How many ASL numbers should I be able to “receive” in a row?

[Jazzberry]

Note: I quoted Beach girl out of order

Interesting how you're doing it, Jazzberry. Wonder if it will start to get easier and easier for you.

I sure hope so!

I remember reading something a long time ago, in the context of developing the U.S. phone system, that most people can remember 5 numbers easily. Since more numbers than that were needed for city phone networks, the decision was made to go with words to represent the first 2 numbers. So we had "Beechwood 4-5789" (you know you're old if you remember that song!), and such things.

Now it seems people can remember 7 numbers easily enough, since we finally did away with the initial word for phone numbers.

Very interesting! I can usually remember numbers if I have a chance to memorize it -- but there's probably no time to do that in a typical signed conversation.

I was getting frustrated with my results at asl.bz so I started googling for tips on how to improve the ability to memorize numbers and short term memory.

Found several interesting tips on how to improve memory in general but nothing really on how to remember a long number that had just been signed to me. Except for the general idea that its helpful when memorizing something to memorize it at least two different ways. That's why I started visualizing writing it down inside my head.

This is off topic. Because of this I also had an easier time at the grocery store earlier this week. I'll explain. Sometimes I buy whole grains and cereals by bulk. The store's system is a self-serve honor system. Every item has a 3 digit code and customers take their items and weigh it on a scale after typing in the 3 digit code. Then you print out a sticker with the name of the item (e.g., brown rice) and the price and slap it on your bagged item.

Well, if I'm getting a handful of items, I often mess up the 3 digit code or I may even have to write it down. But after surfing on the web I have a new system now. I read the 3 digit code, then I pretended (in my head) that I was pressing the buttons on a cell phone. When it was time to input the code into the scale, I just pretend that I was pressing the buttons on my cell phone, and I was able to recall all the 3 digit codes. Pretty cool trick.

There are different types of aids to remember numbers, so chances are if one method doesn't work for you, another one will.

 

[Beach girl]

Very clever!

 

[Grummer]

I get that its visual, but why isn't it linear?

sign is 4 dimensional langauge that is space and time (timing) x,y,z, and time.
speech is 1 dimensional language in an array which is why they have 'noun , verbs, promouns, in a certain order of grammer/syntax dictated by whatever a spoken language is used ie, german in germany - they have noun right at the end of the sentence (similar to sign!)...

sign is not linear it is spatial

 

[Jazzberry]

sign is 4 dimensional langauge that is space and time (timing) x,y,z, and time.
speech is 1 dimensional language in an array which is why they have 'noun , verbs, promouns, in a certain order of grammer/syntax dictated by whatever a spoken language is used ie, german in germany - they have noun right at the end of the sentence (similar to sign!)...

sign is not linear it is spatial

I get that ASL is spatial but I always thought that it was still linear also because, AFAIK, its not OK to sign in any order that you like. And while the signs are coming in from a variety of locations, they are still for the most part being signed sequentially. I realize that facial expressions and head shaking can happen simultaneuosly - but in spoken language how words are stressed or stretched out or said very quickly or being said slightly louder or quieter compared to the other words being said at around the same time also adds a lot of information to the conversation simultaneously. ( Much to my distress because I've always been HoH so that has been hard for me to incorporate into my speech in a way pleasing to hearies' ears. )

FWIW, as far as I can tell, ASL and spoken languages seem to have more in common than what is generally acknowledged. And I'm probably being a real smart aleck because I can barely sign and I already have an opinion! ops: Please don't kick me out from the AD Forum! But to be fair I'm also basing my opinion on what I read at Bill Vicar's web sites where he explains how ASL does provide tense information and how facial expressions takes the place of the "is", "are", and "were" verbs.

But I also think that PFH was commenting about my thinking having changed from linear to non-linear. Which is entirely possible cuz after spending time on some of the ASL web sites my brain feels scrambled! And scrambled is not linear!

 

[Tousi]

To practice "reading" numbers? asl.bz

Thanks; I checked it out and I agree with PFH.......

 

[dereksbicycles]

Don't worry about speed. My girlfriend is slow with learning ASL, but she works hard and wants to learn ASL. I think that hard work trumpets God given talent.

 

[jillio]

At this web site: asl.bz I’m having trouble “receiving” numbers that are 4 digits or longer correctly. Up to 3 digits I usually have no problems.

