I'm not a Christian anymore
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christlovedeaf
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Prayer answered does not mean its there, it also meant its not His time or will and that apply what Jesus said, God gives rain and sunshine to both good and evil. I have seen miracles in many different ways in my life and others also. Doctors and scientist does not always have accurate views. Bec there are many won't do if dr said you have too, the person who said no, has cures and even tho, athiest constantly rejecting the views that God has actually done. Regardless, how you look at, always will be argumentive as mine isssue likewise. There are many ways, like a person has cancer, many surrounding has been harsh one another, when that person died, circumstances change. Also, even ur faith are strong and claiming regardless the circumstances, thinking your faith hold, when outcome hits, faith shaken and there are many ways, God far more knowing than we do. Humans knowledge are still shortcoming.
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Well, I would to share an example with you all.
My hubby´s great Aunt´s 14 years old daughter died of heart hole in 1944, that´s time the doctors/scientists have no idea how to cure heart hole... Many people died of cancer as well....... Prayer do CAN´T cure people healthy but doctors/scientists because they CAN cure the people´s healthy with their own hands. It´s Scientists who focus to improve healthy issues (cancer, heart diease, etc), not God.
If I want to stay alive then I do SOMETHING instead of pray God because I know the prayer will NEVER cure my healthy but doctors... It´s ME who do something to fight to improve my healthy & want the help.
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christlovedeaf
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In some way true. Prayer without action is useless. You must act out from that and God lead you the way. Like you mentioned about heart hole, in some way but not always succeed. For other side, look about doctor recommend many women has life threatening during pregnancy and need to abort the baby. Most women refuse and have faith in God and knowing whatever God's will is and knowing the choice is to keep the baby alive instead of murdering the baby, by women refusal 95 percent succeed both women and baby survived. There are doctors and scientist disagreeing one another. Likew I said, thinking praying and sit and do nothing expect God do the rest, that doesn't work that way. Like friend of mine, her sister has lethal tumor size of basketball and no hope for her, we prayed for her, not the same way as Benny Hinn. Doctor was amazed she survived which doctor never seen before and thought was impossible, but it didn't. Like I said, God works mysterious ways and there are many ways we don't understand.
This reminds me of a wonderful Hindu sailing poverb:
Pray, but steer clear of those rocks.
Heh.
I just don't get it.. when a doctor operates and either saves a patient's life or changes it for the better, God is thanked not the doctor? What?
God could have prevented the problem in the first place.. Why did God create or let happen the baby with a hole in the heart in the first place? Like you perfectly explained, several years ago that baby would have died.. but nowdays the same baby has a chance to live.. because of science, learning, doctors.. in other words because of humans.
christlovedeaf
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I've ben putting both side in both the neg and the poz and pointing it out. Why ignoring it and put the blame on God and keep repeating it. All I see is looking for fault on christians and blame christians and blame God ajnd taking it out where there is no God and etc. Thinking we are in heaven on earth, it doesn't not work that way. Its part of life and sins taking it tolls. The problem is doesn't want to hear the outcome of christians. And throw all the poz of christians out and constantantly badgering on christians. Like I've been said, christians also have the right POV. Christians isn't only put on judgements, bec humanist also put on judgement on christians likewise. Its not christians, its individual, bec al are not the same.
"Science is the power of mankind."
netrox- That's correct.
CyberRed, proof of that, please.
Christlovesdeaf- "God gives rain and sunshine to both good and evil." It doesn't bother you that God made both good and evil?
It wouldn't have mattered if you prayed or not. The same outcome will have happened. It's called "coincidence." Sure, your sister got all better but what about the other twenty people that prayed and died? You always hear about the few prayers that "worked" but you never hear about the countless ones that wasn't "answered."
Is anybody actually reading God is Imaginary - 50 simple proofs No? Ok. I'll post other proof here.
Geez. Tough choices...
