Is it really so bad to know SEE (Sign Exact English?)

Reba, I can see you are very much against the use of SEE to teach literacy, to the point of getting irate about my questions about it.

This surprises me, because, as I mentioned, I don't see any of that hostility towards the system in the Deaf community I know here in MA. Dr. Brenda Schick, known at Gallaudet for her work with DHH children, has explicitly stated "We're definitely not opposed to Signing Exact English" in answer to those who ask if her findings run counter to the use of SEE. I think sometimes the heightened emotions around the subject is just the usual forum backlash against Csign, not really against SEE itself. But based on your reasons why you despise SEE, it would seem that you are also against the use of Visual Phonics. Is that right?

See the Sound - Visual Phonics is a system of 46 unique hand cues and symbols that represent the sounds of English without the ambiguity of English orthography. Included are the sounds commonly referred to as vowels, consonants, diphthongs and digraphs. It is somewhat of a simplified, visual, kinesthetic version of the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA).
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Bottesini said:
You may be about ready to implode again, as you often do when you try to get so smart.

This does remind me of the time you were having a fight with someone about the inadvisability of putting all the pictures and info about your child in public, and you decided it would be appropriate to say I must be some sort of pervert as you had seen a video of my granddaughter and me signing...

Lest you say not so, I am pretty sure the mods do keep these weird posts archived after they ban someone for such insane and inappropriate behavior. :ugh:
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:hmm: Do you really imagine that I called you a pervert? What a strange twisted world you must run around in if that's how you remember things. Think back. Try hard to remember. You do realize that it was the other person who said that those of us who had photos of children/grandchildren on this forum were the perverts, not me, right? Do you need a copy of that thread? I'd be happy to post it if you are really accusing me of calling you a pervert.
 
shel90 said:
Ok and the point is?

Question is...can deaf children achieve fluency in Englsih and were any of them, including myself, able to achieve fluency in English historically without being able to hear it like hearing children do?
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Using other tools besides spoken language mode? Yes, isn't that exactly the argument for using coded systems like Visual Phonics, SEE, CS, Fundations, fingerspelling, and so on? Finding visual means of teaching children to read and write without sound.
 
I don't understand why people seem to see the use of these learning tools and MCEs to teach children to read and write English as being somehow "anti-ASL." One is a language, one a teaching tool.

Marc Marschark, the preeminent researcher in the area of deaf education, heading up RIT's CERP program, when asked what he would do if he had a deaf child:
So, now that I've seen the evidence, I would seriously consider a cochlear implant for my child, even if, at the same time, I would push for the acquisition of ASL as a first language and use some English-based signing as a bridge to English print.
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Wirelessly posted

Literacy is fluent when you have access to books, not speech. Since the beginning of the computer era, literacy even among hearing children and students has spiraled downwards and correct spelling is dying due to the lack of reading books nowadays. It has nothing to do with whether you can hear or not.
 
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BecLak said:
Wirelessly posted

Literacy is fluent when you have access to books, not speech. Since the the beginning of the computer era, literacy even among hearing children and students has spiraled downwards and correct spelling is dying due to the lack of reading books nowadays. It has nothing to do with whether you can hear or not.
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There actually is a widely studied and documented correlation with being deaf and poor literacy. But it's not a cognitive issue, which I think is your point. I've posted (and linked earlier in this thread) a recent study that argues that it's not a matter of lacking phonological awareness, which many claim is required to effectively learn to read/write. It most likely is how people are being taught to read/write, to connect meaning, concept/action to specific words/sentences, whether or not they have adequate tools.
 
Wirelessly posted

I, and many others here, never had those 'teaching tools' - but we had access to books. Very few of my era are considered lacking in literacy.
 
shel90 said:
Do not address to me, you traitor. I learned of the truth what you did behind my back. Iam going to block you. U make me sick.
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What a bizarre response considering I don't know you, and, I had things going on in my personal life that kept me offline for weeks/months at a time. :eek3:
 
Oceanbreeze said:
What a bizarre response considering I don't know you, and, I had things going on in my personal life that kept me offline for weeks/months at a time. :eek3:
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Perhaps a good time to reflect on your signature...:wave:
 
BecLak said:
Wirelessly posted

I, and many others here, never had those 'teaching tools' - but we had access to books. Very few of my era are considered lacking in literacy.
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Unfortunately, statistics show that your high level of literacy is unusual. I want my daughter to have the benefit of excellent tools and strategies for teaching deaf children that are available to her. This ability to harness tools and approaches beyond those in the typical classroom is one of the key arguments for the skills and expertise of teachers of the deaf. I think deaf learners require an education that targets how they learn -- not the same as the typical learner.
 
GrendelQ said:
Using other tools besides spoken language mode? Yes, isn't that exactly the argument for using coded systems like Visual Phonics, SEE, CS, Fundations, fingerspelling, and so on? Finding visual means of teaching children to read and write without sound.
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Do you support the idea of using those coded systems as the only way for deaf children to acquire language without ASL being present?

Thats the problem...many people are misusing these systems and using them as full fledged languages as an attempt to replace ASL.

That is where many of us have issues with. Many parents do use these systems as a replacement to ASL. CSign being one of them.
 
shel90 said:
Do you support the idea of using those coded systems as the only way for deaf children to acquire language without ASL being present?

Thats the problem...many people are misusing these systems and using them as full fledged languages as an attempt to replace ASL.

That is where many of us have issues with. Many parents do use these systems as a replacement to ASL. CSign being one of them.
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I haven't seen a single person suggest that in this entire thread.

From what I know, Csign and her child use both ASL and SEE.
 
GrendelQ said:
I haven't seen a single person suggest that in this entire thread.

From what I know, Csign and her child use both ASL and SEE.
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Who said anything about people suggesting it here in this thread? I am asking you if YOU support the idea and you didnt answer another question of mine again.

From what I remember she said SEE first and then ASL later.
 
shel90 said:
Who said anything about people suggesting it here in this thread? I am asking you if YOU support the idea and you didnt answer another question of mine again.

From what I remember she said SEE first and then ASL later.
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Don't you sign SEE with your hearing husband and ASL with ASL others? Same thing.
 
I think we also need to keep in mind the wide range of locations represented on this forum. For instance BecLak is from Australia and GrendelQ is from New England, USA. I think there are bound to be differences in the way things referred to by the same name are actually used.

By the way, BecLak, what is the era you are referring to when you say "my era"?
 
shel90 said:
Who said anything about people suggesting it here in this thread? I am asking you if YOU support the idea and you didnt answer another question of mine again.

From what I remember she said SEE first and then ASL later.
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shel90 said:
Do you support the idea of using those coded systems as the only way for deaf children to acquire language without ASL being present?

Thats the problem...many people are misusing these systems and using them as full fledged languages as an attempt to replace ASL.

That is where many of us have issues with. Many parents do use these systems as a replacement to ASL. CSign being one of them.
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Shel, I have repeatedly answered variations on your question in this thread: I do not think that using a coded system -- or any teaching approach you want to throw at me -- is the only way for deaf children to learn to read or to acquire language, if you want to broaden it beyond the scope we were addressing (literacy).

In fact, I have in my signature a quote from Marc Marschark that I completely agree with that underscores this belief with every post I make..
 
shel90 said:
Who said anything about people suggesting it here in this thread? I am asking you if YOU support the idea and you didnt answer another question of mine again.

From what I remember she said SEE first and then ASL later.
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Isn't that the same order you said you took with your children, too?
 
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