I’m doing much better with “receiving” fingerspelled words at asltrainer.com. I think that's because I’m sounding off the letters to myself as I see them, so I can remember the sounds long enough to get the word. I still have trouble with letter combinations where the individual letters don’t sound like their combination like “ght” or “ought”, but I seem to be getting there.

But I’m still having trouble with long numbers. I can type them in as I see them and get it that way but would it be a good idea for me to be able to remember the entire number after its been signed? If the tool gives me the number 9, 874 and I sound it off to myself saying thousand and hundred, I fall behind the tool. If I just try to sound off the numbers sometimes I sometimes type them in a different order than they were sent. If the number is longer than 4 digits sometimes I still get an individual digit completely wrong.

Is this a goal worth trying to go for? IRL, when I ask for a phone number I usually ask people to write it down or put it into my cell phone themselves. And when I'm at work I usually get the numbers I need from an e-mail or a hard copy. So, practically speaking, is being able to read off a max of 3 numbers correctly good enough?

Hope this post makes sense! TIA

Actually, if I get what you are asking correctly, our immediate memory holds digits best in groups of 3 or 4 digits. Have you tried grouping by 3's or 4's?

 

[jillio]

I get that ASL is spatial but I always thought that it was still linear also because, AFAIK, its not OK to sign in any order that you like. And while the signs are coming in from a variety of locations, they are still for the most part being signed sequentially. I realize that facial expressions and head shaking can happen simultaneuosly - but in spoken language how words are stressed or stretched out or said very quickly or being said slightly louder or quieter compared to the other words being said at around the same time also adds a lot of information to the conversation simultaneously. ( Much to my distress because I've always been HoH so that has been hard for me to incorporate into my speech in a way pleasing to hearies' ears. )

FWIW, as far as I can tell, ASL and spoken languages seem to have more in common than what is generally acknowledged. And I'm probably being a real smart aleck because I can barely sign and I already have an opinion! ops: Please don't kick me out from the AD Forum! But to be fair I'm also basing my opinion on what I read at Bill Vicar's web sites where he explains how ASL does provide tense information and how facial expressions takes the place of the "is", "are", and "were" verbs.

But I also think that PFH was commenting about my thinking having changed from linear to non-linear. Which is entirely possible cuz after spending time on some of the ASL web sites my brain feels scrambled! And scrambled is not linear!

No, ASL is not linear. It is time oriented and spatial. Languages based on auditory/oral principles are linear. Therefore, English, being an auditory orally based language, developed for the processing of the auditory system, is linear. The visual system processes information in a time oriented and spatial manner. Therefore, the syntax of ASL is arranged to cater to that form of processing.

 

[Jazzberry]

Thanks; I checked it out and I agree with PFH.......

Well, assuming that you and PFH are expert signers -- hopefully one day I'll have a better understanding of what you are talking about. As for now, I still see it as I described in post #24. {shrug}

Oh, FWIW, when I practice my finger spelling I have started visualizing the letters while sounding them out -- but doing more visualizing than sounding out because its still a little hard for me to do both at the same time.

It's helping, esp. with the longer words and the words where the individual letters make a different sound when they are grouped together -- like ought, ight, tion, kn, etc. Also, vowels can of course be pronounced a few different ways in English. If I had guessed wrong which way the word was going to be pronounced I wasn't always able to come up with the right second guess, esp. if it was a long word. But by visualizing the letters in addition to sounding them out -- I usually can.

 

[Jazzberry]

Don't worry about speed. My girlfriend is slow with learning ASL, but she works hard and wants to learn ASL. I think that hard work trumpets God given talent.

Thanks Derek, I certainly hope so! I'm just trying to keep up a steady effort. I'm going through the Lifeprint lessons and I average about a lesson a week, while still setting aside a few mins a day to review the words I learned the weeks before. (Well, most days -- I don't practice everyday!)

 

[Jazzberry]

Actually, if I get what you are asking correctly, our immediate memory holds digits best in groups of 3 or 4 digits. Have you tried grouping by 3's or 4's?

If I were practicing with another person I'd think I'd suggest that we pause at every thousand mark (where the comma goes in a long number -- in case I'm not expressing that correctly). But it's a software program on a web site ( asl.bz ) and it just keeps going at a steady pace. I don't know if that is how people actually sign numbers in real life. I would guess probably not?

