India, China won't sign Copenhagen Accord

[kokonut]

It is so comical that kokonut thinks that if we let corporations do whatever they want, they will magically become moral and be concerned about our health. Nope, they don't.

It took years of LAWSUITS AND REGULATIONS to make them accountable for the harm they've done to individuals or to the public.

If not for lawsuits and regulations, they'd still be polluting as much as they please.

Where did I say that or think that? Man, you ARE getting desperate here to get something in edgewise and put words into my mouth. You have no friggin idea. Of course it took lawsuits and tons of regulations to help change many of our pollutions It required public education on these things as well to spur action. Often it took an accident to jolt people into action like the 1969 Cuyahoga River fire which was one time too many river fires. Because of that fire spurred people to form the EPA.
Cuyahoga River 40th Anniversary | Region 5 Newsroom | US EPA

 

[TWA]

Implication of their actions? What? Like Earth will boil over because they didn't sign the accord or what?

Jiro pretty much already answered this, but I just didn't want to appear to have gone SILENT on the issue...

I reference not the implications of India and China ignoring global warming, but on their lack of regard for (in the case of China) the human rights of their citizens and, (in the case of both China and India) the environmental and industrial safety of their citizens.

If a country does not even care enough to protect its own citizens and safeguard their basic humanitarian rights, then how can you expect them to care about the rest of the world?

That was the point I was making.

 

[Jiro]

This is on the environment and how their own citizens have the power to make changes.

well - look at the graph you provided. the global warming (environment) is the least of the priority. That's pretty much same priority in most countries.

Do you know what's the biggest priority in China? I would say economy and human rights. As you said - "Rather it's that other countries should at least hurdle over the lowest bar there is which is pathetic. Not to mention quite backward. Other countries are light years ahead of the game in terms of freedom and liberty."

 

[Jiro]

Man, you ARE getting desperate here to get something in edgewise and put words into my mouth. You have no friggin idea.

*a bit hard to describe this picture but it's a pix of dog with its face looking like it's biting its lips, trying not to laugh. Caption says "MUST NOT LAUGH"

 

[kokonut]

1. never said it's impossible
2. 1 report? that's it?
3. I've already provided you proofs that China has arrested the activists. not 2 but thousands.

The U.S. have arrested many environmental activists as well, in the thousands over the years, many of them are simply looney ones. China will go through that, too. Yet, environmental activism *IS* taking root in China. A fact.

Did you even check out the reference section? Do you know what a "NGO" is? It'll happen. It's just a matter of time. They are at a stage very similar to that of the U.S. during the 70s when people didn't have much structure or direction.


Crossroads: A Review of Corporate Social Responsibility in China

 

[Jiro]

The U.S. have arrested many environmental activists as well, in the thousands over the years, many of them are simply looney ones. China will go through that, too. Yet, environmental activism *IS* taking root in China. A fact.

Did you even check out the reference section? Do you know what a "NGO" is? It'll happen. It's just a matter of time. They are at a stage very similar to that of the U.S. during the 70s when people didn't have much structure or direction.


Crossroads: A Review of Corporate Social Responsibility in China

*sigh* I think you need to look at what the activists were arrested for in USA and China.

Those 2 chinese activists I named above were not unruly nor resisting arrests. For heaven's sake - one of them is BLIND! They were quickly snatched from the public view by secret police and sent to prison.... because the Chinese government wanted to silence them.

We all know China has an extremely poor record of human rights. I'm confused by you. You were all hot and angry about we owing $1 trillion to China.... and now you're defending China that there's nothing morally wrong in China?

 

[kokonut]

well - look at the graph you provided. the global warming (environment) is the least of the priority. That's pretty much same priority in most countries.

Do you know what's the biggest priority in China? I would say economy and human rights. As you said - "Rather it's that other countries should at least hurdle over the lowest bar there is which is pathetic. Not to mention quite backward. Other countries are light years ahead of the game in terms of freedom and liberty."

Well, I certainly would not expect that economy be one of the bottom priority in all countries.

