says most seeking alternative therapies pair with conventional methods

Phillip Cloudpiler Landis, who leads his own Native American church, the Nemenhah Band, sits in a park in Stockton, Mo. Landis, of Weaubleau, Mo., says he never heard of Colleen Hauser, a Minnesota woman who defying a court order to get chemotherapy to treat her 13-year-old son's cancer, but while he urges them to return home, he also respects their decision to defy the orders of doctors.

STOCKTON, Mo. - Phillip Cloudpiler Landis was raised Mormon in western Washington and didn’t think much about what he considers his American Indian heritage until he went to prison.

“What better place to have to sit and reflect upon what motivates you,” he said.

Landis now leads the Nemenhah Band, an Internet-based group recently thrown into the spotlight when one of its far-flung members fled with her cancer-stricken son to avoid chemotherapy.

Landis, 47, has never met Colleen Hauser or her 13-year-old son, Daniel, and urged them to return home. But he supports the Hausers’ decision to defy the recommendations of doctors, who “may be the high priests of the medical religion, but who are spiritually bankrupt.”

The attention on Landis concerns some in the field of alternative medicine.

“A lot of people are attaching themselves to the alternative medicine field,” said Lorenzo Cohen, director of the Integrative Medicine Program at the MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston. “It does give quote-unquote alternative medicine a bad name.”

Cohen said most people seeking alternative therapies use them in combination with conventional therapies, such as chemotherapy, and called the Hauser case “particularly tragic” because Daniel has a “very curable pediatric cancer.”

American Indian groups also have expressed misgivings about Landis and his group.

“There are a lot of sham artists around like these guys, and they ultimately disrespect Indian people and Indian nations and Indian organizations like the Native American Church,” said Steven Moore, senior attorney for the Native American Rights Fund in Boulder, Colo.

Landis describes his group as a healing-based religion open to people from “all walks of life, and all tribes, nations, kindreds and tongues ... who set their foot on the healing path.”

Colleen Hauser joined the Nemenhah a few months ago as her son dealt with cancer, which is “not inconsistent with how a lot of our members join,” Landis said.

“They’re thrown into a medical situation, the medical hierarchy hasn’t too many real answers for them, and they begin to search,” he said.

On its Web site, the group suggests members pay an initial $250 fee, then $100 annually, plus “regular, monthly offerings.” The site does not appear to espouse any particular type of alternative therapy.

The group’s rituals include the use of sweat lodges and sacred breaths, said Landis, who does not advocate the use of peyote, which is used by the Native American Church of North America. He said the Nemenhah Band is an affiliate of another group called the Native American Church.

Moore, however, said Landis does not have “any affiliation with a legitimate, valid, Native American Church chapter or organization anywhere in the United States.”

The Nemenhah Band came together about 10 years ago in central Utah by a group of women who felt they had a calling, Landis said. He said he was elected principle medicine chief in part because of his claim to be related to Chief Joseph of the Nez Perce.

But Julie Kane, managing attorney for the Nez Perce in Idaho, said Landis is not Nez Perce and the tribe asked him to stop using references to it a few years ago.

“He is not at all Nez Perce. He is not even a descendant,” Kane said.

Colleen Hauser left Minnesota on Monday with Daniel, who has Hodgkin’s lymphoma, a highly curable cancer when treated with chemotherapy and radiation. The Hausers preferred alternative remedies, and Daniel and his mother fled a day before a court hearing that could have resulted in a judge ordering chemotherapy.

The Hausers, who are not American Indian, were seen in Southern California on Tuesday, and were thought to have headed to Mexico. Authorities said Friday that Interpol had joined in the search.

While Hauser leads authorities on an international search, Landis has been left answering questions about the Nemenhah.

“We can support her desire to seek alternative medicine,” he said. “But we cannot support her committing a felony.”

He speaks freely about his past and his move from Utah last year to southern Missouri when his probation ended after serving several months in prison on fraud charges tied to the sale of natural remedies.

“Trees brought us here,” he said, throwing his arms open wide. “We are not a desert family.”

Landis, his wife and four children started in Weaubleau, which has a population of about 500. The family has since moved about 30 miles away to land north of Stockton, a southwest Missouri town of about 2,000 where Landis says he is building a “lodge” for his family and for the Nemenhah Band, which he claims has about 4,000 members.

He said Western medicine has its place, describing a time when his daughter knelt on a nail that went under her kneecap. The nail came out, Landis said, but there was no way to see what, if any, damage had been done. Landis did what many parents would do: He took his child to the hospital and had her knee X-rayed. She also received a tetanus shot.

“Our main tenet is ‘First, do no harm,’ not ‘First do nothing,”’ Landis said.

He said he lost faith in most traditional medicine after a bout with bubonic plague, a broken back and cancer, which he said disappeared thanks to a tea-like concoction made from a mushroom. He still drinks the mushroom tea daily, 15 years after his diagnosis.