But for learning purposes I can't really control the program. The best I can do is just limit the program to not giving me any numbers larger than 999 or 9,999. I do OK with 999 or smaller and I am getting better at 1,000 - 9,999 -- but I'm sure I could improve!

 

[jillio]

If I were practicing with another person I'd think I'd suggest that we pause at every thousand mark (where the comma goes in a long number -- in case I'm not expressing that correctly). But it's a software program on a web site ( asl.bz ) and it just keeps going at a steady pace. I don't know if that is how people actually sign numbers in real life. I would guess probably not?

But for learning purposes I can't really control the program. The best I can do is just limit the program to not giving me any numbers larger than 999 or 9,999. I do OK with 999 or smaller and I am getting better at 1,000 - 9,999 -- but I'm sure I could improve!

I tend to sign numbers with the same rhythm I would use in remembering them so I think you are correct about that. But you could still group them in 3's or 4's. As you recognize the number simply group it in your mind. For instance, the number 156,342,876 As you put it in your mind, think (156) (342) (876). It is kind of like memorizing your SS#. When you say your social security number, most people will do it in the way the digits are grouped.

 

[Jazzberry]

No, ASL is not linear. It is time oriented and spatial. Languages based on auditory/oral principles are linear.

<snip>

Here's what I don't understand. It seems to me that in both spoken and signed languages more than one piece of information is often being given at the same time. So that being the case, I don't see why spoken language is considered any more linear than ASL is.

Pacing of the speech, stress of the words, pitch, volume, they all add meaning to the words.

For example -- I've been told that if two people are on the phone one can signal the other that they want to finish the call soon. They can do that by slowing down their speech and talking a little louder. It's their version of the SK SK signal on old fashioned TTY calls. In other words, even though no one uses SK SK on regular phone calls, its usually not a shock when one person says good bye. By the time that happens both people, assuming that they both hear well and are skilled at verbal communication, will be expecting it. And since those signals indicating that the telephone call is going to be finished soon happen at the same time that they are speaking, this is simultaneous information and, IMHO, is not anymore linear than the typical information signed in ASL information along with the NMM (non-manual markers).

Just like ASL has NMM, I would think that we could describe the similar things that are occuring in spoken languages as NWM (non-word markers). I learned about the concept of NMMs from Bill Vicars' website: lifeprint.com. Perhaps linguists have a term for what I call NWMs.

Here's another example of how simultaneous information can be given verbally:

The meaning of this sentence:

"Peter doesn't want to buy that car." can change depending upon which word is stressed.

For example if the first word is stressed:

Peter doesn't want to buy that car -- then it probably means that someone else does.

And if the fifth word is stressed:

Peter doesn't want to buy that car -- then it probably means that Peter will lease the car instead.

Four more examples of what that sentence could mean, depending upon which word is stressed, is at this link.

And facial expression is important in spoken language too, although in some hearing circles you can get away without using facial expressions well -- but it definitely is important to the meaning of communication even in spoken language.

FWIW, I think I'm pushing these points because I had to really work hard to understand and use them in the past:

* I had to work on how to consciously think about how to appropriately stress my speech since I didn't hear well enough to pick this up on my own.

* I also needed help in adjusting the pitch of my voice so that it would be more pleasing to the ears of those without hearing loss. But pitch isn't just about esthetics, it also conveys information to hearies.

* Telephone conversations use to stress me out for years until I figured out that there most be some unspoken cues going on that I didn't know about. And the reason I finally got to find out about them was because I met d/HoH people who used TTYs so I started using them sometimes.

After my first couple of TTY calls, I asked someone who was 'late- deafened', "So what do hearing people do since they don't have the SK convention? "

She replied, "Oh, but they do!" , then she explained it to me.

 

[Jazzberry]

I tend to sign numbers with the same rhythm I would use in remembering them so I think you are correct about that. But you could still group them in 3's or 4's. As you recognize the number simply group it in your mind. For instance, the number 156,342,876 As you put it in your mind, think (156) (342) (876). It is kind of like memorizing your SS#. When you say your social security number, most people will do it in the way the digits are grouped.

Thanks, I'll give that a try after I get better with numbers that are only 4 digits long.