Ok. I'll post proof number six. Hopefully, it'll show the Christians that prayer is useless.
Proof #6 - Ponder God's Plan
"God's plan" is the way that Christians traditionally explain things like amputations, cancer, hurricanes and car accidents. For example, if a Christian dies a painful and tragic death because of cancer, she dies as part of God's plan. Her death has a purpose. God called her home for a reason. Even if something bad happens to a Christian, it is actually good because it is part of God's plan.
You can see how pervasive "God's plan" is by looking in Christian inspirational literature. For example, if we look in the book A Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren, we find this remarkable paragraph in Chapter 2:
Because God made you for a reason, he also decided when you would be born and how long you would live. He planned the days of your life in advance, choosing the exact time of your birth and death. The Bible says, "You saw me before I was born and scheduled each day of my life before I began to breathe. Every day was recorded in your book!" [Psalm 139:16]
There is also this:
Regardless of the circumstances of your birth or who your parents are, God had a plan in creating you.
Under this view of the universe, God plans everything.
Take a moment and think about what Rick Warren said. Rick said, "He planned the days of your life in advance, choosing the exact time of your birth and death." Let's examine one simple implication of this statement. What this means is that God has pre-planned every abortion that has taken place on our planet.
If you think about this implication for a few moments, you will begin to realize how impossible "God's plan" is. If the concept of "God's plan" is true, you can first of all see that God wants us to be aborting children. Every single abortion is planned by God, so God must be doing it for a reason. Second, you can see that both the mother who requests the abortion and the doctor who performs it are blameless. Since it is God who planned the abortion of the child (God chose the "exact time" of the death, according to Rick Warren), the mother and doctor are simply puppets who are fulfilling God's plan. You can also see that all the Christians who are fighting against abortion are missing the point. They are actually fighting against God's plan, and their fight is completely futile. God is the all-powerful ruler of the universe, and his plan is for more than a million children a year to die in the United States through abortion. [ref] Each one of those abortions was meticulously planned by God, so fighting against abortion is a totally wasted effort.
If you are a Christian, what you are thinking is, "God does not intend for us to perform abortions!" But if you believe what Rick is saying, then you are obviously incorrect. God is actually the direct cause of every abortion on earth. If you find that notion to be uncomfortable, I would agree with you. Unfortunately, that is the logical outcome of God's plan.
Think about Adolph Hitler. He was evil incarnate, and Hitler is well known for the atrocious things he did. What I would like you to do right now is to consider this statement: "Hitler is part of God's Plan." Think about what Rick said:
He planned the days of your life in advance, choosing the exact time of your birth and death. The Bible says, "You saw me before I was born and scheduled each day of my life before I began to breathe. Every day was recorded in your book!" [Psalm 139:16]
Rick also says:
God never does anything accidentally, and he never makes mistakes. He has a reason for everything he creates. Every plant and every animal was planned by God, and every person was designed with a purpose in mind.
If God has a divine plan for each of us, then he had a divine plan for Hitler too. It is when you stop to think about it deeply that the contradictions hit you.
Now let's imagine that you say a prayer in this sort of universe. What difference does it make? God has his plan, and that plan is running down its track like a freight train. If God has a plan, then everyone who died in the Holocaust died for a reason. They had to die, and each death had meaning. Therefore, Holocaust victims could pray all day, and they would still die. The idea of a "plan" makes the idea of a "prayer-answering relationship with God" ridiculous. Yet Christians attach themselves to both ideas, despite the irresolvable contradiction.
Think about what God's plan means for you personally. If the plan happens to say that you will get hit by a bus tomorrow, or that terrorists will blow you up, or that you will be shot in the head four times, then that's what will happen. It would be the same with any disease. If you contract cancer this afternoon and die three months later, that is God's plan for you. Praying to cure the cancer is a waste. God plans for you to die, so you will die. He has pre-programmed the exact time of your death. There is nothing you can do to change the plan -- no amount of prayer will help -- because your death will have meaning and your death will cause side-effects that are also part of the plan.