Landis described Daniel as a youth minister.

“The fear was so great that she broke,” Landis said of Colleen Hauser. “But it pales in comparison to what she and her family will go through if she goes to jail. I’ve been there; I know what she’d go through.”

Leader defends church at center of chemo case - Health care- msnbc.com
Click to expand...

Thanks for the article, Liebling. This guy is nothing but an ex-con scam artist.
 
Jiro said:
what do you mean a few months ago? it's only been about a month.


He began his first round of chemo in February. According to my calendar, that is a full 4 months.
no... it said - he's responding POORLY to chemotherapy and drugs. this is not just about side effect we're talking about.
Click to expand...

The only poor response noted is his vomiting and nausea. Since he just started his second round of chemo on Wed. and the stroy came out on Friday, it is too early to determine how the cancer itself is responding. Chemo isn't fairy dust. You don't take one dose and notice an effect on the disease process. If he was taking antibiotics for a bacterial infection, you wouldn't notice a difference in the disease process after a mere 48 hours, either. But you might get nausea and vomiting from taking them, which means you are not tolerating them as well as someone that doesn't have nausea and vomiting. It in no way means that they are not effective for the disease being treated.

However, due to the fact that since February, the cancer has worsened and the tumor has increased in size means that, even after an extended period of time, herbal treatments were not working. And you also need to keep in mind that his mother said he is "responding poorly", just because he is vomiting. That is hardly a medical assessment as to whether the cancer is responding to treatment.
 
Jiro said:
and the treatment success rate isn't black and white either. and yes I do know a friend's mom who has have chemotherapy last year. It's not pretty.. especially on children. So this poses another question - should he continue chemo and die in process or die shortly afterward?

it goes back to the question I asked in the first place in this thread - What would happen if he died from chemotherapy as ordered by court?
Click to expand...

You again are attempting to throw hypothetical questions into the equation in an attempt to confuse the issues.

You say you watched your friend's mom go through chemo therapy and it wasn't pretty. No, it isn't. But let me ask you this...how many people have you watched die of cancer? That is even less pretty. How many kids have you watched die of lymphoma? It is excrutiatingly painful. And it doesn't happen quickly. It is a long, slow, painful death.
 
jillio said:
You again are attempting to throw hypothetical questions into the equation in an attempt to confuse the issues.

You say you watched your friend's mom go through chemo therapy and it wasn't pretty. No, it isn't. But let me ask you this...how many people have you watched die of cancer? That is even less pretty. How many kids have you watched die of lymphoma? It is excrutiatingly painful. And it doesn't happen quickly. It is a long, slow, painful death.
Click to expand...

:gpost:

My mother suffered for 5 months before she died. 24 hours before she passed away, she was vomiting blood.

According to her doctors, if I had not called 911 the night I did, she wouldn't have survived.

Fortunately, she was able to enjoy one full day without pain.

Given everything else she went through physically and mentally, it was pure hell on her and it broke my heart to see her suffer the way she did.
 
Jiro said:
no... doctors are not obligated to use the best option against their wish. The judge ordered chemotherapy. Despite of result - I see a case of medical, legal, and moral violations.
Click to expand...

And I see a case of someone making accusations of medical and legal violations, but unable to cite exactly which of those have been violated. I asked you previously to tell us all exactly which medical ethics have been violated, and exactly which laws have been violated. You have failed to do so. Until you can list the specific ethics and laws that have been violated, your accusation of such is nothing more than hot air.
 
Jiro said:
my post #411 for starter
Click to expand...

Post number 411 does not outline any specific laws or ethics that have been violated. Please list the specific ethics and laws that have been violated, and substantiate your claim with an accepted model of ethical decision making that is applied to the medical profession.

You keep giving an opinion, but you have failed to provide anything that supports that opinion. If you believe that ethics have been violated, please support your opinion with exactly how you have reached that conclusion.
 
jillio said:
The only poor response noted is his vomiting and nausea. Since he just started his second round of chemo on Wed. and the stroy came out on Friday, it is too early to determine how the cancer itself is responding. Chemo isn't fairy dust. You don't take one dose and notice an effect on the disease process. If he was taking antibiotics for a bacterial infection, you wouldn't notice a difference in the disease process after a mere 48 hours, either. But you might get nausea and vomiting from taking them, which means you are not tolerating them as well as someone that doesn't have nausea and vomiting. It in no way means that they are not effective for the disease being treated.

However, due to the fact that since February, the cancer has worsened and the tumor has increased in size means that, even after an extended period of time, herbal treatments were not working. And you also need to keep in mind that his mother said he is "responding poorly", just because he is vomiting. That is hardly a medical assessment as to whether the cancer is responding to treatment.
Click to expand...

February 5 - he received 1st round of chemotherapy
April 6 - he failed to report to hospital for 2nd round thus hospital reported his family to authority
May 25 - he came back to Minnesota
 
Back
Top