 

[Jiro]

Well, I certainly would not expect that economy would be one of the bottom priority in all countries.

right. so a progress for environmental situation in China? not anytime soon unless we nudge them.

Do you think we should keep nudging them?

 

[kokonut]

*sigh* I think you need to look at what the activists were arrested for in USA and China.

Those 2 chinese activists I named above were not unruly nor resisting arrests. For heaven's sake - one of them is BLIND! They were quickly snatched from the public view by secret police and sent to prison.... because the Chinese government wanted to silence them.

We all know China has an extremely poor record of human rights. I'm confused by you. You were all hot and angry about we owing $1 trillion to China.... and now you're defending China that there's nothing morally wrong in China?

Er, I simply pointed out the fact that environmental activism in China is growing and that environmental concerns are being discussed and addressed. And that more of them are seeing a moral environmental duty to address those concerns somehow. I don't know why you're throwing out the $1 trillion dollar bit except it's nothing but a red herring.

 

[kokonut]

right. so a progress for environmental situation in China? not anytime soon unless we nudge them.

Do you think we should keep nudging them?

We can provide them some ideas and direction but they are the ones that can make it happen, not us. It's their country.

 

[Jiro]

We can provide them some ideas and direction but they are the ones that can make it happen, not us. It's their country.

who said that we're gonna make it happen for them? The whole point of Copenhagen Accord is to collaborate together on environmental issue. Looks like India and China are not interested.

 

[netrox]

Yet, environmental activism *IS* taking root in China. A fact.

Oh gee! I wonder why! Can't be that communist companies all the sudden care for the earth! Who started the environmentalist organizations? Corporations? I think not!

Do you actually think we'd NOT have regulations if not for those "looney environmentalists?"

Just like those "feminazists" who insist that women should have equal rights.

 

[Jiro]

Er, I simply pointed out the fact that environmental activism in China is growing and that environmental concerns are being discussed and addressed. And that more of them are seeing a moral environmental duty to address those concerns somehow.

I haven't see any solid strong fact that environmental activism in China is growing. Yes I see that it's growing but it's growing at insignificant speed. After all.... the key leaders were censored, arrested, and shuffled away....

I don't know why you're throwing out the $1 trillion dollar bit except it's nothing but a red herring.

You do not recall this "red herring" post, no?

 

[kokonut]

Oh gee! I wonder why! Can't be that communist companies all the sudden care for the earth! Who started the environmentalist organizations? Corporations? I think not!

Do you actually think we'd NOT have regulations if not for those "looney environmentalists?"

Just like those "feminazists" who insist that women should have equal rights.

I don't think putting iron spikes into trees in the effort to somehow hurt or maim timber fellers when they use their chain saws count.

 

[kokonut]

I haven't see any solid strong fact that environmental activism in China is growing. Yes I see that it's growing but it's growing at insignificant speed. After all.... the key leaders were censored, arrested, and shuffled away....

You do not recall this "red herring" post, no?

You're minicing words here. Their environmental activism has and continues to grow. Like I said, they are very much at a stage like we were back in the 70s.

 

[kokonut]

You do not recall this "red herring" post, no?

No, it isn't. It was about money (i.e. "investment") and I responded that by "getting away from investing in China" would be hard since we owe them $1 trillion dollar.

 

[Jiro]

You're minicing words here. Their environmental activism has and continues to grow. Like I said, they are very much at a stage like we were back in the 70s.

Mincing words? I did no such thing. I merely provided the harsh reality on what's going on with environmental activism and other activism in China.

I lol'ed at your attempt to glorify China and I also lol'ed at your attempt to throw a smokescreen on China's notorious abuse of human rights. If there is a continuing abuse of human rights, how can there be activism as effective as activism in America?

after all... China = thousands of years of existence..... American... barely 300 years.... still need more time?

 

[kokonut]

Mincing words? I did no such thing. I merely provided the harsh reality on what's going on with environmental activism and other activism in China.

