Hearies view on a CI kid... its a bummer

[jackiesolorzano]

Jackie, shame on you! Have you forgotten that we are not allowed to speak about our children--only Jill is allowed to tell us about her child and her parenting skills.

Actually, the initial post is about some unidentified woman in a school. We are not even told what her position is. She is in fact, talking about an individual child with a cochlear implant.

It was you and the usual suspects who bootstrapped the comment into an indictment of all educators in the mainstream and in oral programs. So in fact, actually Jackie, as both an educator in an oral school and the parent of two children with cochlear implants, has a point of view that is the most credible on this issue. Instead of trying to prevent her from discussing her point of view, you should have asked her to expand upon it.
Rick

It's OK even if Jillo was trying to stop me from talking about my children it would be impossible that goes also with what I do for a living. Oral deaf education is in every part of my life.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Cheri, before I start commenting on your replies ANSWER THIS, please:

Do you understand what that means:

Do you understand that there is practically NO POINT in implanting born deaf a child PAST the age of THREE?



Fuzzy

I agree with you that it is important to implant before three but if the parents are willing to do the work it can be done after three but it requires a lot more work. My son was implant at 3.2 years. That first uear but he did manager to catch.

 

[jillio]

To Fuzzy..since u keep making a big stink about how I share my experiences of working with children who do not benefit from their CIs. It seems like unless I know why, I cant post about my experiences with them. Why is it important I must know why they werent able to benefit from their CIs?

I know of few reasons why kids dont benefit from their CIs

the processor doesnt work
the internal parts dont work
the family dont put in much time in AVT therapy
the therapists in AVT didnt do a good job
the child was unable to process the sounds into meaningful concepts
the child has additional needs

Frankly, shel, sometimes knowing why is useless, because it simply doesn't change what it. Educators need only to know what is, because that is what they must work with. To facilitate a child's language development, you don't need to know why they don't hear well with their CI, and thius are langauge delayed. You only need to know that they don't in order to take the steps necessary to improve their language skills.

I know WHY my son is deaf, but it still doesn't change the fact that he IS deaf. The why has never been a consideration. I didn't need to deal with WHY only with IS.For those who werent able to benefit from their CIs, it could be any of those reasons the the POINT is I DONT KNOW which! I cant say "hmmm ok this child didnt benefit because of A or because of B. That's just my guess." I cant make assumptions until I get the facts and since those facts are not accessible due to policies set forth at the school.

Just because I dont know which of those reasons doesnt mean I cant post about myexperiences with them. U telling me that I shouldnt post about them makes me wonder that u want to hide the dark side of CIs? It works for many and when it does, it works great but there are those that it doesnt work for. That is a fact and I will continue to post about it as long as it is still happening.

If u dont like my posts about those children, simply ignore them but do not tell me who I can post or cant post about.

Thank you

The search for why often wastes valuable time in remediating what is, and creates additional delays.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Why is there no point? I have seen children who got implanted after 3 and were able to benefit greatly from them just as I have see children who got implanted before 3 but couldnt benefit much from them.

YOu might have seen a couple but not the majority. The sooner you implant and being that everything else is in place that child will have more success. And you are right there are some kids that have great benefit if they got implanted after 3 but that is not majority.

 

[jillio]

Nobody here has ever said that a deaf person can't lead a normal health happy life.

CI's are about giving opportunities to make that life EASIER....but its not saying that a deaf person can't be happy or successful (I know many successful deaf people, so I KNOW what's possible.)

Nobody says deaf people MUST hear - but when you consider the number of deaf people who wear hearing aids - if they don't need to hear - why are they even bothering with HA's? With your statement, Pommie - one would assume that even HA's are bad because they amplify sound - why does a deaf person need amplified sound?

See how ridiculous that statement is? The same goes for CI's - nobody says anybody HAS TO HEAR...but hearing has the opportunity to make a child or adult's life easier. Yes its still a lot of work - nobody said getting a CI was a cakewalk - and if that's the attitude that somebody takes when getting one (there have been a few we've spoken to about that kind of attitude here,) then they don't deserve the CI in the first place. Its not some contraption you can implant, slap on then expect perfect hearing from. It takes hard work, and dedication by the patient/parents. If they aren't willing to make that effort then YES - you will see the failures that are continuously brought up here.

You still don't get it. To be able to perceive sound is only part of the story. You are concetrating so hard onhearing, that you totally disregard all of the other issues that are just as important, and even more responsible for the development of success, and self efficacy.

 

[jillio]

Again, you jump to conclusions. You should stop that. One of our close friends is a CODA and knows fluent sign. And even though he is inside Deaf culture, he is still able to hear. He does not experience deafness.


CI would not solve our problems. I agree. Question is; why would you deny a child to hear..... based on your own experiences???

One does not have to be deaf inorder to experience Deaf culture. Ever hear of emathetic undrstanding cloggy. I realize that it is not something you practice, but I would think that you would at least have a basic comprehension of the concept.