Who will you marry? You actually have no choice in the matter. God has pre-planned your wedding in minute detail. Rick Warren says, "God knew that those two individuals [your parents] possessed exactly the right genetic makeup to create the custom 'you' that he had in mind. They had the DNA God wanted to make you." Therefore, your spouse was pre-chosen by God for you so that you would create the children who are a part of his plan. You also have no choice in the number of children you will have -- God has pre-planned their births.
In addition, this sort of universe means that Hitler is blameless. Hitler was not "evil," because Hitler had no free will at all. Hitler was simply an actor forced to play his role in God's plan. God planned for millions of people to die in the Holocaust -- he planned their deaths in exact detail according to Rick Warren. Hitler had to kill those people. Hitler was God's puppet in making that those millions of deaths happen right on schedule.
In the same way then, every murderer is blameless. Since God has planned each of our deaths in exact detail, murderers are actually essential to God's plan. Why do we punish them? We should be rewarding them for doing their God-planned duty. What if you get raped tomorrow and get pregnant? God did that because he planned the exact time of that child's birth and death. God actually pre-planned your rape, and the rapist was God's puppet. Rather than hating the rapist, we should celebrate God's plan.
Do you believe that murderers and rapists should be rewarded? Do you believe that Hitler was sent by God to kill millions of people in the Holocaust? Do you believe that God is the direct cause of every abortion on this planet? Do you believe that you have no choice in your spouse or the number of children you have? If you are a sane individual, then probably not. But that is what you are saying when you state that Hitler or cancer or anything else is part of "God's plan."
The statement "It is part of God's plan" is one of those meaningless palliatives that, when you sit down and think it through using your common sense, makes no sense. That lack of sense shows us how imaginary God is.
netrox- That's correct.
CyberRed, proof of that, please.
Christlovesdeaf- "God gives rain and sunshine to both good and evil." It doesn't bother you that God made both good and evil?
It wouldn't have mattered if you prayed or not. The same outcome will have happened. It's called "coincidence." Sure, your sister got all better but what about the other twenty people that prayed and died? You always hear about the few prayers that "worked" but you never hear about the countless ones that wasn't "answered."
Is anybody actually reading God is Imaginary - 50 simple proofs No? Ok. I'll post other proof here.
Geez. Tough choices...
Ok. I'll post proof number six. Hopefully, it'll show the Christians that prayer is useless.
Proof #6 - Ponder God's Plan
"God's plan" is the way that Christians traditionally explain things like amputations, cancer, hurricanes and car accidents. For example, if a Christian dies a painful and tragic death because of cancer, she dies as part of God's plan. Her death has a purpose. God called her home for a reason. Even if something bad happens to a Christian, it is actually good because it is part of God's plan.
You can see how pervasive "God's plan" is by looking in Christian inspirational literature. For example, if we look in the book A Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren, we find this remarkable paragraph in Chapter 2:
Because God made you for a reason, he also decided when you would be born and how long you would live. He planned the days of your life in advance, choosing the exact time of your birth and death. The Bible says, "You saw me before I was born and scheduled each day of my life before I began to breathe. Every day was recorded in your book!" [Psalm 139:16]
There is also this:
Regardless of the circumstances of your birth or who your parents are, God had a plan in creating you.
Under this view of the universe, God plans everything.
Take a moment and think about what Rick Warren said. Rick said, "He planned the days of your life in advance, choosing the exact time of your birth and death." Let's examine one simple implication of this statement. What this means is that God has pre-planned every abortion that has taken place on our planet.
