Is this fair or not?

You don't happen to have stats on this? Just curious if this is true. Know that some strict countries have a low rate on crime, like you say. But Texas, which is famous for death penalty seems to have some really numbers on crime? Just curious.

If chopping off hands, the deaf could go mute, while the hearing/oral person can go on communicating. Guess this means deaf people would become more honest than hearing people..

Reminds me of some cases where deaf people are prisoned. This deaf person will be more isolated than a hearing person, so the punishment have different effect. The result was that the deaf person got less time spent in prison due to communication barriers, or punishment in "open prisons".

Not sure if everyone agree that's ok.

one can say that the reason why death penalty in America wasn't effective as most think is because the due process for it was VERY LONG. FAR too long. the argument was said that if the death penalty/imprisonment/issuance of punishment was SWIFT, the deterrent would be effectively better.

but then.... swift justice = uncivilized world
 
one can say that the reason why death penalty in America wasn't effective as most think is because the due process for it was VERY LONG. FAR too long. the argument was said that if the death penalty/imprisonment/issuance of punishment was SWIFT, the deterrent would be effectively better.

but then.... swift justice = uncivilized world

what arguement? wheres the source? link perhaps?
 
That's a good point. ;)


maybe, if it was only true.. some poor still keep going back to jail. some never learn.

Same with the wealthy, they don't like the humiliation (or even the thought of going to jail), some learn from it and some don't.
 
I tell you one thing, Thank Goodness for lawyers (rather they are provided for free or not, I trust any of them to do the best job they can... yes, I trust lawyers) , because as a deaf person who express herself very different from most people, they can make SURE that the judge don't misinterpret me.

It's always a good idea to get a lawyer who understands you and your background. I don't think a poor lawyer can really relate to a rich client. Unless he came from a rich family himself.
 
I tell you one thing, Thank Goodness for lawyers (rather they are provided for free or not, I trust any of them to do the best job they can... yes, I trust lawyers) , because as a deaf person who express herself very different from most people, they can make SURE that the judge don't misinterpret me.

It's always a good idea to get a lawyer who understands you and your background. I don't think a poor lawyer can really relate to a rich client. Unless he came from a rich family himself.

Fucking Bullshit!

Good lawyers have better sense of justice, and proper expressions does not indeed rely on class, but on sound knowledge of the system with proved ability to apply these knowledge to win debates. Basically lawyers are paid to debate the outcome of punishment or retribution. The higher a lawyer costs does not mean greater chance for guaranteeing to secure the case to sway favour to your side, it just simply a scale of greed, as in 'fee'. For instance you may be paying for that brand new pin striped Armani or that black Gucci suits, or that silver Versace suits and hell of course they arent gonna tell you that!

The idea of trust based on class is surely a fucked up, remember Erin Brockovich.
 
That's exactly why, people don't really like the high class and call them greedy. let greedy people get greedy lawyers.
 
what arguement? wheres the source? link perhaps?

tons... to name few -

The Myth of Deterrence: Death penalty does not reduce homicide rate

Freakonomics
Advocates of the death penalty will be shocked by Levitt and Dubner's evidence that it has had no deterrent effect on the murder rate in the US. They explain this very simply: not enough people are executed, even in America, for the death penalty to produce any change in the behaviour of anyone contemplating murder. In the US as a whole, only two per cent of criminals waiting on death row can expect to be executed in any given year (it makes death row a lot safer than being a crack dealer in Chicago, where the risk of death is more than three times as high). Some states have reinstituted capital punishment and then not executed anyone. New York state, for instance, brought back capital punishment, with much political and media fanfare, in 1995. But since then, not a single criminal has been executed.

Levitt and Dubner conclude that the death penalty in the US is "an empty threat... no reasonable criminal should be deterred by it". They leave open the disturbing possibility that, if the US courts did start killing people at a much higher rate, it would have an effect on reducing crime. In discussing the failure of America's meagre controls on purchasing guns to have any effect at all on the penetration of gun ownership, the authors note that "If the death penalty were assessed to anyone carrying an illegal gun, and if the penalty were actually enforced, gun crimes would surely plunge." The authors do not say whether or not they think this would be a sensible policy.

Levitt—and the arguments are almost all his: Dubner is his amanuensis—insists that increased rates of imprisonment do reduce crime. He says the figures make that conclusion irresistible: the late 1960s, when American politicians started to send far fewer people to jail, were, as he puts it "a great time to be a criminal". Criminals were smart enough to work out that they faced dramatically reduced risks of punishment. The result was a crime boom, which was not tackled until politicians decided that prison was effective after all. Today, four times as many Americans are in prison as were incarcerated in 1972. Having risen inexorably until the early 1990s, crime in America is now at the level it was in the late 1950s.

Increased use of prison is one part of the explanation for America's spectacular, and enviable, fall in crime. So is the increase in police numbers. Levitt, however, doesn't think that more prisons and more police officers can be the whole explanation for the halving of America's rate of violent crime. The search for a further factor brings Levitt to his most controversial thesis: his suggestion that perhaps one third of the fall in crime is attributable to the legalisation of abortion in America in 1970.
 
BTW, I know a fundamental christian lawyer.. If you want to put a blindfold on class or maybe group.. Do you want him to be your lawyer. I want him to be mine :)
 
Fucking Bullshit!