I lol'ed at your attempt to glorify China and I also lol'ed at your attempt to throw a smokescreen on China's notorious abuse of human rights. If there is a continuing abuse of human rights, how can there be activism as effective as activism in America?

after all... China = thousands of years of existence..... American... barely 300 years.... still need more time?

Pointing out that environmental activism is taking place in China is not glorifying China. No smokescreen attempt either. China is known for their human rights abuse, even Bush addresssed that. Just because I didn't specifically answer a certain question sthat doesn't mean I'm not acknowledging it. I certainly didn't forget Tiannamen Square. Or the past and current persecutions of the Falun Gong. Believe me, it's not lost on me.

What does China's long history has to do with a growing environmental activism taking place? It's a non sequitur comment.

 

[TWA]

What does China's long history has to do with a growing environmental activism taking place? It's a non sequitur comment.

It has EVERYTHING to do with it. The reason the Chinese government is tolerant of the environmental movement is because so far they are just annoying gnats. When they become real pests, do you think the Chinese government is going to give them a platform to speak from like the environmental movement in the USA?

Sure, they'll give them a platform...

 

[Jiro]

Pointing out that environmental activism is taking place in China is not glorifying China. No smokescreen attempt either. China is known for their human rights abuse, even Bush addresssed that. Just because I didn't specifically answer a certain question sthat doesn't mean I'm not acknowledging it. I certainly didn't forget Tiannamen Square. Or the past and current persecutions of the Falun Gong. Believe me, it's not lost on me.

good. very good.

What does China's long history has to do with a growing environmental activism taking place? It's a non sequitur comment.

a non sequitur comment? lol. need a hint again? Gao Zhisheng. Chen Guangcheng. still need another one?

Sichuan environmental activist and writer Tan Zuoren

China: Environmental activist at risk of torture

Sichuan environmental activist and writer Tan Zuoren was detained by the police in Chengdu city, Sichuan province on suspicion of “inciting subversion of state power” on 28 March. He is now detained at Wenjiang Detention Centre. Amnesty International believes that he is at risk of torture and other ill-treatment.

According to sources, local police requested Tan Zuoren to go to the police station for a talk on the morning of 28 March. At approximately 3:00pm the same afternoon, a group of police officers searched his home. The police took away some of his writings, other documents and video CDs and told his wife over the phone they had something to deliver to her. In the evening, the family received a notice issued by the Chengdu City Police Station which stated that Tan Zuoren had been detained for criminal investigation. The police rejected his wife’s request to meet with him.

Local sources believed that Tan Zuoren’s detention was linked to his intention to issue publicly on the first anniversary of the earthquake, a list of children who died during the earthquake on 12 May 2008, along with an independently investigated report on the collapse of many school buildings due to corruption.

Prior to this detention, Tan Zuoren had been repeatedly questioned by the police. He was also previously harassed by unidentified individuals who stole his computer twice and stabbed and injured his dog.

Tan Zuoren is a prominent environmentalist. He previously issued a report to warn against possible health, safety and environmental hazards by the government’s PX chemical projects in Sichuan province. He has also volunteered with disaster management after the earthquake.

Background information:

Human rights activists in China who attempt to report on human rights violations, challenge policies which the authorities find politically sensitive, or try to rally others to their cause, face serious risk of abuse. Broad and vaguely defined "stealing, possessing and leaking state secrets" and "subversion" charges are used to arbitrarily detain and prosecute activists, journalists and internet users. Many are jailed as prisoners of conscience after politically motivated trials, while growing numbers are being held under house arrest with the police conducting intrusive surveillance and standing guard outside. Since the beginning of 2009, a year that marks several sensitive anniversaries in China, the crackdown on human rights activists has intensified. Family members of human rights activists, including children, are increasingly targeted by the authorities in the crackdown.

In the wake of the Sichuan earthquake, Chinese authorities initially allowed unprecedented and widely praised reporting freedoms in the quake zone. However, later they curtailed foreign journalists and barred them entry from or escorted them out of towns in the affected areas. Human rights activists trying to investigate reasons for building collapse and families who lost their children and are trying to seek justice are being harassed and are under surveillance.