If you think about this implication for a few moments, you will begin to realize how impossible "God's plan" is. If the concept of "God's plan" is true, you can first of all see that God wants us to be aborting children. Every single abortion is planned by God, so God must be doing it for a reason. Second, you can see that both the mother who requests the abortion and the doctor who performs it are blameless. Since it is God who planned the abortion of the child (God chose the "exact time" of the death, according to Rick Warren), the mother and doctor are simply puppets who are fulfilling God's plan. You can also see that all the Christians who are fighting against abortion are missing the point. They are actually fighting against God's plan, and their fight is completely futile. God is the all-powerful ruler of the universe, and his plan is for more than a million children a year to die in the United States through abortion. [ref] Each one of those abortions was meticulously planned by God, so fighting against abortion is a totally wasted effort.
If you are a Christian, what you are thinking is, "God does not intend for us to perform abortions!" But if you believe what Rick is saying, then you are obviously incorrect. God is actually the direct cause of every abortion on earth. If you find that notion to be uncomfortable, I would agree with you. Unfortunately, that is the logical outcome of God's plan.
Think about Adolph Hitler. He was evil incarnate, and Hitler is well known for the atrocious things he did. What I would like you to do right now is to consider this statement: "Hitler is part of God's Plan." Think about what Rick said:
He planned the days of your life in advance, choosing the exact time of your birth and death. The Bible says, "You saw me before I was born and scheduled each day of my life before I began to breathe. Every day was recorded in your book!" [Psalm 139:16]
Rick also says:
God never does anything accidentally, and he never makes mistakes. He has a reason for everything he creates. Every plant and every animal was planned by God, and every person was designed with a purpose in mind.
If God has a divine plan for each of us, then he had a divine plan for Hitler too. It is when you stop to think about it deeply that the contradictions hit you.
Now let's imagine that you say a prayer in this sort of universe. What difference does it make? God has his plan, and that plan is running down its track like a freight train. If God has a plan, then everyone who died in the Holocaust died for a reason. They had to die, and each death had meaning. Therefore, Holocaust victims could pray all day, and they would still die. The idea of a "plan" makes the idea of a "prayer-answering relationship with God" ridiculous. Yet Christians attach themselves to both ideas, despite the irresolvable contradiction.
Think about what God's plan means for you personally. If the plan happens to say that you will get hit by a bus tomorrow, or that terrorists will blow you up, or that you will be shot in the head four times, then that's what will happen. It would be the same with any disease. If you contract cancer this afternoon and die three months later, that is God's plan for you. Praying to cure the cancer is a waste. God plans for you to die, so you will die. He has pre-programmed the exact time of your death. There is nothing you can do to change the plan -- no amount of prayer will help -- because your death will have meaning and your death will cause side-effects that are also part of the plan.
Who will you marry? You actually have no choice in the matter. God has pre-planned your wedding in minute detail. Rick Warren says, "God knew that those two individuals [your parents] possessed exactly the right genetic makeup to create the custom 'you' that he had in mind. They had the DNA God wanted to make you." Therefore, your spouse was pre-chosen by God for you so that you would create the children who are a part of his plan. You also have no choice in the number of children you will have -- God has pre-planned their births.
In addition, this sort of universe means that Hitler is blameless. Hitler was not "evil," because Hitler had no free will at all. Hitler was simply an actor forced to play his role in God's plan. God planned for millions of people to die in the Holocaust -- he planned their deaths in exact detail according to Rick Warren. Hitler had to kill those people. Hitler was God's puppet in making that those millions of deaths happen right on schedule.
In the same way then, every murderer is blameless. Since God has planned each of our deaths in exact detail, murderers are actually essential to God's plan. Why do we punish them? We should be rewarding them for doing their God-planned duty. What if you get raped tomorrow and get pregnant? God did that because he planned the exact time of that child's birth and death. God actually pre-planned your rape, and the rapist was God's puppet. Rather than hating the rapist, we should celebrate God's plan.