I don't have to be African American in order to have an empathetic understanding of the culture and the norms and values that have developed within that culture as a result of their minority status. Nor do I have to be Deaf in order to do that.

 

[shel90]

The whole point is that a child needs to experience an environment where they are able to develop self esteem and confidencde from the experience. Parents cannot give them self confidence. The child must develop it, and they can be in an envirnment that impedes it, or they can be inan environment that fosters it. That, too, is a choice that parents must make. Choosing CI or not choosing CI is only the beginning. It doesn't end there, despite the fact that so many hearing parents think that is the only decision they need to make regarding their child's experience with deafness. That "as long as I decide to implant, and they can hear something, everything else will be fine." is a harmful, destructive attitude. Again, I say, look at the whole child, not just their ears and their mouth.

Yea...wish I wasnt placed in an oral-only deaf ed program. It didnt do much for me. I am sure I would have taken off like a rocket in a BiBi environment.

 

[jillio]

Again, you jump to conclusions. You should stop that. One of our close friends is a CODA and knows fluent sign. And even though he is inside Deaf culture, he is still able to hear. He does not experience deafness.


CI would not solve our problems. I agree. Question is; why would you deny a child to hear..... based on your own experiences???

Shel has never denied a child the opportunity to hear. Where do you come up with this stuff? Are you really so narrow minded that you cannot see what is in front of you? All shel has ever said is that there are children who don't hear. How do we best benefit those children? What would you do with the children whose parents have provided them with the all important opportunity to hear, in your words, that have not received the benefit intended? What if the partents attempt to provide them withthe opportunity tohear didn't work cloggy? What then?

 

[shel90]

U know what I am seeing here...a group of members who value what goes in the ears and what comes out of the mouth, while the others value what's between the ears.

 

[jillio]

Nice abbrevation - def....

You are not deaf, so you cannot fully experience the deaf world. Still, you are comfortable there.

A person that can hear with CI is just as hearing as a hoh person. Are you telling me that a hoh person cannot feel at home in a hearing environment, but only in a deaf/silent environment.

You are wrong!

Are you really so shallow and insecure that the only way that you can feel good about yourself is to point out the errors of others? That's sad. When you have achieved perfection, you will perhaps have a solid foundation for doing so. However, as it is quite obvious that you have not reached that level, I'd suggest that you develop a bit more tolerance. If you don't want your errors pointed out, then restrain yourself from using such childish and immature tactics in your attempts to discuss the issue. It only makes the fact that you are incapable of an intelligent rebuttal glaringly obvious.

Cloggy, cloggy cloggy. An HOH person is not a hearing person. If they were, they would not be HOH. Duh!

 

[jackiesolorzano]

With the assumption that manuel meaning ASL. I was given the opportunity to learn it growing up. Finally learned it at 28 years old. That doesnt make me a proponent of a deaf child being exposed to both. I was denied exposure to Deaf culture cuz the specialists told me that I was too smart for them and didnt need ASL so I believed them. That was very unethical of them and I wish I knew what I know now back then cuz I would have reported them.

If the CI is the only thing capable of allowing the profoundly deaf children the ability to acquire spoken language then why were many profoundly deaf people without CIs, like me, were able to acquire spoken language and many implanted children not able to acquire spoken language? I think it all depends on the children themselves not the device but for those who have the mechanics to acquire spoken language, then the CI would make it easier, sure but not improve their lives. It is all about how one views him/herself.

Shel I think the difference between your oral skills and my children oral skills would be huge. I know that profoundly deaf children and adults can develop oral skills but it really is hard. You have struggle so hard. The difference with my kids is that they do not have to struggle so hard. I really do not mean to offend you but can you talk on the phone and understand what is being said to you. Can you understand everything someone is telling you with their backs turned to you.

What I am saying is that a CI makes it so much easier to be oral if that is what you want. I am not saying to you should get an implant and I would never tell you that because you are happy with the way you. What I am saying is your goal is to develop oral skills then an CI will help you.

 

[jillio]

Thank you!!! That is exactly what I am talking about on how I gained my confidence and now I dont have to worry about being constantly in an environment or around people that treat me like a 2nd class citizen. My hearing husband respected my deaf needs and worked hard to meet them and I respect his hearing needs. That is ALL it TAKES!!! Implanting children wont make those problems go away completely.

No it doesn't make the problems go away. It only gives the hearing parents another excuse to ignore them.

 

[shel90]

Shel I think the difference between your oral skills and my children oral skills would be huge. I know that profoundly deaf children and adults can develop oral skills but it really is hard. You have struggle so hard. The difference with my kids is that they do not have to struggle so hard. I really do not mean to offend you but can you talk on the phone and understand what is being said to you. Can you understand everything someone is telling you with their backs turned to you.

What I am saying is that a CI makes it so much easier to be oral if that is what you want. I am not saying to you should get an implant and I would never tell you that because you are happy with the way you. What I am saying is your goal is to develop oral skills then an CI will help you.