Good lawyers have better sense of justice, and proper expressions does not indeed rely on class, but on sound knowledge of the system with proved ability to apply these knowledge to win debates. Basically lawyers are paid to debate the outcome of punishment or retribution. The higher a lawyer costs does not mean greater chance for guaranteeing to secure the case to sway favour to your side, it just simply a scale of greed, as in 'fee'. For instance you may be paying for that brand new pin striped Armani or that black Gucci suits, or that silver Versace suits and hell of course they arent gonna tell you that!

The idea of trust based on class is surely a fucked up, remember Erin Brockovich.

you're forgetting that the crucial factor to high lawyer fee is because that lawyer is well-resourced, well-equipped with a legal team. Rich people hires a law FIRM, not a lawyer. That's how it works in rich people world. They pay monthly (or yearly) "fee" for law firm like you do with car insurance company. The more expensive the firm is, the more resource and coverage it has. It will be able to assist you by sending you a highly-qualified lawyer for your certain legal trouble - anywhere, anytime.

Court-paid lawyer does not have this kind of resource. he has to actually "google" for precedent cases, research, etc. by himself... if he's lucky - he'd have an intern. Problem is - he spends a minimal amount of time on each case because he has too many caseloads on his desk.
 

Actually, there are numerous psychological and sociological studies that claim the reason that the death penalty has no deterrent effect on murder rates is because the vast majority of murders fall into the category of "crimes of passion", not premeditated murders. The state of mind of the murderer, when committing a "crime of passion" is not such that, at the moment the crime is committed, they are even considering punishment.
 
you're forgetting that the crucial factor to high lawyer fee is because that lawyer is well-resourced, well-equipped with a legal team. Rich people hires a law FIRM, not a lawyer. That's how it works in rich people world. They pay monthly (or yearly) "fee" for law firm like you do with car insurance company. The more expensive the firm is, the more resource and coverage it has. It will be able to assist you by sending you a highly-qualified lawyer for your certain legal trouble - anywhere, anytime.

Court-paid lawyer does not have this kind of resource. he has to actually "google" for precedent cases, research, etc. by himself... if he's lucky - he'd have an intern. Problem is - he spends a minimal amount of time on each case because he has too many caseloads on his desk.

Lawyers don't use Google for finding precedents.:giggle:

Most law firms that are on retainer by the wealthy are not criminal defense attorneys.
 
Lawyers don't use Google for finding precedents.:giggle:

Most law firms that are on retainer by the wealthy are not criminal defense attorneys.

sorry - I meant to say lexis nexis or whatever they use for law database. "Google" has become a verb - "search something online"

"Google it!"
 
Actually, there are numerous psychological and sociological studies that claim the reason that the death penalty has no deterrent effect on murder rates is because the vast majority of murders fall into the category of "crimes of passion", not premeditated murders. The state of mind of the murderer, when committing a "crime of passion" is not such that, at the moment the crime is committed, they are even considering punishment.

yep.... that's why i said "to name few...." on my part. For other part - that's where you come in :P
 
yep.... that's why i said "to name few...." on my part. For other part - that's where you come in :P

I figured you'd ask, so this should get you started:

Finkelstein, C. (2006). A Contractarian argument against the death penalty. New York University Law Review. p1283-1330.

Does the death penalty deter? (2006). Wilson Quarterly. 30(3). p77-78.

Barnes, K. & Lempert, R. (2004). The death penalty today: Is there even a slight deterrence? Conference Papers-Law & Society. Chicago, IL. pN.PAF, Op

Bailey, W.C. (1998). Deterrence, brutalization, and the death penalty: Another examination of Oklahoma’s return to capital punishment. Criminology. 36(4). p711-733.

Radelet, M.L., & Akers, R.L. (1996). Deterrence and the death penalty: The views of the experts. Journal of Criminal Law & Criminology. 87(1). p1-16.
 
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I figured you'd ask, so this should get you started:

Finkelstein, C. (2006). A Contractarian argument against the death penalty. New York University Law Review. p1283-1330.

Does the death penalty deter? (2006). Wilson Quarterly. 30(3). p77-78.

Barnes, K. & Lempert, R. (2004). The death penalty today: Is there even a slight deterrence? Conference Papers-Law & Society. Chicago, IL. pN.PAF, Op

Bailey, W.C. (1998). Deterrence, brutalization, and the death penalty: Another examination of Oklahoma’s return to capital punishment. Criminology. 36(4). p711-733.

Radelet, M.L., & Akers, R.L. (1996). Deterrence and the death penalty: The views of the experts. Journal of Criminal Law & Criminology. 87(1). p1-16.

that should entertain Grummer and other ADers. My stance on this issue is that I do want to keep death penalty on the table.
 
that should entertain Grummer and other ADers. My stance on this issue is that I do want to keep death penalty on the table.

Then I would think that you would have substantial evidence to support your stance. Or are you just proposing executing people from an emotional perspective?
 
Then I would think that you would have substantial evidence to support your stance. Or are you just proposing executing people from an emotional perspective?

I'm with jillio on this.

I used to be for the death penalty before when I was an emotional thinker. As I got older and had more personal growth, some call it life experiences, I'm now a logical thinker.

I'm quite hesitant about the death penalty because it's not our place to send people to their deaths.
 
Then I would think that you would have substantial evidence to support your stance. Or are you just proposing executing people from an emotional perspective?

I don't need statistical argument to back my stance. It's just the way it is. BTW - I thought you would know me already by now based on 10000000000000000 locked threads in the past :lol: my decisions on anything is hardly from emotional perspective. :cool2:

oh btw - i forgot to mention that I want the use of death penalty to be narrowed. much narrower than now.
 
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