Do you believe that murderers and rapists should be rewarded? Do you believe that Hitler was sent by God to kill millions of people in the Holocaust? Do you believe that God is the direct cause of every abortion on this planet? Do you believe that you have no choice in your spouse or the number of children you have? If you are a sane individual, then probably not. But that is what you are saying when you state that Hitler or cancer or anything else is part of "God's plan."
The statement "It is part of God's plan" is one of those meaningless palliatives that, when you sit down and think it through using your common sense, makes no sense. That lack of sense shows us how imaginary God is.
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Matthew 17:20
" And he saith unto them, Because of your little faith: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. "
And, there's also another one ...
1 Corinthians 13:2
" And if I have [the gift of] prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. "
Faith is a condition for answered petitions :
Mark 11:24
" Therefore I say unto you, All things whatsoever ye pray and ask for, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. "
Believers do not receive what they pray for because they pray from selfish motives :
James 4:2-3
" Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and covet, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war; ye have not, because ye ask not. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may spend [it] in your pleasures. "
Prayers are also hindered by corrupted character :
James 4:7
" Be subject therefore unto God; but resist the devil, and he will flee from you. "
Or injured relationships :
Matthew 5:23-24
" If therefore thou art offering thy gift at the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee, leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way, first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. "
Prayer makes a difference in what happens. Prayer will lead to a greater communion with God and a greater understandin' of His will.
christlovedeaf
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EagleCherokee63
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Horrraaarrryyyy!!!! YAYA!!! AMEN!!
christlovedeaf
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Thought my response showed, but not, bec too long of ur POV. But, to you be confusion. No, that's not how that works how God so called divine purpose for being evil like Hitler. Let me put it this way, a woman name Joyce Meyers, she was raised by sexual abused family, thru her growing up, she had lot of bitterness, anger, blaming and etc, but with God as she grew to know the Lord, things begin to change perspective and healing follows. Even greeks, romans, babylobnians, egyptians thinks we use imaginary God. Psalmist wrote about why You (God) blessed the wicked and rightrow suffers, God answered you will suffer little while, but they will suffer eternally. This world is has sin dominions and we are living in the world of darkness, Jesus came to save for those who are call on His Name. Coincidence is one of the nauseating word. Like earthquake and darknessfell when Jesus died, scientist said its coincidence, Jesus was born, the the unique star shine, oh that's coincidence and on they go. There's so much die hard try to find "proof", which they have none. So many many verses how they quote and miss all the point, the meaning and etc. Even tho, you don't even see me say with smart mouth like, easy,you don't know nothing, they are so stupid and etc it goes and constantly saying it. Its like you can and have a right to POV I don't. God involve science, bec He's the One creating that, but humans try and try to outsmart God and claiming there isn't any God. But they still struggle without proof.
EagleCherokee63
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There is many things that we don't understand what God has plans for us. See this KJV Bible:
Daniel 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Hosea 14:9 Who [is] wise, and he shall understand these [things]? prudent, and he shall know them? for the ways of the LORD [are] right, and the just shall walk in them: but the transgressors shall fall therein.
christlovedeaf
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Here's good example. Prayer is invlove worship and relational. Just like husband and wife. Does relational great when spouse doesn't see each other 1 whole year? Sin blocked us, G od plan salvation, the cross is like a bridge, phone line connected. Holy Spirit is more like phone line to reach God. Sin power interferes. This is the whole message is about, SALVATION.
EagleCherokee63
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True! Joyce Meyer is a wonderful person!