ASL has shown me that oral skills are not the only important thing in life and doesnt define me as a person like I used to believe by being placed in an oral-only environment. If all deaf/hoh children had both from the get go, maybe we wouldnt have all these problems.

I feel like a complete person now and I dont need good oral skills. Life is not about what comes out of the person's mouth but what comes out of the person's mind. That is my primary focus for my students.

 

[jillio]

So True Fuzzy, this is why as a teacher I love the age that I work with because I help parents realize that no matter what apporach they use they need to really focus on it during this age span. Also my son has done a lot better in school then my daughter because he was diagnosis younger, implant younger, and place in oral language rich envirnoment at younger age. And my daughter has a higher IQ, she does well in school but puts a lot more effort then my son does.

What does this have to do with the way others treat your children, and their other needs? You are focused only on their hearing and speaking. Hearing and speaking will not serve them very well if they are so impaired from emotional and adjustment problems that they are incapable of utilizing those skills to the optimal level. I'm not saying that your children are emotionally impaired, so don't get all defensive on me. I am saying, however, that this is a very real and distubing consequence to keeping a deaf child isolated in an oral environment. Perhaps you don't see it simply because you do work with younger children.

 

[jillio]

Yep and that behavior is a perfect example of the many discriminationatory behavior by hearing people towards deaf people. And hearing people wonder why deaf people are angry? Hello, there is a perfect example...criticizing one's English skills when it wasnt the deaf person's fault due to not having full access to language during the first 5 years of life.

Yep, first the hearies create the situation, then they criticize the effect it has on people! Talk about bigotry!

 

[shel90]

What does this have to do with the way others treat your children, and their other needs? You are focused only on their hearing and speaking. Hearing and pseaking will not serve them very well if they are so impaired from emotional and adjustment problems that they are incapable of utilizing those skills to the optimal level. I'm not saying that your children are emotionally impaired, so don't get all defensive on me. I am saying, however, that this is a very real and distubing consequence to keeping a deaf child isolated in an oral environment.

I just spoke with my hearing friend who just got a job as a deaf educator. She told me that where she works at is an oral-only program and I was shocked cuz she strongly believes in ASL. She said that in San Deigo, the signing programs are getting fewer so fewer jobs so I started asking her questions. She said it was a challenge for her not to sign cuz she can see that many of her students could benefit from both signing and spoken language but she is not allowed to sign with them. To me, that is denying a good quality education for deaf/hoh kids. I cant believe this BS is happening everywhere. Not allowed to sign with kids when it is apparent that they were missing out on information in the spoken environment. I feel like quitting deaf ed cuz it is just made me sick what my friend just told me. She is still going continue to apply at the signing programs cuz she feels sick daily when the other teachers push the deaf/hoh kids to use their voice and to put their hands down when they tried to sign. What the hell??????

 

[jillio]

It's OK even if Jillo was trying to stop me from talking about my children it would be impossible that goes also with what I do for a living. Oral deaf education is in every part of my life.

Jackie, jackie, jackie. Don't let him pull you into his innane attempts to inflame again. You were doing so well until he popped up again.

I was not attempting to stop you from discussing your children, simply pointing out that the topic of the discussion was not how well a child can hear or not hear with CI, but the effects of the perceptions of others on the child who is implanted. This is about the disabling effects of misperception of the whole person, not just their ability to perceive sound. I would welcome your input regarding your children on that topic.

 

[shel90]

What does this have to do with the way others treat your children, and their other needs? You are focused only on their hearing and speaking. Hearing and speaking will not serve them very well if they are so impaired from emotional and adjustment problems that they are incapable of utilizing those skills to the optimal level. I'm not saying that your children are emotionally impaired, so don't get all defensive on me. I am saying, however, that this is a very real and distubing consequence to keeping a deaf child isolated in an oral environment. Perhaps you don't see it simply because you do work with younger children.

I agree...by making the ability to hear and speak as the primary focus of the child's life will lead to bigger problems later. That's why in middle school, I purposely broke the FM system several times cuz it was my way of saying "ENOUGH is ENOUGH" about putting so much focus on my ability to hear by the teachers. Ugh!!!

 

[jillio]

I agree with you that it is important to implant before three but if the parents are willing to do the work it can be done after three but it requires a lot more work. My son was implant at 3.2 years. That first uear but he did manager to catch.

It is not just his langage that suffered delays in those first years How about all of his other developmental needs? Has he been able to complete the developmental tasks that are considered to be age appropriate as outlined by Erikson, Vygotsky, and Piaget?

 

[jillio]

YOu might have seen a couple but not the majority. The sooner you implant and being that everything else is in place that child will have more success. And you are right there are some kids that have great benefit if they got implanted after 3 but that is not majority.

In a perfect world, jackie. But it is obvious that we do not live in a perfect world, not do we function in the isolation of a laboratory or an audiologist's testing booth. There are too many extraneous variables that cannot be controlled for, but do have a tremendous impact on any one child's success.