SoPoXC08, I wanted to tell you a story that I met Joyce Meyer in 1992 at my former church. It was a ladies meeting and dinner together. Joyce Meyer was sharing about her life was in a TERRIBLE situation! She is a very brave lady and alot of guts to share. She was molested and abused sexually by dad when she was a little girl. My thought "Ohhh man! Thanks God that my dad was not that kind of person to be sexually abusing me! Like what you was explaining why did God planned it or not in your view. When you see something it is totally opposite from your life, I ran toward my father's laps and kissed on my cheeks. I told my father that Joyce Meyer was sexually abused and you don't do that to me! My dad said "Wait a minute!" My father explained to me about the Bible. Dad said to me that I am not that kind to you. My father was following with the Lord with our Holy body. Dad told me that those other people are not following with Lord's teaching. That is why God made us people because he was the One who created in His image to honoring Him with our Holy body. I finally realized that myself that was thankful to my dad what he was telling me because I used to be really fussy myself. My dad told me that we cannot blamed other people because they can choose to serve with God or Satan. That is why I was heartbroken and crying about this. I am very happy for Joyce Meyer is motivated to helping other people in a very difficult situations. This is to sharing with you from your posting #116. If you read the Bible everyday and you will be able to UNDERSTAND better and grow spiritually.
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That reference has nothing to do with God "making" good and evil. He doesn't make good and evil.
This verse:
Matthew 5:45
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
...states that when God sends rain to water the crops of the good man (who perhaps prayed for that rain), that same rain waters the crops of the evil man.
How do you know that?
Yes, their prayers were answered. They got a different answer.
The faith of true born again Christians is not dependent on website links. We trust the God of the ages, the Creator, the Great "I Am", as He guides us in His Word, the Holy Bible, thru the discernment and conviction of the Holy Spirit, and our fellowship with the Father in prayer in Jesus' name.
God's plan is perfect and good. Mankind's disobedience and rebellion have corrupted God's plan. Adam and Eve's original sin put the curse on the earth that started the downward direction of decay and death. That doesn't make terminal cancer "good". Cancer is still "bad". Cancer is a result of our sin-weakened bodies existing in a sin-cursed environment, practicing sinful behaviors. (I'm not saying that the individual who has cancer necessarily did anything to get the cancer; the whole environment is so off course from God's original creation that it leaves many innocent victims in its wake.)
I prefer to go to the inspirational source--the Bible. I haven't read Mr. Warren's book. Since I don't follow his book, I'm not really interested in someone's interpretation of it.
People have free will. Whatever actions they do, they are responsible for the consequences. They are not blameless. They are in rebellion against God's plan.
God is perfect; He makes no mistakes. His creatures (us) make lots of mistakes.
Do you mean Hitler was possessed by a demon? That's possible. He could have surrendered his will to Satan.
God's divine plan for each of us is to accept Jesus as Savior, and live in holy obedience to Him. It's obvious that Hitler rebelled against that plan.
Don't forget that God doesn't hear (pay attention to) all prayers.
He doesn't hear the prayers of non-believers.
He doesn't hear the prayers of believers who have unconfessed sin in their hearts.
He doesn't hear prayers that are made with wrong intents.
He doesn't hear prayers that would require forcing people to act against their free will.
Whether I die today or 40 years from now, the end result is the same--eternal life with my Lord and Savior.
Did you know that not everyone who contracts cancer dies from cancer? Why do you assume that each person who gets cancer will die from it?
God's creation and control of the universe is the only thing that does make sense.
Do you really think your life is just so much flotsam and jetsam, at the mercy of the winds of coincidence on this planet and then it's over? To me, that is meaningless.
Psalms 14:1; 53:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
Proverb 1:7
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Psalm 111:10
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
Proverb 3:13
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.
EagleCherokee63
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*nodding, I know what you mean*
I THANK the doctor/Science for save people´s life thru their OWN hands. I find sad that the people who worship any religions whom think it´s God who did, not Doctor/Science. Who saves my life, then thank them directly.
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Let me to ask you question.
Example: How do you find out that you have a cancer? Did God inform you that you have a cancer?
If you want to have your cancer to remove when the doctor said that you have a good chance to have your cancer remove...
Would you let the doctor to remove cancer for you?
or Would you rather to pray the God for their help to cure your cancer because you are 110% faith to God & beleive in God with all your heart, mind & the soul and know that God cure your health?
Do you think the pray to save your risk life than doctor do?
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